Exaggerating Superman's Threat Level To Earth.

[Ascended]

This Superman at full power could haul the Earth on his back. Just smash the Moon into the planet and its done.

This Superman wouldn't be as much of a threat trying to conquer the world. He doesn't have as much of the public's trust as the Pre Flashpoint version did. That trust could win enough of the right people to his cause to cement his superior position.

It all depends on what he wants to do when Rogue and what state of mind he's in. If he goes wild and reckless he's an existential threat. If he wants to bring extinction he could. Dominance would be harder because someone would eventually find a way to exploit his weaknesses so he'd need allies.

This sounds pretty accurate to me.

Before Truth Superman could bench press the world's weight for days and barely sweat. Destroying everything wouldn't be a challenge, if extinction were his goal. He'd have the job done before anyone even realized what he was doing.

If he wants to take over, he has a harder time. The current DCU is much more cynical and less trusting, due mainly to the fact that superhumans are still a relatively new development and the heroic community hasn't had the time to utterly earn their trust (hey, the JSA struggled with that too). And Superman has had more than a few....unfortunate.....incidents in the public eye, including Doomed and his Year One war against Glennmorgan, which put him up against cops no one else knew were corrupt. Toss the damage Truth has done to his public profile in there, and Superman would have a harder time taking over. I think he'd still pull it off in the end, but it wouldnt be easy.

Actually, it might not even be that hard. This Superman is supposed to be Silver Age level smart (when DC remembers that) has doomsday level contingency plans in place; Phantom Zone projectors designed to move the entire earth and stuff like that. If he were so inclined, he might be able to just hit a switch and remove anyone who he thinks would be a threat to his rule. Of course, Im playing with several "if's" here.....

[victorsage]

Are there versions of Superman that could destroy the planet? As you guys and gals have said, the answer is yes. It's far from my favorite version personally. People who worry about things like "Can Superman beat Goku from DBZ?!?!?!" seem to worry about it.

Either way you need to make good stories around the character you have. One thing that should be remembered though, besides given "bad guys versions" of Clark every other version would never do such a thing by choice. Even the Golden Age Superman who did kill people wasn't some kind of monster like that, he never wanted political power. The Silver Age version was so kid friendly the worst he ever did usually was play pranks on people.

Still for what it's worth saying again, I prefer a Superman who's powers are far away from the Alien God level that some love so much.

[Agent Z]

This sounds pretty accurate to me.

Before Truth Superman could bench press the world's weight for days and barely sweat. Destroying everything wouldn't be a challenge, if extinction were his goal. He'd have the job done before anyone even realized what he was doing.

If he wants to take over, he has a harder time. The current DCU is much more cynical and less trusting, due mainly to the fact that superhumans are still a relatively new development and the heroic community hasn't had the time to utterly earn their trust (hey, the JSA struggled with that too). And Superman has had more than a few....unfortunate.....incidents in the public eye, including Doomed and his Year One war against Glennmorgan, which put him up against cops no one else knew were corrupt. Toss the damage Truth has done to his public profile in there, and Superman would have a harder time taking over. I think he'd still pull it off in the end, but it wouldnt be easy.

Actually, it might not even be that hard. This Superman is supposed to be Silver Age level smart (when DC remembers that) has doomsday level contingency plans in place; Phantom Zone projectors designed to move the entire earth and stuff like that. If he were so inclined, he might be able to just hit a switch and remove anyone who he thinks would be a threat to his rule. Of course, Im playing with several "if's" here.....

Superman was not the only character who was powerful in the Silver Age and a lot of characters are catching up in terms of feats. And humanity has been shown to not be totally helpless against powered people.

[Ascended]

Oh certainly true.

In regards to an extinction level event though, the other equally powerful characters are largely a non-issue. Superman's powerful and fast enough to break the world open before anyone would have any warning. The other people on his level would likely survive the experience and then Superman would have a serious problem, but for the world it's too late.

Likewise, if another character decided to do the same thing, it'd be over before Superman realized it too. Back in the....late Golden Age, maybe early Silver, I think, Wonder Woman could pull an entire planet with her lasso. That tells me that she could do the same as Clark; just fly up into the upper atmosphere, crash through the planet's core, and the whole thing is over before Clark has had a chance to find a phone booth.

The only exception that readily comes to mind where Superman completely outclasses everyone is actually the post-Lobdell, pre-Truth Superman. He's a world mover who can survive black holes and the void of space for months. No one else was on that level, and it would have taken the majority of the hero community to stop him if he got it in his mind to do something. But who knows if he'll return to those levels after Truth? Given the regime at DC I doubt it.

[Stanlos]

I keep seeing people talk about how Superman could end the world just by thinking about it but I think this is kind of an exaggeration

Firstly, Superman is just one guy and the world is a pretty huge place. He can't be everywhere at once. And we've seen that the government does occasionally have access to tech that can hurt metahumans or aliens. And there's also other superheroes and villains who won't take a rogue Superman lying down. Even in Injustice he wouldn't be able to do what he does without help of some sort.

So yeah, I think people kind of exaggerate how dangerous Superman would be if he went rogue.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm. I think that the level of his strength alone is a danger to earth. Add in that there are maybe two heroes that have a prayer against his unbridled power in a surprise attack and the threat begins to be fleshed oush. Add in the cheese (Sun Dips, Kryptonian and alien tech, the Mech Suit, and didn't he get an armor from WW that disabled the magic weakness? or was that a fanfic?) and it's a problem.

Nite-Wing
Now are people exaggerating Superman's threat to earth? In the context of the shared universe? yes
Superman isn't the strongest character in DC comics and there are plenty of people who can handle him
Outside of the shared universe though? yeah he's a big danger

I object! How is not the strongest? I thought that stayed the same after 52. Who is the strongest now?

[Stanlos]

Oh certainly true.

In regards to an extinction level event though, the other equally powerful characters are largely a non-issue. Superman's powerful and fast enough to break the world open before anyone would have any warning. The other people on his level would likely survive the experience and then Superman would have a serious problem, but for the world it's too late.

Likewise, if another character decided to do the same thing, it'd be over before Superman realized it too. Back in the....late Golden Age, maybe early Silver, I think, Wonder Woman could pull an entire planet with her lasso. That tells me that she could do the same as Clark; just fly up into the upper atmosphere, crash through the planet's core, and the whole thing is over before Clark has had a chance to find a phone booth.

Ascended has it. That is the scary part of having Alpha level superpowered beings or metahumans (I don't like that latter term as a catchall as say Superman, Wonder Woman, and Captain Marvel are superhumanly powerful but not because of a metagene like say Fire, Ice or like that) and what drove Max Lord to his O.M.A.C. shenanigans.

Absent a plot device of say the oracles of Themyscira, Madame Xanadu, Dr. Fate and the like people of this level can do awful things of major impacts in very little time. Captain Marvel wields the strength of the actual Hercules. That is a terrifying level of power.

Older comicbook stories were far less bound by science and rationality. Wonder Woman for example has lassoed and towed not only planets but the sun. With a smile. Look up the masses and consider the orders of magnitude. Beings with that kind of power unchecked are truly terrifying.

And that's only the physical juggernauts.

One could do a very interesting series exploring possible scenarios of this kind with say the Linear Men or whatever a la Armageddon 2001.

[Stanlos]

Superman was not the only character who was powerful in the Silver Age and a lot of characters are catching up in terms of feats. And humanity has been shown to not be totally helpless against powered people.

I keep hearing that but I don't understand it. Superman has only three peers among the superheroic community and that shrinks dramatically the tighter the quantitative range becomes.

Humans are more able as technology increases but they still have very little ability to react to a Superman that just up and decides to go to the earth's core and split it or whatever the scenario. Absent like some Precognitive working with Cameron Chase or whatever they would have little foreknowledge. I doubt an impromptu episode would have ripple to be sensed by a psychic a considerable amount of time before happening. And Supes is kinda fast (he's among the fastest being on the planet--yes, including Flashes).

With prep times, humanity could give Supes nuisance level resistance. Max's machinations had good motivation actually

[Sacred Knight]

He would certainly have to do more than just think about it to destroy the world if that was his aim. He'd have to work toward it because there'd be those trying to stop him. But basically the line to me would be at about three people: Wonder Woman, Supergirl, and Martian Manhunter. I think they have the ability to stand in his way of the destruction process. If Superman gets through them, you're then completely boned. Kara has he strength and speed to keep him from his goal. Wonder Woman, if not the speed, the strength and the tactile awareness. J'onn has the strength and mental abilities to try and distract him. Other than that, not seeing anyone who could stop him if he wanted to rip the world asunder. Maybe if the entire GL Corps banded together on Earth. But it'd have to be quite literally the entire Corps, not just a few single officers, and that'd leave the rest of the universe unsupervised.

This of course based off the current incarnations of the characters.

[Stanlos]

He would certainly have to do more than just think about it to destroy the world if that was his aim. He'd have to work toward it because there'd be those trying to stop him. But basically the line to me would be at about three people: Wonder Woman, Supergirl, and Martian Manhunter. I think they have the ability to stand in his way of the destruction process. If Superman gets through them, you're then completely boned. Kara has he strength and speed to keep him from his goal. Wonder Woman, if not the speed, the strength and the tactile awareness. J'onn has the strength and mental abilities to try and distract him. Other than that, not seeing anyone who could stop him if he wanted to rip the world asunder. Maybe if the entire GL Corps banded together on Earth. But it'd have to be quite literally the entire Corps, not just a few single officers, and that'd leave the rest of the universe unsupervised.

This of course based off the current incarnations of the characters.

I would have thought the list would be Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, and Martian Manhunter. Supergirl was handled rather handily by Supes (and I think WW--memory is totally gone right now). All of the others have had varying levels of success versus Supes but all fared better than Supergirl. I think in quantitative terms for strength and power she and Powergirl would be 5 and 6. I don't think Captain Atom's superstrength is Alpha class (although his energy casting/manipulation might be).

But regardless of perceptions of the pecking order, without warning none of them would be able to get to an evil Supes in time if he chose to do something horrific. At that level, it really doesn't take a lot of effort create an ELE.

People usually sleep on Wonder Woman's ability and levels and it is a pleasant surprise to see this less the case these days. But one of the things that people seem to forget with her is that she is indeed a speedster (and like Supes hers was there from the original design). You can find stories with H. G. Peter art with her traveling, reacting, and otherwise moving both fast as light and faster than light in the 40s. But for some reason people rarely attribute superspeed to her and some people (looking at Morrison there) try to actually impose a limit or cap on her speed. It is puzzling. While the mechanics of her powers have varied (training/mental discipline, divine benevolence at birth, and divine lineage) the fact is up until 52 'swifter than Mercury' was the thing. If any one has alpha class superspeed she should be included. It's like it's her version of superhearing/infrared vision or something.

[Agent Z]

The Flash is faster than Superman. Kyle Rayner once said his ring could split atoms. There's Zatanna, Dr Fate and various magic users. Cyborg and Blue Beetle are basically walking armories. Atlantis's magic and science can definitely be more than a challenge. Don't forget numerous pantheons and other powerful supernatural foes like the Spectre. Captain Atom and Firestorm.

There is A LOT of things in the DCU that can put Superman down.

[Stanlos]

The Flash is faster than Superman. Kyle Rayner once said his ring could split atoms. There's Zatanna, Dr Fate and various magic users. Cyborg and Blue Beetle are basically walking armories. Atlantis's magic and science can definitely be more than a challenge. Don't forget numerous pantheons and other powerful supernatural foes like the Spectre. Captain Atom and Firestorm.

There is A LOT of things in the DCU that can put Superman down.

I agree that Zatanna and Doctor Fate are mystics and thus have the means to exploit one of Superman's weaknesses. However, I don't think that is an instant win. I do think that they have a natural likelihood of getting a vision of Superman's impending rampage however if it is impromptu I think the speed of reaction would still be an issue. But with Aurakle possessed persons on speed dial in addition to their own magicks they might could come up with something.

I will have to accept that Flash is faster than Superman (the Fastest Man Alive is his thing) but I don't think he has the means to stop Superman as it would a heckuva lot easier for Supes to incapacitate Flash than vice versa. Even if their durability was similar and Supes didn't have a thousand other powers, Superman is in Flash's class so it is not a trounce. If Supes decides to strike from orbit there is nothing any of the Flash's can do.

The team of Captain Atom and Firestorm. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm! That is a formidable force and one that given Superman's physiology and vulnerabilities (all known to the DCU residents) they have a good shot to engage Supes if he isn't utilizing his speed and if he has announced his evil plan. The speed is a huge issue and a factor that winnows the list of potential successful opposers.

I agree that there are a lot of People That Might. But if it is a horrific doomsday scenario, you need People Who Can. That's a short list even with notice.

[Slaughter]

Its a lot like Nuclear War before ICBMs and fall-deadly devices like Perimeter, when a proper surprise strike could in theory win the war for one of the sides if it knocked down enough of the enemy's nuclear reserves before they could properly answer, and then tank what they can get off. First side to strike wins... in theory. Its a prisioner's dillema thing.
Now days it doesn't matter, even if you teleport nukes into Russia or something, the other side WILL paste you with nuke subs and hidden silos that launch of detection of signs of nuclear attack.

Explains why people like Maxwell Lord, Lex Luthor, Sam Lane, etc, go nuts. Its nukes - living, talking, breathing God-Men and Women. Living, multiple-use nukes. With political opinions, love lifes, nine to five jobs.

It also explains why other people trust Superman to implicitly - if he wanted to take over the world, kill everyone or even just plunder rape 'n burn, he would have done it already. So he must be logically be a good guy.

[Sacred Knight]

The Flash is faster than Superman. Kyle Rayner once said his ring could split atoms. There's Zatanna, Dr Fate and various magic users. Cyborg and Blue Beetle are basically walking armories. Atlantis's magic and science can definitely be more than a challenge. Don't forget numerous pantheons and other powerful supernatural foes like the Spectre. Captain Atom and Firestorm.

There is A LOT of things in the DCU that can put Superman down.

Thing is if his goal is so simple as to just destroy the Earth, then you have to kill him, not just hurt him or temporarily contain him. The Flash has speed but not strength. There's not a whole lot he could do other than run him into the speed force or something but we've seen examples of that being breached (Superboy Prime). Many times Superman has been shown to take on multiple GL's at once. Magic users could do damage, but unless you're you're writing him with that stupid complete helplessness to magic, you're still not going to kill him. Spectre could probably be added to the list, but his getting involved in earthly affairs is unreliable. Hence why I'm not counting Gods either, old or new. Firestorm, eh. He's never been that impressive. Shazam and Captain Atom though, I'd definitely add them to the list. Didn't think of them.

Basically if was a complete madman who wanted to just make the world burn and nothing else, there would only be a select few to have a shot at stopping him because as I said, with that simple a goal the only way to stop it is to kill him, period. The list is not that long of characters who are capable of that. At least outside of ass-pulls.

[Slaughter]

I'm surprised that "Evil Superman" is so over-exploited a theme and other super-heroes going evil not so exploited yet. Has anyone ever written a Evil Batman? Evil Green Lantern we already got. Evil Aquaman and Evil Wonder Woman already happened in Flashpoint and they were both terrifying.

Also, considering how Pre-Flashpoint Wally West did against Flashpoint Wonder Woman in Convergence, he definitively has the juice to take on Supes. Dunno if Barry ever had that level of power, but he should be able to, as well.

[Sacred Knight]

I think discussions like these, and how often they come up, is why its over-exploited a theme. Because its kinda fun to think about. Of course it does get old in printed form when done too much, and it has been done to death lately. The concept needs a breather. But it still generates discussion nonetheless.