Tomorrow comes: Legends of Tomorrow

[Osiris-Rex]

I imagine this is what he does most of the time. I think the episode before it looked like he was killing some henchmen by going through them, but I saw it as him going into their CNS and incapacitating them.

But this FANTASTIC VOYAGE type story would be better used in an episode that would give it the full treatment. As in that B&B story where Ray went inside Batman's body, or that Avengers story with Ant-Man and Vision, or that 12th Doctor and Clara story--or a Green Lantern story I remember reading in 1967 where GL went inside the body of a giant, enemy alien (he also made himself giant-size to wrestle with the alien).

On the third episode of LoT Ray shrinks down and enters Kendra's bloodstream to stop pieces of a dagger that Savage stabbed Kendra with from reaching her heart.

[Jon Clark]

Anyone else wonder if Cassandra was really Savage's daughter? I know Scandal exists in the comics, but between his obsession with Chay-ara and his lack of an army of mini-Vandals I always assumed offspring wouldn't be something Vandal valued. It even seemed he might suffer from the Highlander problem where he just couldn't father children.

I really expected part of the turning point with Cassandra would be the revelation that she wasn't Vandal's biological kid, but rather the child of some rival/enemy. Something like Vandal killed Cassandra's dad covertly. Then he comforted her mom (who was unaware that Vandal was involved in her husband's death). Cassandra upon learning this would turn against him.

Turns out I got half the idea right, though I can't tell if Cassandra's mother was an unexpected death or something Vandal knew was likely when he unleashed the virus.

[90'sCartoonMan]

Sweet episode. Probably the best one where Vandal Savage was the main antagonist, I think. Even if Kendra couldn't bring herself to kill him, at least they took him out of the equation by capturing him. Something they never seemed to be able to do before. I also liked Snart being the one to appeal to Cassandra because of father issues. Mick, even with his Time Master training, is back to his old self and the team of Killer, Klepto, and Pyro is reunited. Atom fighting Leviathan was awesome, although I wish the movements were a little faster. It felt like they were fighting on the moon or something.

It was weird that they gave us a daughter of Vandal Savage, yet it wasn't Scandal, which was disappointing. I guess maybe Savage could have sired another daughter with another lover over the course of history, but I expect "Cassandra" is the only one the shows creative team intend to focus on. It was a great opportunity for not only a complex and interesting villain from the comics, but some great LGBT representation too. I was really hoping for a Sara/Scandal meeting because there was some amazing potential with that, but oh well .

Oh man, I didn't even think of what Sara meeting Scandal would be like. Good point. I'm hoping Scandal makes it into season two, and that her backstory has her being born sometime in the 80's or 90's.

So Atom grows giant just a week before Civil War premiers. Take that Ant-Man.

I think I've decided that the Atom on LoT is the offspring of the MCU Iron Man and Ant-Man.

Cassandra switched sides because Snart confirmed what she probably already knew in her heart but refused to let herself acknowledge . . . that her father was a genocidal madman. She'd never have flipped that quickly if she hadn't already been suppressing a mountain of doubt.

Yeah, plus the fact that she saw with her own eyes that Savage was attacking innocent people and children and not enemy armies.

Guys, This is 150 years in the future. Even if Kendra lives to be an old woman after this time travel adventure, she will still eventually die. Thus: Welcome back Carter.

Starring Gabe Kaplan as Hawkman.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Guys, This is 150 years in the future. Even if Kendra lives to be an old woman after this time travel adventure, she will still eventually die. Thus: Welcome back Carter.

Yes, except that we've been told, time and again, that until our cast actually physically goes back, they're considered gone by the timeline. The future that they're in is one in which they've disappeared from the timeline until the team disbands. Thus none of the team is actually dead in this future, or even had a further impact after they vanished.

[The Darknight Detective]

Starring Gabe Kaplan as Hawkman.

"Hey Kendra, did I ever tell you about my Uncle Ramses?"

[Captain Smith]

Kendra follows in the long line of DC TV hero idiots when it comes to the fight. Arrow, Flash and Kendra - they all screw up for the never ending villain plot line. Eisenhower knew that half of the first wave at D-Day might die. That's the way it goes. Kendra - wah, wah - HawkyBird is going to forget his birthday or whatever.

[Jim Kelly]

I think they could have done more in the first half of this short season showing Rip Hunter training the Legends. I don't mean those scenes where Sara tried to train Kendra in fighting skills (Kendra still doesn't look as good as Sara in the action scenes). I mean that, being a Time Master, Rip must've gone through some deep training himself and he had to know the Legends would encounter all kinds of psychological challenges as they travelled through time. He should have done some simulations with them on board the Waverider to give them the mental toughness for the ordeals ahead.

[David Walton]

I think they could have done more in the first half of this short season showing Rip Hunter training the Legends. I don't mean those scenes where Sara tried to train Kendra in fighting skills (Kendra still doesn't look as good as Sara in the action scenes). I mean that, being a Time Master, Rip must've gone through some deep training himself and he had to know the Legends would encounter all kinds of psychological challenges as they travelled through time. He should have done some simulations with them on board the Waverider to give them the mental toughness for the ordeals ahead.

He's not great at his job, that's for sure.

That said, I'm not complaining. It certainly makes for a fun show, and creates challenges for the characters that wouldn't otherwise exist.

I would hope that he learns a bit from his mistakes in season two, though.

BTW, does anyone find it weird that the Time Masters will play so fast and loose with history to kill Rip and his crew, but they're sworn not to interfere with Vandal Savage? Wondering if there's some kind of conspiracy at work...

[Jon Clark]

BTW, does anyone find it weird that the Time Masters will play so fast and loose with history to kill Rip and his crew, but they're sworn not to interfere with Vandal Savage? Wondering if there's some kind of conspiracy at work...

No, I look at it more as the Time Masters are interested in keeping things predictable. They prefer "the devil they know".

It's like the old sci-fi trope of killing Hitler before 1933. Sure it sounds good- save all those people in the concentration camps and all those soldiers who die in those battles. But unless you plan to constantly monitor that era, how do you make sure someone else doesn't rise to power in Germany who is worse or that altering events in the 1930's doesn't create a cascade leading to worse events by 2016. Maybe without the push of war, nuclear research is slowed so the next war starts with the use of nuclear weapons. Or maybe the USSR expands further without World War II to divert Stalin's ambitions. Or any one of a zillion other possibilities that we can't predict which are worse than the history we know.

On the other hand history doesn't record anything about Rip and the team being involved in events. Removing them returns history to the predictable path where the Time masters know at the very least what 2166 looks like. They know history doesn't end in 2165 or earlier. So Rip and company are a bigger risk than Vandal as far as the Time Masters are concerned.

[The Darknight Detective]

No, I look at it more as the Time Masters are interested in keeping things predictable. They prefer "the devil they know".

It's like the old sci-fi trope of killing Hitler before 1933. Sure it sounds good- save all those people in the concentration camps and all those soldiers who die in those battles. But unless you plan to constantly monitor that era, how do you make sure someone else doesn't rise to power in Germany who is worse or that altering events in the 1930's doesn't create a cascade leading to worse events by 2016. Maybe without the push of war, nuclear research is slowed so the next war starts with the use of nuclear weapons. Or maybe the USSR expands further without World War II to divert Stalin's ambitions. Or any one of a zillion other possibilities that we can't predict which are worse than the history we know.

On the other hand history doesn't record anything about Rip and the team being involved in events. Removing them returns history to the predictable path where the Time masters know at the very least what 2166 looks like. They know history doesn't end in 2165 or earlier. So Rip and company are a bigger risk than Vandal as far as the Time Masters are concerned.

I would still have saved Edith Keeler, though, because she was really hot.

[David Walton]

No, I look at it more as the Time Masters are interested in keeping things predictable. They prefer "the devil they know".

It's like the old sci-fi trope of killing Hitler before 1933. Sure it sounds good- save all those people in the concentration camps and all those soldiers who die in those battles. But unless you plan to constantly monitor that era, how do you make sure someone else doesn't rise to power in Germany who is worse or that altering events in the 1930's doesn't create a cascade leading to worse events by 2016. Maybe without the push of war, nuclear research is slowed so the next war starts with the use of nuclear weapons. Or maybe the USSR expands further without World War II to divert Stalin's ambitions. Or any one of a zillion other possibilities that we can't predict which are worse than the history we know.

On the other hand history doesn't record anything about Rip and the team being involved in events. Removing them returns history to the predictable path where the Time masters know at the very least what 2166 looks like. They know history doesn't end in 2165 or earlier. So Rip and company are a bigger risk than Vandal as far as the Time Masters are concerned.

Well, I'd need to know some additional facts before I signed off on that.

First and foremost, does Vandal Savage's reign of evil have a natural conclusion somewhere down the line? Hitler wasn't immortal, after all. So far, we don't get any kind of answer as to what happens beyond 2166 (I think that's the right date, could be wrong).

If the Time Masters know that Vandal is somehow stopped in, say, the year 2296, and things get remarkably better for humanity from that point on, then yes, Rip could be making things worse. He might even make Savage stronger by opposing him throughout history, thus forcing him to be on his guard much sooner than he might otherwise have been.

But if the Time Masters know that Vandal's reign of terror will go on for as long as humanity exists unless they intervene, then their position isn't very defensible.

There are a lot of potential developments that could come up in the show. For instance, was Rip aware of the 2166 timeline and okay with it until his family was killed?

As an aside, my favorite Vandal Savage story is the JL two-parter "Hereafter," in which Superman is transported 30,000 years into the future. I doubt they'd ever go that direction with the story, but Vandal actually regrets ruling (and eventually destroying) humanity, so he helps Superman stop his younger self. It's a really cool twist on Savage's story.

Can you imagine Savage teaming up with the Legends of Tomorrow in the season finale?

[Jim Kelly]

Since Rip has a Gideon (but sadly not with Morena Baccarin's voice) and Eobard Thawne has a Gideon--I'd expect that the Time Masters know the timeline a few centuries beyond 2166--at least as far as Eobard Thawne's timeline. Well, if that even exists now--maybe Eddie Thawne changed all that.

It'd be nice if the Wave Rider had a simulator/holo deck/danger room. That would set up some good bottle episodes for when they need to trim their budget--because they blew all their money on special effects for Firestorm or Mr. Atom.

There's not one of us who wouldn't save Edith Keeler if given half a chance.

[Navigator]

Seems to me that Time Masters central favors Savage's agenda to the point of bias. What if he has managed to gain control of them? He always gravitates toward power. Where is there more concentrated control than the body that polices time? He has fought the Legends to a standstill repeatedly, yet we are to believe that Kendra singlehandedly got the best of him? IF HE IS ON THE WAVERIDER, IT'S BECAUSE HE WANTS TO BE! He plans to conquer all who oppose him, including time travelers. With a handful (or an army) of himself picked from different points in time, how could he be stopped? (or so he thinks)

I like the show because I like the character development, but the main antagonist bores me. The premise of stopping a non-powered immortal being the cause of this team's assembly cannot stand the test of time (pardon the metaphor). So far, Rip has shown us how time travel can be used to oppose Savage in the most ineffective ways possible. It is supposed to make Savage look tough, but instead it is making one of the most accomplished Time Masters look like a noob! That's going to get old fast; but if the group succeeds in defeating Savage, the story is over. Stopping Savage is not sufficient purpose in keeping the story fresh & exciting. The writers must know that, since the show keeps going off on tangents. It's been entertaining filler material, but the main theme needs to expand in its scope. Meeting the DC universe is fun: but Savage is eventually BORING.

Why not go back in time & destroy or divert the meteorite that makes Savage & the Hawks before it gets near Earth? No battle involved & no immortality for Savage. Maybe no Hawks, either, but they lived once, same as the rest of us. Or how about rendering Savage's parents infertile before he was conceived? Or drop him in the Sun, where his immortal highness is trapped in its gravity well throughout eternity?

One other thing to note: Stein saved H. G. Wells when he was dying, but Wells was never supposed to die as a child. That begs the possibility that someone has already messed up the timeline. Since the Legends presence there set things right, you have to wonder if their UNAUTHORIZED mission isn't ordained by time itself. Hmm

[PyroTwilight]

Yeah Vandals effects on the future are a big unanswered question. If he were to utterly conquer the world and stay as its ruler how could the Time Masters form anyway?

I do love the fan theory that the current version of the Time Masters are in cahoots with Vandal because in the current timeline he simply lives until whenever the Time Masters formed and possibly helped form it himself.

And it'll all be undone after Savage is defeated leading to a uncontrolled (by Vandal) form of the Time Masters who are more on board with Rip's actions.


I took the HG Wells dying bit as simply him having a sickness that he never realized was as dangerous as it was. Since how could it be pneumonia if he survived it?! Though yours works well too.

[David Walton]

Yeah Vandals effects on the future are a big unanswered question. If he were to utterly conquer the world and stay as its ruler how could the Time Masters form anyway?

I wonder if it's possible the Time Masters originate from a different timeline, in which Vandal Savage's reign of terror is an aberration and not one they feel needs to be dealt with. Maybe in a thousand possible timelines, Vandal is only a problem in this one.

If that's the case, then from their perspective, Rip would be like an American citizen who wants to start a war with a country that isn't a security threat because his family is in danger there.

I do love the fan theory that the current version of the Time Masters are in cahoots with Vandal because in the current timeline he simply lives until whenever the Time Masters formed and possibly helped form it himself.

It certainly wouldn't come as a surprise, given how the Time Masters have done pretty much everything in their power to prop Savage up by opposing Rip.

I took the HG Wells dying bit as simply him having a sickness that he never realized was as dangerous as it was. Since how could it be pneumonia if he survived it?! Though yours works well too.

It leaves things open to interpretation, doesn't it? I took it to mean that Stein's actions were an essential part of 'our' timeline progressing normally.

BTW, does anyone else suspect that we'll get a Back to the Future moment with Jackson, and his father will have survived because of his warning in the Pilgrim episode?

Also, my understanding is that the season was originally only a 13 episode order, and it was extended to 16.