Hickman's Writing on Avengers

[charliehustle415]

Hey guys, I apologize if this has been brought up before; but I just finished Hickman's "Time Runs Out" and "Secret Wars" and man his writing style is so infuriating!

I wanted to read it because I heard great things, so I begun with Time Runs Out volume 1. I know I should have begun from the very beginning, but I kept hearing that it is a great jumping on point. I did read the wiki before hand to prepare myself, but how could have anyone made sense of what was going if you were reading this monthly?

Why does Hickman have the need to obfuscate his plot with unnecessary name changes of established characters e.g. "The Prophet" or "Rabum Alal" for mystery's sake? Why do multiple time jumps to make the plot even more convoluted than it is? Why gloss over major important facets of story e.g. explaining away the "Black Priests" with a sentence or two, what happened to the Beyonders, how did Molecule Man become the lynchpin to the universe when he never displayed anything close to this power set before?

Now, before you say "I didn't get the story" I do not think his story is bad, but I feel like obfuscation has been a trend in pop culture in general to make the story more epic. Snyder does it on Batman (random panels that have no meaning until 3 issues later), Abrams did it on Lost (which I think is the biggest perpetrator of this), and now Hickman. Why make things more complicated for the sake of shock or mystery? I had to have the wiki open as I was reading because I was so lost on what was going on.

Is there something that I am missing, am I being unfairly critical, or do I genuinely not understand Hickman's epic?

I am now currently reading Hickman's Fantastic Four which has been universally praised, to see if his writing was different or the same. I really do love discussing writing, please let me know if there are resources or tpb that would help fill in the blanks.

[marvelousmetalmouse]

I feel like Hickman had dozens of concepts begging to get out and wanted to address all of them but couldn't plan it out worth anything.

[klefmung]

Hey guys, I apologize if this has been brought up before; but I just finished Hickman's "Time Runs Out" and "Secret Wars" and man his writing style is so infuriating!

I wanted to read it because I heard great things, so I begun with Time Runs Out volume 1. I know I should have begun from the very beginning, but I kept hearing that it is a great jumping on point. I did read the wiki before hand to prepare myself, but how could have anyone made sense of what was going if you were reading this monthly?

Why does Hickman have the need to obfuscate his plot with unnecessary name changes of established characters e.g. "The Prophet" or "Rabum Alal" for mystery's sake? Why do multiple time jumps to make the plot even more convoluted than it is? Why gloss over major important facets of story e.g. explaining away the "Black Priests" with a sentence or two, what happened to the Beyonders, how did Molecule Man become the lynchpin to the universe when he never displayed anything close to this power set before?

Now, before you say "I didn't get the story" I do not think his story is bad, but I feel like obfuscation has been a trend in pop culture in general to make the story more epic. Snyder does it on Batman (random panels that have no meaning until 3 issues later), Abrams did it on Lost (which I think is the biggest perpetrator of this), and now Hickman. Why make things more complicated for the sake of shock or mystery? I had to have the wiki open as I was reading because I was so lost on what was going on.

Is there something that I am missing, am I being unfairly critical, or do I genuinely not understand Hickman's epic?


Also, I would suggest reading everything Hickman wrote. Itd probably be a lot clearer.
I am now currently reading Hickman's Fantastic Four which has been universally praised, to see if his writing was different or the same. I really do love discussing writing, please let me know if there are resources or tpb that would help fill in the blanks.

Yea, is best to start at the beginning.

He took up the name "Rabum Alal" because starting a religion was the best way to accomplish his dirty work. I don't think the black swans would be so keen on following "Doctor Doom from Earth 616." So, when Black Swan comes to Earth, she doesn't know who Doom even is, even though she's worshiping him. And they have no way of knowing who Rabum Alal was. The mystery was pretty integral to the plot, really.

The time gap was mostly so the writers of the other books didn't have to worry about the continuity of TRO.

The Black Priests were trying to repair the multiverse by getting ahead of the incursions. They thought if they could destroy the earths ahead of the chain reaction, they could stop the incursions altogether.

As far as the Beyonders/Molecule Men go, its like this. MM was always really powerful. So powerful that when they get killed, their unleashed power is enough to blow up the universe. The beyonders put one in every single universe all set to go off at the same time and blow up the multiverse. Doom killed them one by one, hoping the smaller "explosions" wouldn't take the whole multiverse. But instead, it set off a chain reaction resulting in the incursions. Then Doom killed the beyonders by throwing a bunch of molecule men at them and setting them off, and "our" molecule man was able to absorb all the power. That's why he was the source of all of it in the SW main series.

Basically, you just have to have a good memory to get the story. I agree that it is maybe a little convoluted in a couple of spots where it could be trimmed, but for the most part, the story is just that complex. There was no way for them to know who Rabum Alal was already, so that's why it was a mystery. When I was reading along, I re-read the previous issue right before the current issue so I retained everything that was relevant.

[MindofShadow]

I think Hickman just had this HUGE GRAND THING in his head, focused on the wrong thing at times, and ran out of time and had to start wrapping stuff up quickly.

Hence the handwaves, time jumps, ect.

[DrTraveler]

Hickman had a lot more freedom with Fantastic Four and was essentially unrushed. So his run on that from issue 570 out to 604 is a masterpiece. It really shows what he's capable of. Secret Warriors has an ending that is a bit rushed. He'd seeded all the pieces for that ending in place, but didn't have time to properly build up. Right up to the final arc though that run is amazing.

I like his Avengers through Secret Wars run quite a bit, but it does have problems. He was too ambitious and couldn't keep the writing pace going. On top of that he kept getting hit with plot twists like the new Thor, new Cap, Superior Iron Man, Prof. X's death, etc. He had to adapt on the fly all the time. Even with the 8 Month time jump to make Time Runs Out work, it still doesn't fit with the rest of the Marvel Universe well. Ultimately though that's the fault of the editors. You don't approve a story that will take 4+ years and not lock down the characters essential to the plot. Remender and Aaron should have been told to work closer with Hickman. Instead you get stories like AXIS that make no damn sense when placed in the context of the story leading up to what is supposed to be the biggest Marvel Event ever. It's to Hickman's credit he made old man Cap and Odinson work as part of the plot as well as he did.

My only other issue with the Avengers run is that ultimately, everything post Infinity is a Fantastic Four story, not an Avengers story. That's....a bit of a bummer. Secret Wars brings no resolution to the Avengers civil war that breaks out. The team just implodes spectacularly while the Fantastic Four essentially saves everything. That's a real bummer of an ending.

As for the obfuscations: Doom had to have a new identity for his plan to work. He needed to found a religion plus hide himself from the Beyonders. As his plan involved travelling back in time, if they'd learned he was Doom they could have killed him in the present and screwed his plans to heck. A lot of the rest is explained in the books: Why Molecule Man is important, what happened to the Beyonders, etc.

[charliehustle415]

Hickman had a lot more freedom with Fantastic Four and was essentially unrushed. So his run on that from issue 570 out to 604 is a masterpiece. It really shows what he's capable of. Secret Warriors has an ending that is a bit rushed. He'd seeded all the pieces for that ending in place, but didn't have time to properly build up. Right up to the final arc though that run is amazing.

I like his Avengers through Secret Wars run quite a bit, but it does have problems. He was too ambitious and couldn't keep the writing pace going. On top of that he kept getting hit with plot twists like the new Thor, new Cap, Superior Iron Man, Prof. X's death, etc. He had to adapt on the fly all the time. Even with the 8 Month time jump to make Time Runs Out work, it still doesn't fit with the rest of the Marvel Universe well. Ultimately though that's the fault of the editors. You don't approve a story that will take 4+ years and not lock down the characters essential to the plot. Remender and Aaron should have been told to work closer with Hickman. Instead you get stories like AXIS that make no damn sense when placed in the context of the story leading up to what is supposed to be the biggest Marvel Event ever. It's to Hickman's credit he made old man Cap and Odinson work as part of the plot as well as he did.

My only other issue with the Avengers run is that ultimately, everything post Infinity is a Fantastic Four story, not an Avengers story. That's....a bit of a bummer. Secret Wars brings no resolution to the Avengers civil war that breaks out. The team just implodes spectacularly while the Fantastic Four essentially saves everything. That's a real bummer of an ending.

As for the obfuscations: Doom had to have a new identity for his plan to work. He needed to found a religion plus hide himself from the Beyonders. As his plan involved travelling back in time, if they'd learned he was Doom they could have killed him in the present and screwed his plans to heck. A lot of the rest is explained in the books: Why Molecule Man is important, what happened to the Beyonders, etc.

I did not realize that he was so rushed to finish his run and I completely forgot about the Avengers being completely decimated.

I understand why Doom had to keep his identity secret from the Beyonders, but why keep it a secret from the reader i.e. us? Wouldn't it be cool to actually see Doom go toe to toe with the Beyonders instead of cryptic messages from his underlings? Or if you really wanted to keep it secret, why not allow the reader to figure it out, instead of having zero foreshadowing?

PS: I am now gonna check out Secret Warriors

[neohuey89]

I think Hickman just had this HUGE GRAND THING in his head, focused on the wrong thing at times, and ran out of time and had to start wrapping stuff up quickly.

Hence the handwaves, time jumps, ect.

I think Hickman had this huge grand thing in his head and Marvel decided to take him off the book he was working on and force it into the 616 avengers books, along with following a tight deadline so they could reboot their entire line with it.

[DrTraveler]

I did not realize that he was so rushed to finish his run and I completely forgot about the Avengers being completely decimated.

I understand why Doom had to keep his identity secret from the Beyonders, but why keep it a secret from the reader i.e. us? Wouldn't it be cool to actually see Doom go toe to toe with the Beyonders instead of cryptic messages from his underlings? Or if you really wanted to keep it secret, why not allow the reader to figure it out, instead of having zero foreshadowing?

PS: I am now gonna check out Secret Warriors

When you do, read it twice. The first time you'll probably love everything up to Wheels Within Wheels. It's excellent spy craft and character work. Really top flight stuff. A lot of folks read the last arc of the book and immediately utter "WTF!" However, everything that happens in those last issues is foreshadowed pretty heavily prior. Nothing comes out of nowhere. On your second read you start to see where the ending comes from.

If he'd really stuck that ending Secret Wars would be an instant classic spy book like Ellis's Secret Avengers run or Remender's Uncanny X-Force. Right up to that last arc its on track to be amazing.

I think Hickman had this huge grand thing in his head and Marvel decided to take him off the book he was working on and force it into the 616 avengers books, along with following a tight deadline so they could reboot their entire line with it.

I don't think this. I believe that Hickman had something else planned for Ultimates. We just didn't get to see it. What he did with Avengers comes out of his F4 run, specifically 605.1 and out to the end.

[Von]

Yea, is best to start at the beginning.

He took up the name "Rabum Alal" because starting a religion was the best way to accomplish his dirty work. I don't think the black swans would be so keen on following "Doctor Doom from Earth 616." So, when Black Swan comes to Earth, she doesn't know who Doom even is, even though she's worshiping him. And they have no way of knowing who Rabum Alal was. The mystery was pretty integral to the plot, really.

The time gap was mostly so the writers of the other books didn't have to worry about the continuity of TRO.

The Black Priests were trying to repair the multiverse by getting ahead of the incursions. They thought if they could destroy the earths ahead of the chain reaction, they could stop the incursions altogether.

As far as the Beyonders/Molecule Men go, its like this. MM was always really powerful. So powerful that when they get killed, their unleashed power is enough to blow up the universe. The beyonders put one in every single universe all set to go off at the same time and blow up the multiverse. Doom killed them one by one, hoping the smaller "explosions" wouldn't take the whole multiverse. But instead, it set off a chain reaction resulting in the incursions. Then Doom killed the beyonders by throwing a bunch of molecule men at them and setting them off, and "our" molecule man was able to absorb all the power. That's why he was the source of all of it in the SW main series.

Basically, you just have to have a good memory to get the story. I agree that it is maybe a little convoluted in a couple of spots where it could be trimmed, but for the most part, the story is just that complex. There was no way for them to know who Rabum Alal was already, so that's why it was a mystery. When I was reading along, I re-read the previous issue right before the current issue so I retained everything that was relevant.

Thanks, I read the entire Incursion Epic from the beginning and this is the most concise and satisfying summary I've seen yet.

You did the right thing by reviewing the previous issue - it occurred to me as I was reading that I would probably need to do that, when I lost a few of the plot threads along the way
... and was left scratching my head going "huh!?" (ie. because I did not take the time to do that)

Doom killed the beyonders by throwing a bunch of molecule men at them and setting them off, and "our" molecule man was able to absorb all the power.

lol awesome, yeah this was one of the things that blew past me. It makes some things fall into place a little neater.

Hickman seems like a guy that is conceptually brilliant, with explosive imagination that is almost a bit too much to be fully expressed in his chosen medium. ie.
these stories are well suited for a novel or series of novels, and the limitations of a serial commercial comic book format is the wrong container to try and squeeze
them into.

On the other hand, we get that amazing artwork all the way through that you are not going to get with a novel.

You just have to have the kind of head that appreciates this kind of thing for the glorious achievement that it is, to even conceive of it and then do the work to
make it happen the first place.

This is why I gave him the benefit of the doubt when things got really crazy and I wasn't sure if he lost the plot. I still enjoyed the hell out of it. But now that I finally know
just what the hell Doom used to defeat the Beyonders, I feel even better about all the time and money I invested into reading it lol.

[charliehustle415]

When you do, read it twice. The first time you'll probably love everything up to Wheels Within Wheels. It's excellent spy craft and character work. Really top flight stuff. A lot of folks read the last arc of the book and immediately utter "WTF!" However, everything that happens in those last issues is foreshadowed pretty heavily prior. Nothing comes out of nowhere. On your second read you start to see where the ending comes from.

If he'd really stuck that ending Secret Wars would be an instant classic spy book like Ellis's Secret Avengers run or Remender's Uncanny X-Force. Right up to that last arc its on track to be amazing.



I don't think this. I believe that Hickman had something else planned for Ultimates. We just didn't get to see it. What he did with Avengers comes out of his F4 run, specifically 605.1 and out to the end.

Will do, I know I read Morrison's Batman run like 3 times to fully appreciate it. I love spy stuff, it's what made me fall in love with Brubaker and Rucka, hopefully Hickman will be up there with them.

[Jameszahra]

I thought the same thing when I was reading time runs out. His run up until infinity had structure. even post infinity was ok. It left me wondering, but I felt like I would eventually get all the answers in time runs out.

But....when time runs out hit, It seemed to raise more questions than answers. I also had no Idea what molecule man was about.

May be a stupid question but how was doom worshiped by black swan and others prior to him knowing he was even going to become god doom??

[Centipede Damascus]

May be a stupid question but how was doom worshiped by black swan and others prior to him knowing he was even going to become god doom??

Doom went back in time to before the Incursions started in order to confirm their origin, which is when he founded the cult of Rabum Alal.

[Omega Alpha]

In other words, you took a 60+ issue run on the 50th or so issue and is the writer's fault you haven't understood stuff. OK then...

[XPac]

I thought his pacing could have been better.

I felt things REALLY dragged between Infinity and Time Runs Out. But then towards the end of Time Runs Out things had to be explained a mile minute. Maybe some of the stuff in the middle could have been taken out or tweaked to give the stuff at the end a bit more time.

[charliehustle415]

In other words, you took a 60+ issue run on the 50th or so issue and is the writer's fault you haven't understood stuff. OK then...

Did any of the former issues explain the latter? Because of the 8 month jump, it was basically a new jumping on point and the older stuff was only referenced in regards to the Builders and Mapmakers. So I really don't understand how that would give me more information from Time Runs Out to Secret Wars?