What's going on with Marvel's writing?

[GrandEleven]

Wow, I really need to start reading Angela.

Yes. Yes you do.

Seriously the best comic out right now IMO.

[GrandEleven]

The previous run was by Gillen
Besides maybe you have missed the fact that like Angela as a character. I just don't like the direction that has been taken.

Problem is that without Sera the writers don't have a character because Angela isn't one. She's just the sexy-fighter eye-candy trope from Spawn.

Yes Sera adds a ton you clearly don't like, but let's be honest: Angela is about as one-dimensional as they come. She can't tell a story on her own ... the writers NEED Sera to add something. WIthout Sera the only thing they could write about outside of "mercenary mission X" was who was able to finally get her to open up ... which would have been sooooo tiresome. This way they skip the predictable part and just move right to the relationship which will necessarily mean "Sera" because it's not like "everything comes at a cost Angela" will ever really do anything surprising.

Without Sera, Angela is relegated to existing only in a team book.

[tg1982]

Unfortunately it is. It was Mighty Avengers #11. This is why I reallly not doing the happy dance yet about him writing ANAD Doom in Invincible Iron Man. At least he's not been made a facial hair bro yet. (although that was funny with Dr Strange)

Geez. Talk about not knowing how to write a character...

[Sighphi]

Problem is that without Sera the writers don't have a character because Angela isn't one. She's just the sexy-fighter eye-candy trope from Spawn.

Yes Sera adds a ton you clearly don't like, but let's be honest: Angela is about as one-dimensional as they come. She can't tell a story on her own ... the writers NEED Sera to add something. WIthout Sera the only thing they could write about outside of "mercenary mission X" was who was able to finally get her to open up ... which would have been sooooo tiresome. This way they skip the predictable part and just move right to the relationship which will necessarily mean "Sera" because it's not like "everything comes at a cost Angela" will ever really do anything surprising.

Without Sera, Angela is relegated to existing only in a team book.

I find it extremely unlikely that the character cannot be used in a story alone.
Really, it's just not possible unless there is some sort of contract involved stopping them from doing certain things.

[Tiamatty]

I mean, I get what they were going for in that Angela scene, but it's a poor substitution for actual writing. It's lazy and out of place. If you're going to provide social satire, at least saying something with it.

And as for that third panel, Firestar just comes off as a nagging, finger wagging know-it-all. No one in real life is going to actually take the time to scold you over something so miniscule.

I disagree with it being lazy. The crime here was being too-clever. Too-cute. It's the kind of humour that's certainly not for everyone, and it's tough to pull off. I liked it here, myself. I found it funny. But context is important: It's a book where the nature of stories is a theme, and when you have that as a theme, there's a lot you can get away with.

But. Not lazy. It's not like it would've been difficult for Bennett to just write out some horrible dialogue for Bor. She sees enough horrible comments, I'm sure, that it wouldn't be tough to put some of it in Bor's mouth. But then she'd be writing really gross dialogue and no one wants that. No one wants to see actual misogynistic and racist comments being thrown around. So, instead, she found a way to tell readers exactly what Bor was saying without having to write it down. It actually probably took more effort to come up with this idea than to just give Bor actual dialogue.

I can understand people being turned off by the fourth-wall-leaning nature of the joke. People finding it silly that an ancient Viking god would have opinions on Israel. But I disagree with the people who class it as lazy.

[Tiamatty]

Wow, I really need to start reading Angela.

I find it extremely unlikely that the character cannot be used in a story alone.
Really, it's just not possible unless there is some sort of contract involved stopping them from doing certain things.

Angela's personality tends to be flat. She's a character who absolutely needs someone to play off of. Sera works perfectly, because while Angela is very serious and straightforward, Sera is fun and full of wordplay. It makes for a much more entertaining story than if Angela was having adventures on her own.

[Raye]

I have to say I really am not feeling Angela. Like, at all. Hate it with a passion, in fact. I have no problem with meta stuff and leaning on the fourth wall, i have liked a lot of books that did that. And a lot of the nods are aimed right at me, since i loved Gillen's JIM to pieces. But it seems to be trying too hard to make those nods, it's hitting you over the head with it. 'you liked this thing, right? so did we!' and like... that's it. It also seems completely, I mean COMPLETELY out of place for this particular character. Other characters like Leah are being written wildly out of character, and are often just annoying, the exposition just comes off as ham fisted and lazy, just... ugh. Hate it. It has been a while since I have had such a visceral dislike for a book to be honest. I have not read the most recent issue, but this thing with Bor really isn't convincing me I was mistaken in dropping it.

And I don't agree that Angela can't work without a wacky sidekick.

[Galerion]

And I don't agree that Angela can't work without a wacky sidekick.

Don't even know where people got that ridiculous notion from. So being a mostly straightforward and serious person means you suddenly need Harley Quinn as your sidekick or what? Tell that to Batman, Captain America, Punisher, Moon Knight, Cable, Wolverine, X-23, Black Widow, Elektra, Daredevil, Black Panther, Blade, Vision, Black Bolt and the hundreds of other characters who don't need potentially lame jokes to tell a story. It's actually the reason why some people prefer to read about those heroes and not about Spider-Man or Howard the Duck.
A bit of humor is always welcome no matter the character or book but Angela has crossed the line and then went on for a mile at this point.

[Raye]

Exactly. Part of my disappointment stems from the fact that I was actually anticipating some straight up high fantasy drama and intrigue. Something beautiful and dangerous where Angela was a stone cold badass and was awesome for it. She would be great in something like that. And they could have done that and still been meta and cracked a joke or two along the way, and I would have been totally fine with it. But instead they took it waaaaay to far, feels like they are trying too hard to be cutsey and clever and it just fell flat for me. I liked the first series well enough, but Gillen is pretty good at balancing his cutsey and sometimes lame humor with the more serious aspects. This, the balance between the two is just way off.

[Tiamatty]

Don't even know where people got that ridiculous notion from. So being a mostly straightforward and serious person means you suddenly need Harley Quinn as your sidekick or what? Tell that to Batman, Captain America, Punisher, Moon Knight, Cable, Wolverine, X-23, Black Widow, Elektra, Daredevil, Black Panther, Blade, Vision, Black Bolt and the hundreds of other characters who don't need potentially lame jokes to tell a story. It's actually the reason why some people prefer to read about those heroes and not about Spider-Man or Howard the Duck.
A bit of humor is always welcome no matter the character or book but Angela has crossed the line and then went on for a mile at this point.

Some of those characters are pretty capable of quipping themselves. Others often do have sidekicks specifically to balance them out. I mean, there's a reason Wolverine often gets paired with energetic teenage girls. The best Punisher stories tend to feature him less as a character and more as a force. Batman has a long history of sidekicks, usually ones prone to making jokes. Captain America is as likely to quip as to not, depending on the writer. Daredevil bounces between fun swashbuckler and dark noir stories.

But the other thing is that the characters you're naming all have very distinct goals and motivations. Angela's just a mercenary. Her motivation, beyond Sera, is keeping her debts balanced. Remove Sera, and Angela isn't really trying to do anything. She becomes someone who fights for the sake of fighting. She becomes a much flatter character.

I would also object to Sera being described as "wacky" or compared to Harley Quinn. Sera isn't wacky, she's clever. She's all about wordplay, not slapstick. There's a difference.

[Raye]

Yeah, Angela is not a quipper, but why does that mean she needs someone to fill that 'void'? Books can't be quip free? And if she is lacking a distinct goal... GIVE HER ONE. There is lots of area to do that with how she was introduced, how she is a lost daughter of Odin and all.

[Galerion]

Exactly. Part of my disappointment stems from the fact that I was actually anticipating some straight up high fantasy drama and intrigue. Something beautiful and dangerous where Angela was a stone cold badass and was awesome for it. She would be great in something like that. And they could have done that and still been meta and cracked a joke or two along the way, and I would have been totally fine with it. But instead they took it waaaaay to far, feels like they are trying too hard to be cutsey and clever and it just fell flat for me. I liked the first series well enough, but Gillen is pretty good at balancing his cutsey and sometimes lame humor with the more serious aspects. This, the balance between the two is just way off.

I like to bring up the comparison with Red Sonja again because the similarities between both are just there.
Red hair? Check
Incredibly skilled in combat? Check
Bikini armor? Check
Take no shit from anyone attitude? Check
Having no real place to call home and therefore are wandering? Check

Oh yeah Red Sonja even had a book where she became a queen too



But again despite some of the silliness like the bikini armor the Red Sonja books are for the most part actually quite serious and brutal and there is no problem with that. It's what makes the book so enjoyable. Reading adventures of your favorite redhead wandering the landscape fighting low-lifes, monsters, mages and whatever else is common in fantasy settings. When I first heard that Angela would be getting a solo I imagined exactly that being the direction because that is quite simply logical for a character like her. Heck the book was even called "Asgard's Assassin" which implies some kind seriousness and maturity. Of course we got the whole stolen child from Asgard story which was still OK I guess. The second one seems to have delved into straight comedy at this point though.

I don't even know right now if I should be worried since Bennett is also the writer of the latest Red Sonja comics. May have to get a few opinions on them before buying them.

[Tiamatty]

Yeah, Angela is not a quipper, but why does that mean she needs someone to fill that 'void'? Books can't be quip free? And if she is lacking a distinct goal... GIVE HER ONE. There is lots of area to do that with how she was introduced, how she is a lost daughter of Odin and all.

I think someone like Angela actually does work better when she's being played off someone with a sense of humour. She's too flat on her own. I think Sera is an absolutely perfect contrast with her.

But again despite some of the silliness like the bikini armor the Red Sonja books are for the most part actually quite serious and brutal and there is no problem with that. It's what makes the book so enjoyable. Reading adventures of your favorite redhead wandering the landscape fighting low-lifes, monsters, mages and whatever else is common in fantasy settings. When I first heard that Angela would be getting a solo I imagined exactly that being the direction because that is quite simply logical for a character like her. Heck the book was even called "Asgard's Assassin" which implies some kind seriousness and maturity. Of course we got the whole stolen child from Asgard story which was still OK I guess. The second one seems to have delved into straight comedy at this point though.

I don't even know right now if I should be worried since Bennett is also the writer of the latest Red Sonja comics. May have to get a few opinions on them before buying them.

How is it "straight comedy"? Typically, there's some comedy early in each issue, and then it switches focus to be a lot more dramatic. And, of course, there's usually some drama early on, as well. In this issue, the sixth story page had comedy. And then that was pretty much it for the comedy. A couple other jokes here and there. And then a great comedic moment on the second-last page. But the bulk of the issue was either action or drama. The fight against Balder, Tyr and Skurge? Not comedy. The rallying of Angela's troops? Not comedy. The section drawn by Stephanie Hans? Sure as shit not comedy.

How about #3? The first five pages were comedic, though also with some drama beneath some of the jokes. And a couple other jokes here and there. But, again, after those first five pages, it was pretty much all action and drama. #2 had very little humour. Same with #1.

That's the thing: These jokes? They're not actually a big part of any given issue. Most of the time, there's a few jokes spread throughout an issue, but most of what we see is action and drama. If the jokes that are there pull you out of the story too much? Well, that sucks, and maybe the comic isn't for you. But don't try to act like those jokes make up the bulk of each issue. The most joke-heavy issue was #3, and that was mostly because there is just no way to explain Leah and keep a straight face, because she has such a ridiculous backstory, which is part of what makes her so great.

[Raye]

I still respectfully disagree about the need for someone for her to bounce off of. There are plenty of characters who are serious and don't need that. And even so, it could be done with a character that is less smarmy and annoying. I find Sera since the relaunch to just be grating, she's like nails on a chalk board to me.

And even if it doesn't make up the bulk of the comic in terms of panel time, the jokes and fourth wall breaking are so over the top and in your face that it still ends up dominating, and feels out of place. If this was a Deadpool comic and it was like ALL that, I would actually be ok with it for the most part. But it's not, it's an Angela comic dealing with taking over Hel to rescue her lover. The two sides are at odds with one another.

[themasething]

I'm not one for the discussion of ideologies being brought up in comic books, but joke or not, this issue of Angela pushed the "men are evil" line a touch too far. It's amazing how everyone is focused on Bor, but completely ignores the accusations Angela herself (So it's not Sera "being funny") make in the very same 2 page spread.

Angela - Queen of Hel (2015-) 004-006-B.jpg