Newsarama Jurgens Lois & Clark interview REBIRTH hint!

[Sacred Knight]

Its not about everyone needing to be Morrison-level. He didn't do anything so out of this world that only a writing savant could follow up on it. Pak managed just fine. That's not insult to Pak in the slightest, but he doesn't quite have that high concept, out there style that Morrison does. Yet he followed the foundation just fine. More than fine in fact as I felt before the crossovers started in earnest, his run was beginning to rival Morrison's. They each had their own styles but each followed the same Superman. You could clearly see and feel the linkage. Is Morrison better than most with Superman? In the current crop in the business, yeah, he is. That doesn't meant the foundation he had laid down was so complex or too intelligent to be worked with or anything of the sort. So there's nothing telling about not many writers following up on his successful run other than either most writers they got just aren't that good, at least not in the sense of understanding this character and his world, the editorial staff hamstrung them, or a little bit of both.

[victorsage]

Please don't kill Pre-FP Superman and Lois! It was bad enough 10 years ago when Golden Age Earth 2 Superman and Lois were killed off in Infinite Crisis. DC should have left them, Superboy Prime, and Alex Luther alone after they went to live happily ever after at end of 1985 CRISIS.

Now I'm nervous about Rebirth.

Yes that was horrible. Watching the character that canon side DC is called the original Superman created by Siegel and Shuster is murdered by a teenage doppelganger. It was terrible.

I see you all are still fighting among yourself as is normal. lol

[misslane]

Its not about everyone needing to be Morrison-level. He didn't do anything so out of this world that only a writing savant could follow up on it.

Then why has only Greg Pak managed to do something with it, and only then on rare occasions? If it's such a great foundation rather than just a great story, why is it ignored and so rarely mined for inspiration?

Pak managed just fine. That's not insult to Pak in the slightest, but he doesn't quite have that high concept, out there style that Morrison does. Yet he followed the foundation just fine. More than fine in fact as I felt before the crossovers started in earnest, his run was beginning to rival Morrison's. They each had their own styles but each followed the same Superman. You could clearly see and feel the linkage.

Even if Pak were to avoid constant interference from an incompetent editor, the fact that only one writer has been able to do something with Morrison's origin is not a ringing endorsement of its utility as a foundation rather than just a standalone origin.

Is Morrison better than most with Superman? In the current crop in the business, yeah, he is. That doesn't meant the foundation he had laid down was so complex or too intelligent to be worked with or anything of the sort. So there's nothing telling about not many writers following up on his successful run other than either most writers they got just aren't that good, at least not in the sense of understanding this character and his world, the editorial staff hamstrung them, or a little bit of both.

If most writers "aren't that good" and editorial clearly cannot seem to invest in quality ideas and storytelling, then is Morrison's origin really a good fit for the New 52? It seems to me that the editor and most writers were not remotely interested in expanding or revisiting Morrison's world or ideas. From the beginning with the Perez run telling us the story of Morrison's world five years later, there was a lack of investment in continuity and collaboration. When you have a company that is interested only in events, gimmicks, and crossovers, then an auteur-style origin story may not be the best foundation.

A television analogy, I think, may help clarify what I'm trying to say. The world of film has provided countless masterpieces that have moved, entertained, and inspired audiences and creators alike. Yet, just because a concept was successful in film form, doesn't mean the film itself is a solid foundation for a television series. Television shows rely on pilots to establish the viability of a concept drawn out over multiple episodes over many years with a myriad of writers and directors. Morrison, I believe, wrote a great film but not the greatest pilot. Pilots are hardly ever the best episodes of a television show.

[Lokimaru]

The difference between post crises and post new 52 Superman's is the was allowed have established consistency, all books had John Bryne's hand guiding on them. N52 Superman didn't have that. Also Post crises Supes seemed to pick up right after Crises with no skip, Clark is still in his thirties looking like Superman. New 52 Clark was supposed to do the same hense you see the old DP getting torn down. Action Comics was supposed to be ten years in the past not five. It was supposed to go Action#1-Five Years-Justice League#1-Five Years-Superman#1, Ten Years would have given them the time necessary to have all the continuity play out but some "genius" at DC nixed that plan for younger heroes screwing up everything. L&C were supposed to be getting a divorce, Clark goes to Lois' apartment to try to reconcile sees then and over hears her and JC, walks away, why do you think he looks so upset? Remember these stories are drawn Months in advance, new lines can be written but the art is there.

[Tayswift]

The difference between post crises and post new 52 Superman's is the was allowed have established consistency, all books had John Bryne's hand guiding on them. N52 Superman didn't have that. Also Post crises Supes seemed to pick up right after Crises with no skip, Clark is still in his thirties looking like Superman. New 52 Clark was supposed to do the same hense you see the old DP getting torn down. Action Comics was supposed to be ten years in the past not five. It was supposed to go Action#1-Five Years-Justice League#1-Five Years-Superman#1, Ten Years would have given them the time necessary to have all the continuity play out but some "genius" at DC nixed that plan for younger heroes screwing up everything. L&C were supposed to be getting a divorce, Clark goes to Lois' apartment to try to reconcile sees then and over hears her and JC, walks away, why do you think he looks so upset? Remember these stories are drawn Months in advance, new lines can be written but the art is there.

never heard of this, that the heroes should be older and JL first arc and morrison action comics were set 10 years before.

[manofsteel1979]

The difference between post crises and post new 52 Superman's is the was allowed have established consistency, all books had John Bryne's hand guiding on them. N52 Superman didn't have that. Also Post crises Supes seemed to pick up right after Crises with no skip, Clark is still in his thirties looking like Superman. New 52 Clark was supposed to do the same hense you see the old DP getting torn down. Action Comics was supposed to be ten years in the past not five. It was supposed to go Action#1-Five Years-Justice League#1-Five Years-Superman#1, Ten Years would have given them the time necessary to have all the continuity play out but some "genius" at DC nixed that plan for younger heroes screwing up everything. L&C were supposed to be getting a divorce, Clark goes to Lois' apartment to try to reconcile sees then and over hears her and JC, walks away, why do you think he looks so upset? Remember these stories are drawn Months in advance, new lines can be written but the art is there.

Actually I have always wondered this. I always got the sense that first Perez issue was supposed to pick up sometime after the events of Grounded. Remember the line of dialogue from Jimmy that mentioned Superman having been gone from Metropolis for awhile? Also in that first page with the Daily Planet being torn down, note that the supporting cast characters shown ( Cat, Ron Troupe, and Steve Lombard) were members of the supporting cast right around the time of Flashpoint, and then after that issue Lombard disappeared and Yroupe had a very brief cameo two issues later. Only Cat stuck around. Also the aforementioned art was previewed shortly after the announcement and by the time it was published it was altered. CK was suddenly deaged from looking exactly like his preFlashpoint self into a slightly older version of his Action Comics messy Harry Potter look.

I've always thought Perez was originally tasked to introduce a very soft reboot of the Daily Planet/ Lois and Clark situation but instead was altered after the initial stories were finished via editorial to fit with what Morrison was doing in Action and the last minute 11th hour decision to tie everything to a strict 5 year timeline. That explains all the drama between Perez and DC around that time. I'd be upset too.

There's other evidence. Remember Supes appearance in the first issue of Swamp Thing? A closer inspection of the art on thosr pages make it clear he was supposed to be wearing the classic trunked suit and that it was altered into the new 52 suit via clever recoloring and last minute edits. SUPERBOY was supposed to continue from what came before with Conner getting rejiggered and mind wipe by Cadmus. Instead that plan was changed at the last minute and thus Lobdell was forced to make him a new character.

Whatever Rebirth is...be it the slight retooling it likely is, or a full on reboot or even a return to PreFlashpoint continuity, I pray it is better planned and executed than the New 52 reboot.

[Tayswift]

Then why has only Greg Pak managed to do something with it, and only then on rare occasions? If it's such a great foundation rather than just a great story, why is it ignored and so rarely mined for inspiration?



Even if Pak were to avoid constant interference from an incompetent editor, the fact that only one writer has been able to do something with Morrison's origin is not a ringing endorsement of its utility as a foundation rather than just a standalone origin.



If most writers "aren't that good" and editorial clearly cannot seem to invest in quality ideas and storytelling, then is Morrison's origin really a good fit for the New 52? It seems to me that the editor and most writers were not remotely interested in expanding or revisiting Morrison's world or ideas. From the beginning with the Perez run telling us the story of Morrison's world five years later, there was a lack of investment in continuity and collaboration. When you have a company that is interested only in events, gimmicks, and crossovers, then an auteur-style origin story may not be the best foundation.

A television analogy, I think, may help clarify what I'm trying to say. The world of film has provided countless masterpieces that have moved, entertained, and inspired audiences and creators alike. Yet, just because a concept was successful in film form, doesn't mean the film itself is a solid foundation for a television series. Television shows rely on pilots to establish the viability of a concept drawn out over multiple episodes over many years with a myriad of writers and directors. Morrison, I believe, wrote a great film but not the greatest pilot. Pilots are hardly ever the best episodes of a television show.

pilot has the basic premise of a tv show, walking dead it was peopel trying to survive a zumbi apocalypse and then there is the personal dramas;

i don't know if fundation is the only reason superman keep failing, seems that a lack of direction is the reason it fails.
superman comics seems like a volley game with supporting character and themes being thrown in all directions

I think that the five year gap helped on the proccess of writers not getting Morrison origin story. many things happened in these years and they have to fill the void. Perez had a hard time doing it.
My take is superman books need to prioritize build the supporting characters and superman worldbuilding with villains and metropolis city.

if writers have problem to build on morrison, they should start they own fundation. Because only one writer being successful on doing it, tells that fundation is a problem too

[manofsteel1979]

pilot has the basic premise of a tv show, walking dead it was peopel trying to survive a zumbi apocalypse and then there is the personal dramas;

i don't know is fundation is the reason superman keep failing, seems that a lack of direction is the reason it fails.
superman comics seems like a volley game with supporting character and themes being thrown in all directions

I think that the five year gap helped on the proccess of writers not getting Morrison origin story. many things happened in these years and they have to fill the void. Perez had a hard time doing it.
My take is superman books need to prioritize build the supporting characters and superman worldbuilding with villains and metropolis city.

if writers have problem to build on morrison, they should start they own fundation.

While we usually don't always agree, you are right. As much as I would hate Morrison's work and run to get erased, if Editorial and creators are unwilling or can't manage to build from those issues, then perhaps a fresh start is needed.

If what Morrison did isn't being utilized, then perhaps ultimately it should join Birthright, Secret Origin and Man of Steel as alternative takes on the origin and early history of Superman and just do something else that can be built around and off of.

Here we are 5 years later and other than a few bits here and there, I can't think of anything that I'd be upset to lose, beyond Morrison's run itself and Pak's non crossover stuff. That's like, what, 25-30 issues total out of, what, 200 or so issues combined counting all the various Superman titles the last 5 years? That shows how bad things have become. Or perhaps Superman comics aren't for me anymore. At this point I am beginning to wonder.

[Ascended]

Then why has only Greg Pak managed to do something with it, and only then on rare occasions? If it's such a great foundation rather than just a great story, why is it ignored and so rarely mined for inspiration?

Well the obvious answer is going to be that 99% of those other writers were terrible. It doesnt matter how good or bad the previous writer (Morrison) was, Lobdell's not a good writer. And a lower quality run preceding his is not going to make him a better writer. And limiting Superman's creators to the lowest caliber possible so the next guy doesnt look worse is amazingly backwards thinking. And expecting DC to find writers on Morrison's level is likewise tilting at windmills; even great writers (like Johns) can miss the mark on their next project. Johns, Azzarello....there's lots of good writers out there who turned in lackluster Superman stories.

And the foundation Morrison left us was pretty straight forward; Clark Kent is a reporter at the Planet, friends with Lois and Jim, and saves the world as Superman, a alien hero with powers beyond those of mortal men. So, really, every single issue that has followed Morrison has used the foundation he laid down. You're going to say that all this is just Superman's standard status quo, and you're completely right. About the only thing Morrison really did that was new was the t-shirt and jeans, and DC is always looking for excuses to go back to that.

Anyway, Im done with this. While you and I often disagree I can usually see your point of view. But this just seems absolutely asinine to me. You cant blame Morrison for stuff that DC did after he left. Its not his fault nor the fault of his work that DC has dropped the ball with Superman yet again.

[misslane]

And limiting Superman's creators to the lowest caliber possible so the next guy doesnt look worse is amazingly backwards thinking.

Strawman. I never argued in favor of hiring bad writers. I am only suggesting that Morrison's origin story is not one that functions well as a foundation for brand a new continuity that has zero interest in serving it well. It's also not a viable origin story to use if the idea all along was to jump ahead five years later without any real follow up on Morrison's ideas. It was not the right origin story for the New 52 given the reboot's goals and interests.

And the foundation Morrison left us was pretty straight forward; Clark Kent is a reporter at the Planet, friends with Lois and Jim, and saves the world as Superman, a alien hero with powers beyond those of mortal men. So, really, every single issue that has followed Morrison has used the foundation he laid down. You're going to say that all this is just Superman's standard status quo, and you're completely right. About the only thing Morrison really did that was new was the t-shirt and jeans, and DC is always looking for excuses to go back to that.

It is all Superman's "standard status quo," which is why it was an origin that was completely unsuited to a company, editor, and many writers who only saw the New 52 as an opportunity to totally upend the status quo. Grant Morrison wrote an origin story that did what he always does with icons with vast continuities. He brought all of the varied continuities together to create a version of Superman that married the best elements of the Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age, and Iron Age versions of the character with a modern spin. But that's not going to work if the company he wrote that origin for does not want its Superman to reflect the core attributes of the character.

When creating multiple new status quos for Superman is DC's modus operandi, then an origin that is just "Superman's standard status quo" is not going to function well as an origin story. It's not the right origin story for the Superman that DC is interested in selling. Does that mean that Morrison's origin would never be workable as a foundational origin? No, it doesn't. It could be a great jumping off point for yet another reboot if that "rebirth" is interested in a Superman that adheres more closely to his more iconic elements and is willing to provide the creative professionals to guarantee better quality control and consistency.

Anyway, Im done with this. While you and I often disagree I can usually see your point of view. But this just seems absolutely asinine to me. You cant blame Morrison for stuff that DC did after he left. Its not his fault nor the fault of his work that DC has dropped the ball with Superman yet again.

What is utterly asinine to me is your continual reliance on strawmen to make your argument. I have not once blamed Grant Morrison for his origin story. It's a great origin story, but it's clearly not the right origin story to serve as a foundation for the New 52. It is an origin that clearly is not working, which is not the same thing as arguing that it does not work and never will.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Well the obvious answer is going to be that 99% of those other writers were terrible. It doesnt matter how good or bad the previous writer (Morrison) was, Lobdell's not a good writer. And a lower quality run preceding his is not going to make him a better writer. And limiting Superman's creators to the lowest caliber possible so the next guy doesnt look worse is amazingly backwards thinking. And expecting DC to find writers on Morrison's level is likewise tilting at windmills; even great writers (like Johns) can miss the mark on their next project. Johns, Azzarello....there's lots of good writers out there who turned in lackluster Superman stories.

And the foundation Morrison left us was pretty straight forward; Clark Kent is a reporter at the Planet, friends with Lois and Jim, and saves the world as Superman, a alien hero with powers beyond those of mortal men. So, really, every single issue that has followed Morrison has used the foundation he laid down. You're going to say that all this is just Superman's standard status quo, and you're completely right. About the only thing Morrison really did that was new was the t-shirt and jeans, and DC is always looking for excuses to go back to that.

Anyway, Im done with this. While you and I often disagree I can usually see your point of view. But this just seems absolutely asinine to me. You cant blame Morrison for stuff that DC did after he left. Its not his fault nor the fault of his work that DC has dropped the ball with Superman yet again.

What he said. I'm sorry about before misslane, I didn't meant to offend or belittle.

[Prime]

Well the obvious answer is going to be that 99% of those other writers were terrible. It doesnt matter how good or bad the previous writer (Morrison) was, Lobdell's not a good writer. And a lower quality run preceding his is not going to make him a better writer. And limiting Superman's creators to the lowest caliber possible so the next guy doesnt look worse is amazingly backwards thinking. And expecting DC to find writers on Morrison's level is likewise tilting at windmills; even great writers (like Johns) can miss the mark on their next project. Johns, Azzarello....there's lots of good writers out there who turned in lackluster Superman stories.

And the foundation Morrison left us was pretty straight forward; Clark Kent is a reporter at the Planet, friends with Lois and Jim, and saves the world as Superman, a alien hero with powers beyond those of mortal men. So, really, every single issue that has followed Morrison has used the foundation he laid down. You're going to say that all this is just Superman's standard status quo, and you're completely right. About the only thing Morrison really did that was new was the t-shirt and jeans, and DC is always looking for excuses to go back to that.

Anyway, Im done with this. While you and I often disagree I can usually see your point of view. But this just seems absolutely asinine to me. You cant blame Morrison for stuff that DC did after he left. Its not his fault nor the fault of his work that DC has dropped the ball with Superman yet again.

Yup, but Pak is closest thing to Morrison we have had since he left. But unfortunately the crossovers have derailed the direction Pak was going.

[Ascended]

Yeah, I think Pak's run should be put in the "Biggest wasted opportunities" thread. That guy, when he's on, he's amazing. But it feels like he's been strangled by edicts from day one.

Real shame too. I dont find a lot of Pak's work on other characters to be all that impressive. He's good, dont get me wrong, but he and Kulder seem to have a real knack for Superman that brings out the best in Pak, and I fear that he'll be off the books before we ever get a chance to see him cut loose without interference. His run could have been character defining, but I fear it'll just be one more missed chance. Still, until we hear he's off the books I suppose there's hope.....maybe with the Rebirth, issue 52 stuff we'll find ourselves in a better position, under better editorial. I cant say Im optimistic, but Superman taught me to hope, so.....

[superduperman]

I didn't know a lot of this stuff about the original timeline and maybe keeping some of the pre-Flashpoint elements like the marriage. Maybe if they had done that and made it a bit of a "softer" reboot, older fans might have gone for it. Looking back at Jurgens' first arc, there are a lot of stuff in there that doesn't make sense or appear to even have a context. Jurgens has never made it a secret that DC didn't exactly let him in on all the changes they were making so his hands were somewhat tied. When Jimmy and Miko said he was "back" there was no context for what that meant. Hearing a lot of these stories, New52 strikes me as very put together on the fly. If the armor suit had been more of an "upgrade" from his trunks instead of his main suit all along, maybe that would have also made things easier. You could still keep things like the Death of Superman story as is.

Back to the present day, however. I don't see how they can restore the ID without some kind of BND style event which would free them up to get rid of certain elements that fans hate like Truth but I don't see a hard reboot in the future given how much effort they put into the last one. I also don't see a "merger" of new and old Superman given that they are both with different women and their fanbases appear to be entirely different. There also doesn't appear to be any real reason to do that. Okay, so "new" Clark has the memories of "old" Clark and gets to remember a time when his parents were alive well into his career. And the point of that is, what, exactly? I certainly don't see a restoration of the pre-Flahspoint continuity either since too much has changed and there is no way to undo it. The old school JSA isn't coming back, for instance. I think this is why Lois and Clark isn't doing so well. Fans of the old version don't want to see a "resolution", they want their version to continue.

This "Rebirth" strikes me as more of a clarification than anything else. Get rid of recent unpopular concepts while squaring out some of the round pegs to better make them fit into the already designed holes. I don't see the Super-marriage being restored, for instance. Or the Kents being brought back to life. But I agree that as long as editorial is broken, these are all cosmetic changes at best. If Berzanga sucks as an editor, then he's still going to suck after the fact too.

[Tayswift]

I didn't know a lot of this stuff about the original timeline and maybe keeping some of the pre-Flashpoint elements like the marriage. Maybe if they had done that and made it a bit of a "softer" reboot, older fans might have gone for it. Looking back at Jurgens' first arc, there are a lot of stuff in there that doesn't make sense or appear to even have a context. Jurgens has never made it a secret that DC didn't exactly let him in on all the changes they were making so his hands were somewhat tied. When Jimmy and Miko said he was "back" there was no context for what that meant. Hearing a lot of these stories, New52 strikes me as very put together on the fly. If the armor suit had been more of an "upgrade" from his trunks instead of his main suit all along, maybe that would have also made things easier. You could still keep things like the Death of Superman story as is.

Back to the present day, however. I don't see how they can restore the ID without some kind of BND style event which would free them up to get rid of certain elements that fans hate like Truth but I don't see a hard reboot in the future given how much effort they put into the last one. I also don't see a "merger" of new and old Superman given that they are both with different women and their fanbases appear to be entirely different. There also doesn't appear to be any real reason to do that. Okay, so "new" Clark has the memories of "old" Clark and gets to remember a time when his parents were alive well into his career. And the point of that is, what, exactly? I certainly don't see a restoration of the pre-Flahspoint continuity either since too much has changed and there is no way to undo it. The old school JSA isn't coming back, for instance. I think this is why Lois and Clark isn't doing so well. Fans of the old version don't want to see a "resolution", they want their version to continue.

This "Rebirth" strikes me as more of a clarification than anything else. Get rid of recent unpopular concepts while squaring out some of the round pegs to better make them fit into the already designed holes. I don't see the Super-marriage being restored, for instance. Or the Kents being brought back to life. But I agree that as long as editorial is broken, these are all cosmetic changes at best. If Berzanga sucks as an editor, then he's still going to suck after the fact too.

that is something DC should had thought on convergence. comics are too expensive to buy for goodbyes

first sign of low sales more crossovers if berganza stays