Hickman's Writing on Avengers

[AnonymousODG]

The tie-ins to Infinity and Original Sin really slowed down the entire plot. While I think they are presented well, the focus on short events really established a decompressed pace that made the eight month time skip and the rapid acceleration of the final Incursions really jarring. The pacing took you out of it.

Bottom-line is, we really needed to see the eight months. More Doom foreshadowing could have been established. More exploration of the Black Priests and Strange's activities with them. The Avengers splitting with each other over S.H.I.E.L.D.'s manhunt for the Illuminati could have been further explored. The expansion of the Illuminati to include other members could have been explored. Earth's selling out of Wakanda to the Cabal could have been explored.

The Illuminati's backup plans failing one-by-one could have been explored. I saw a lot of fans wondering aloud why they weren't doing certain things, it wasn't until much later that we're being told they were doing these things off-panel. But it being off-panel and summarized in a few pages after-the-fact didn't really help matters for months and months on end prior to their reveal. It was a missed opportunity to organically sell the notion of hopelessness. Instead, Hickman relied on the shock moments of Hank Pym witnessing the Abstracts' slaughter at the hands of the Beyonders.

I really wanted Namor's actions with the Cabal and Stark's rogue efforts to fight them on their own to be explored. We got some of the former in Avengers World but that really should have been in New Avengers. And we saw two panels of Stark attacking the Cabal. Stark planned for so much during the Incursions and just rolls up on the Cabal with a Heavy Duty Endo-Sym armor YOLO-style? C'mon, man.

Overall, this is one run that I thought worked better as serialized than as a trade. Wondering what the heck was happening and how far superheroes would go and how much worse things could get month by month was really a unique reading experience. And I devoured all of it. The only thing I could compare it to was the build-up to Infinite Crisis.

[Von]

Did any of the former issues explain the latter? Because of the 8 month jump, it was basically a new jumping on point and the older stuff was only referenced in regards to the Builders and Mapmakers. So I really don't understand how that would give me more information from Time Runs Out to Secret Wars?

Its all the same story, if you missed the first 50 issues you definitely have no chance of understanding it, truth.

[hobo]

Whoever told you that TRO was a good jumping on point really meant "least bad jumping on point". If you're not going to start from the beginning then thats probably the best you can do, especially if you are leading up to secret wars. If you don't care about secret wars, then I would say his run up to and including Infinity was possibly better, and can probably be read on its own.

I would not call his Avengers run great. It's not terrible, but it's probably at the bottom of my list. the problem in a nutshell is that there were a lot of moving parts, and it didn't all add up.

The sentient earth "system" story kind of dissipated -- part of it pays off in Avengers World, which was excruciating to read. The "reads better in trade" meme could have been invented for the first arc, so maybe I'd recommend reading it now. I really liked Chechetto's art. Other elements of the story -- Spooky Validator (great early issue) ends up in Sunspot board meetings trying not to get noticed. Pod just becomes a hook for future stories. The Builders are paged, but its not their motivation for heading to Earth.

The new universal stuff was essential for infinity, but star brand and nightmask ultimately did very little.

Stark is called "the monster", and the "death" half of the life/death theme, which was really emphasized during the Original Sin arc. But he didn't do much to earn that distinction, especially compared to Strange and Namor/Cabal.

Captain Universe just disappears from the story after Infinity. No one even bothers to say "hey where's captain universe?" on the page. It's hinted that Hyperion will go out into the omniverse and start something, but he just grows a beard and dies.

Avengers World should have helped flesh the story out, but so much time was wasted on that poorly structured first arc.

[neonrideraryeh]

Definitely start from the beginning. Hickman crafted a massive saga, where every little detail was important. Seemingly innocuous stuff turned out to be relevant later on. Going in near the end isn't going to be helpful. But having the whole thing makes the reveals so good, with the "oh that's what it means!" being very satisfying.

[charliehustle415]

Whoever told you that TRO was a good jumping on point really meant "least bad jumping on point". If you're not going to start from the beginning then thats probably the best you can do, especially if you are leading up to secret wars. If you don't care about secret wars, then I would say his run up to and including Infinity was possibly better, and can probably be read on its own.

I would not call his Avengers run great. It's not terrible, but it's probably at the bottom of my list. the problem in a nutshell is that there were a lot of moving parts, and it didn't all add up.

The sentient earth "system" story kind of dissipated -- part of it pays off in Avengers World, which was excruciating to read. The "reads better in trade" meme could have been invented for the first arc, so maybe I'd recommend reading it now. I really liked Chechetto's art. Other elements of the story -- Spooky Validator (great early issue) ends up in Sunspot board meetings trying not to get noticed. Pod just becomes a hook for future stories. The Builders are paged, but its not their motivation for heading to Earth.

The new universal stuff was essential for infinity, but star brand and nightmask ultimately did very little.

Stark is called "the monster", and the "death" half of the life/death theme, which was really emphasized during the Original Sin arc. But he didn't do much to earn that distinction, especially compared to Strange and Namor/Cabal.

Captain Universe just disappears from the story after Infinity. No one even bothers to say "hey where's captain universe?" on the page. It's hinted that Hyperion will go out into the omniverse and start something, but he just grows a beard and dies.

Avengers World should have helped flesh the story out, but so much time was wasted on that poorly structured first arc.

I'm curious as to why Marvel decided to market the tpb of Time Runs out as "volume 1", nevertheless I will reread it from the beginning. I wonder if any of the tie-in Secret Wars stuff filled in any of the gaps?

[Ken Ashcroft]

I liked Hickman's Time runs out far better than his Secret Wars but then I suppose that's due to me liking the Avenger a lot more than the FF.

[DrTraveler]

I thought his pacing could have been better.

I felt things REALLY dragged between Infinity and Time Runs Out. But then towards the end of Time Runs Out things had to be explained a mile minute. Maybe some of the stuff in the middle could have been taken out or tweaked to give the stuff at the end a bit more time.

Yeah, some stuff there drags. I think part of it is that some elements introduced prior to Infinity got spun off into Avenger's World, meaning the overall structure of the middle there was changing on the fly. Plus, you have the Mirror Mirror Avengers story arc that drags, but has to happen to give Odinson a usable hammer and to put Hulk in place in New Avengers. Add to that the weird issue by issue thing that New Avengers had going on.

Both books pick up and improve a lot once you get into their final story arcs prior to "Time Runs Out." The Great Society and the Infinite Avengers arcs are pretty great.

[BruceWayneJr.]

Here's the dirty little secret: the emperor has no clothes. What people give credit to decompression and editorial bungling is not the same as long-form storytelling, with satisfying and logical payoffs. Hickman has been bounced around on different titles for years, and I don't know why anyone's convinced that Secret Wars a.k.a. "Age of Apocalypse starring Doctor Doom" is a suitable ending to his Avengers work.

The truth is that editorial is off the rails. They're less concerned with story logistics than they are with sales spikes and crossover stunts. Hickman might have had a great story to tell, but Secret Wars is certainly not it. The last few years of Avengers stories are now moot, and Marvel proper is to blame for making it happen.

[JediMindTrick]

The truth is that editorial is off the rails. They're less concerned with story logistics than they are with sales spikes and crossover stunts. Hickman might have had a great story to tell, but Secret Wars is certainly not it. The last few years of Avengers stories are now moot, and Marvel proper is to blame for making it happen.

Agreed. I thought SW was a rather baffling and bizarre ending to Hickmen's Avengers run that up til that was good.

I wonder if SW was really Hickmen's original plan for the end of his run or if Marvel editorial forced it on him so they could reboot the line. I'm not saying editorial wrote SW, I'm just wondering if somewhere mid run they told Hickmen that he had to write an ending that would facilitate a reboot and he had to do it by a certain date as that would help account for the swerve the series seemed to take at Time Runs Out which made absolutely no sense in context to what was going on in the rest of the MU.

[Centipede Damascus]

It'd be really weird if Editorial told Hickman to write for a reboot, considering they didn't reboot anything after Secret Wars.

[jackolover]

Yea, is best to start at the beginning.

He took up the name "Rabum Alal" because starting a religion was the best way to accomplish his dirty work. I don't think the black swans would be so keen on following "Doctor Doom from Earth 616." So, when Black Swan comes to Earth, she doesn't know who Doom even is, even though she's worshiping him. And they have no way of knowing who Rabum Alal was. The mystery was pretty integral to the plot, really.

The time gap was mostly so the writers of the other books didn't have to worry about the continuity of TRO.

The Black Priests were trying to repair the multiverse by getting ahead of the incursions. They thought if they could destroy the earths ahead of the chain reaction, they could stop the incursions altogether.

As far as the Beyonders/Molecule Men go, its like this. MM was always really powerful. So powerful that when they get killed, their unleashed power is enough to blow up the universe. The beyonders put one in every single universe all set to go off at the same time and blow up the multiverse. Doom killed them one by one, hoping the smaller "explosions" wouldn't take the whole multiverse. But instead, it set off a chain reaction resulting in the incursions. Then Doom killed the beyonders by throwing a bunch of molecule men at them and setting them off, and "our" molecule man was able to absorb all the power. That's why he was the source of all of it in the SW main series.

Basically, you just have to have a good memory to get the story. I agree that it is maybe a little convoluted in a couple of spots where it could be trimmed, but for the most part, the story is just that complex. There was no way for them to know who Rabum Alal was already, so that's why it was a mystery. When I was reading along, I re-read the previous issue right before the current issue so I retained everything that was relevant.

If killing a molecule man blows up a whole universe because it's so powerful, there would be no Black Swans or Dr Doom to do anything, because they would all be blown up. I don't think Owen Blows up when he's killed. It has never been explained why a Universe is destroyed if a Molecule man is killed.

What is interesting is that two 616 Dr Dooms existed at the same time. One 616 Victor, who witnessed an Incursion for the first time, and another, the Great Destroyer, sending out Black Swans to progress Incursions faster. The two Dooms were both the exact same person, not alternatives from other realities. They didn't become one Doom until New Avengers #32, when their branch point was reached.

[jackolover]

Doom went back in time to before the Incursions started in order to confirm their origin, which is when he founded the cult of Rabum Alal.

It was a synthetic plot point. Hickman had to overlay his time travel continuity over the 616 continuity at one point.

You have to remember at no point in the MU was the Molecule Man anything other than a defective powerhouse set aside in one corner. Hickman comes along and ascribes powers and connections to Beyonders to him that Owen never had. Hickman rewrote Marvel continuity in another way that spoiled the 616, prematurely. Marvel wanted that to happen, so Hickman was chosen to carry that out - The Avengers final Civil War of Time Runs Out; the fact the Fantastic Four couldn't solve the Incursions problem. These were all "spoilt 616" THE END scenarios.

[jackolover]

I thought his pacing could have been better.

I felt things REALLY dragged between Infinity and Time Runs Out. But then towards the end of Time Runs Out things had to be explained a mile minute. Maybe some of the stuff in the middle could have been taken out or tweaked to give the stuff at the end a bit more time.

Why do you think the middle stuff between Infinity and TRO dragged, and the end of TIME RUNS OUT was rushed? Was this deliberate by Hickman?

[jackolover]

Here's the dirty little secret: the emperor has no clothes. What people give credit to decompression and editorial bungling is not the same as long-form storytelling, with satisfying and logical payoffs. Hickman has been bounced around on different titles for years, and I don't know why anyone's convinced that Secret Wars a.k.a. "Age of Apocalypse starring Doctor Doom" is a suitable ending to his Avengers work.

The truth is that editorial is off the rails. They're less concerned with story logistics than they are with sales spikes and crossover stunts. Hickman might have had a great story to tell, but Secret Wars is certainly not it. The last few years of Avengers stories are now moot, and Marvel proper is to blame for making it happen.

I'm more inclined to go with this. Thanks Bruce Wayne.

I saw the 616 as being in a nice place. And then along comes Marvel NOW! and suddenly the 616 is no good anymore, and it is getting shoved aside in this particular way called Secret Wars. And now what have we got? Bad sales. An unrecognisable MU anymore, shifted oh so minutely enough that it feels uncomfortable. Somehow, a Reed Richards restarted MU doesn't hold the facinaction the 616 held.

[jackolover]

Agreed. I thought SW was a rather baffling and bizarre ending to Hickmen's Avengers run that up til that was good.

I wonder if SW was really Hickmen's original plan for the end of his run or if Marvel editorial forced it on him so they could reboot the line. I'm not saying editorial wrote SW, I'm just wondering if somewhere mid run they told Hickmen that he had to write an ending that would facilitate a reboot and he had to do it by a certain date as that would help account for the swerve the series seemed to take at Time Runs Out which made absolutely no sense in context to what was going on in the rest of the MU.

I read in an interview with Hickman, (and Brevoort was there), that Hickman suggested to destroy the Marvel Universe, and he was surprised management went along with it. If this is true, then this is what Hickman was heading for all along.