Overused Marvel Villains

[Shinglepants]

Definitely Moonstone. It would be neat to see her as an actual mastermind, and not just the chick who sleeps with the mastermind.

Grey Gargoyle has always been a quirky favorite of mine as well, especially in the old days when he was terrorizing the starlanes with a crew of alien space pirates. That's just whacky fun there. Why should teen Cyclops get all the space pirate action?

More U-Foes (and not just as jobbers seen in the back of a big fight getting schooled) and Red Ghost and Madame Masque. More Mole Man and Controller and Mentallo and Fixer and Taskmaster and Tiger Shark! Graviton is an insanely heavy hitter, when he's in the mood. Diablo can crap out a city full of Hulks as a *distraction.* The Leader is about a hundred times smarter than Richards and Doom combined, let alone sixth tier 'geniuses' like Octavius, and really should get some credit for that.

Moonstone, between her power set, intellect and field of expertise she is definitely boss material. She has the whole package, especially when you think about the relationships she might be able to exploit from her MoE/Thunderbolt/Dark Avenger days. She should be a major player.

[neonrideraryeh]

Why would anyone think Wasp was a villain? She's like one of the most optimistic happy heroes in the MU. And if she was anti-mutant, then why would she join the Unity Squad, have lots of Mutant friends and get the hots for Havok. I'm seriously confused reading some of the posts in this thread.

Anyway back on topic. Sabretooth may not be overused in the greater MU, but I think he's overused as a Wolverine enemy. Logan should deal with some other guys too more often. Though Logan's gonna be dead for a bit soon so we'll cross that bridge when he's back.

[Iron Maiden]

Why would anyone think Wasp was a villain? She's like one of the most optimistic happy heroes in the MU. And if she was anti-mutant, then why would she join the Unity Squad, have lots of Mutant friends and get the hots for Havok. I'm seriously confused reading some of the posts in this thread.

For true, especially with posts like this.

Sure, every time Wasp speaks about mutants as a group, it's hateful, but my pegging her as a racist is totally baseless.

Again, you're posting in the wrong thread. The subject is not "Characters I hate" . So if I were to talk about Mutants are a fictional group of people I would be racist, or merely rational? I'd like to see you post a sample of your alleged hate speak from Janet.

[Danny Wall]

I've always said that one of the problems with stories nowadays is that there is too much hero versus hero stuff going on. I just fininshed reading Original Sin #4 and while there is some token acknowelgement that the Orb is *somehow* involved and that Dr Midas may have *something* to do with the plot, the conflict in the issue is really just the different heroes squabbling against each other. I don't have a problem with that per se, as it's really a Marvel tradition from the very 60s-beginnings, but when by and large that's ALL we see, and is pretty much a feature of ALL major events for the past ten years or more of comics reading, it's really kind of a problem.

One of the problems is that readers nowadays are more sophisticated, and they want stories that are more nuanced than Dr Octopus fleeing a bank job with two bags of money held in a tentacle. BUT I think there can be nuance to even that, if stories are delivered a bit more symbolically, like Doc Ock's robbing a bank coinciding with Spidey's money problems. Unfortunately, it seems a lost art to deliver villains in order to highlight a hero's particular trait.

The other major problem is that creators are less likely to create new villains. With the rise of creator rights, and with the (relative) ease of independent and publishing, there's fewer incentives for creators to give their "new" stuff to old companies. It's much easier to write yet-another Dr. Doom story and hold off on using your own Doom analog for a story you can better control. It's even better to hold off on coming up with new takes for these old villains-- why not use them for an "inspired-by" kind of story, too?

And maybe we readers are too blame, too. When Invisible Woman faces off against the Iconoclast, readers aren't as engaged as they are when it's Dr. Doom.

[Sutekh]

The thing is, not only do some these villains need more panel time, but they need more interesting and new stories. Too often, non A-list villains are stuck doing the same things they were doing back in the Silver Age, they never get a new story or any character development even though they have been around for 50 years. If non A-list villains are just going to do the same things they have been doing for the past 50 years and never develop as characters, no one has any reason to want to see them again.

Look at say Red Ghost, the Berlin wall fell over 20 years ago and he still acts like a cliched commie mad scientist. Really shouldn't the writers take him beyond that point? What kind of character was he, an idealist who actually believed in communism or just an opportunist scum bag who only wanted a position of power in the USSR. I actually think the former is far more interesting then the later, lots far left wingers became disillusioned with communism after the fall of the USSR and became anarchists, which is the new major ideology of the far left movement, it is far more relevant then old school communism, at least on the streets and in protest movements. This could make Red Ghost a villain who has some legitimate points, but uses bad methods to achieve his goals. Or if you want to make him just an opportunist, you make work for the current Putin regime in Russia or became he can become a Russian ultra nationalist. There is a million things that more interesting then making some generic mad scientist or Cold War relic, but the writers don't want to try anything with him.

I completely agree, actually. The Red Ghost seemed, in earlier appearances, very much a believer in communism. If he indeed remains true to that, he could be the Russian equivalent of a terrorist, attempting to overthrow the new (and even *more* breathtakingly corrupt, it seems) post-communist regime. Or maybe he fled to Cuba (which would make him a much more 'close to home' threat of opportunity to American heroes, than some crazy old commie fighting a futile underground resistance against Putin's new Russian 'democracy').

He's supposed to be a bit of a mad genius, and, thanks to the Super-Skrull, it's been established that cosmic ray empowered people's powers can all be bundled up into a single person, so it might be interesting to see him steal the powers of his 'super-apes' and make himself into a sort of 'super-skrull,' combing his own phasing/intangibility powers, Thing-like super-strength and toughness, shapeshifting and whatever powers that other ape had (magnetism? gravity control?) into a single package. He might even go a step further and attempt to capture and steal the powers of other cosmic ray empowered folk, such as the U-Foes or Fantastic Four, or develop technology to specifically suppress their powers, or make them go out of control, etc. forcing the FF to use their wits, or the timely intervention of an ally (like Spider-Man or She-Hulk) who *doesn't* get their powers from cosmic rays.

[krazijoe]

Not sure how I see Thanos as being used too much.
If anything I see the "Anti-Hero" being used way too much.

[The Overlord]

I completely agree, actually. The Red Ghost seemed, in earlier appearances, very much a believer in communism. If he indeed remains true to that, he could be the Russian equivalent of a terrorist, attempting to overthrow the new (and even *more* breathtakingly corrupt, it seems) post-communist regime. Or maybe he fled to Cuba (which would make him a much more 'close to home' threat of opportunity to American heroes, than some crazy old commie fighting a futile underground resistance against Putin's new Russian 'democracy').

He's supposed to be a bit of a mad genius, and, thanks to the Super-Skrull, it's been established that cosmic ray empowered people's powers can all be bundled up into a single person, so it might be interesting to see him steal the powers of his 'super-apes' and make himself into a sort of 'super-skrull,' combing his own phasing/intangibility powers, Thing-like super-strength and toughness, shapeshifting and whatever powers that other ape had (magnetism? gravity control?) into a single package. He might even go a step further and attempt to capture and steal the powers of other cosmic ray empowered folk, such as the U-Foes or Fantastic Four, or develop technology to specifically suppress their powers, or make them go out of control, etc. forcing the FF to use their wits, or the timely intervention of an ally (like Spider-Man or She-Hulk) who *doesn't* get their powers from cosmic rays.

I still think making Red Ghost an anarchist, makes him more relevant, because that is the popular ideology among today's radical idealistic young left wingers. Plus most anarchists see themselves as the ones who will perfect Marxism, by ignoring the dictatorship of the proletariat and going straight to a classless stateless society right after a workers revolution. I think that will make Red Ghost seem like he has learned something from the fall of the USSR and make more an example of today's left wing. He should be attacking corporations and super heroes get in his way, rather having him attack superheroes from the get go. If he is trying to steal superhero's powers, it should for the anarchist cause, not just his personal power or for petty revenge. I think this let's Red Ghost move beyond just being some stock villain, into a villain who has some valid points, but causes the wrong methods to get them across.

What I am getting is, I think for some of these obscure villains to be used again, it shouldn't seem like the writers are just reusing stories from the 60s or they feel obligated to do stories with these villains, but have no real passion for them. The writers should only use these characters if they have a really good new idea for them. I liked the way Mark Waid used Mole Man in DD, it was different story and gave the character some depth, thought I bet it will never be brought in any of his appearances in the FF. They really should build upon the character building stories with their villains, not just have for an issue and then forget it.

[Crimz]

Basically any villain that started as a villain but eventually became an antihero or was a heroic female that lost control of her powers is overused.

This^
The only thing I hate more than an overused villain is one that turns into a antihero.

[Thor2000]

I agree with almost everything here. Particularly, that Doom, Loki, and Norman Osborn are overdone. Doom needs to go away for a year and come back reinvented, Osborn transformed into Marvel's Lex Luthor way too freaking fast and Loki has been brought back too soon too often. He was turned into a mortal, brought back the next month, made into a kid, restored the next month. Enough already!! Give him a punishment that sticks for a while!!

And yes, Moonstone/Karla Sofen is another villainess needing a re-vamp. In fact, I could possibly rattle off dozens that could be re-vamped/re-interpreted/re-invented. Have the Marvel writers really gotten so lazy that they DON'T want to reuse old characters or re-interpret under-used ones?

[krazijoe]

I agree with almost everything here. Particularly, that Doom, Loki, and Norman Osborn are overdone. Doom needs to go away for a year and come back reinvented, Osborn transformed into Marvel's Lex Luthor way too freaking fast and Loki has been brought back too soon too often. He was turned into a mortal, brought back the next month, made into a kid, restored the next month. Enough already!! Give him a punishment that sticks for a while!!

And yes, Moonstone/Karla Sofen is another villainess needing a re-vamp. In fact, I could possibly rattle off dozens that could be re-vamped/re-interpreted/re-invented. Have the Marvel writers really gotten so lazy that they DON'T want to reuse old characters or re-interpret under-used ones?

She would be great with Captain Marvel/ms Marvel or whatever they are calling her now.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

Sub-Mariner #23 Mar 1970
First appearance of Orka in "The Coming of Orka"
Returning to his undersea realm, Namor comes across a large herd
of killer whales, led by the monstrous Orka, and takes him on;

Namor is defeated by Orka, but follows him and discovers that Dr. Dorcas and Krang

are actually behind Orka's powers,

and are planning an attack on Atlantis;
Namor gains the upper hand by threatening Krang's life which prompts Orka to turn against Dorcas;
However, Namor's plan comes undone and he's taken down hard by Orka;
Following Krang's orders, Orka puts a stun-collar and chains on the Sub-Mariner;
Krang then announces an intention of marching into Atlantis with an enslaved Namor.

Script by Roy Thomas, pencils by Marie Severin, inks by Johnny Craig

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

Sub-Mariner #24 Apr 1970
"The Lady and the Tiger-Shark"
Krang gloats over the defeated Sub-Mariner and then has Orka
dispatch his killer whales after Lady Dorma and her entourage;
Tiger Shark comes to their rescue

and Atlantis is forced to turn to him

to repulse the attack by Krang and his forces;
Namor is freed in the initial onslaught of the battle and turns his attention to Krang;
Tiger Shark and Orka attack each other

and their battle buries them both under some ruins.

Script by Roy Thomas, pencils by John Buscema, inks by Jim Mooney

[JudicatorPrime]

Disagree about Scourge, though. I'd rather see him kill the guys I listed above.

I'd be all for that!

Something like Mistress Death deciding that her "chosen" big baddies need to be punished for serving their own interests and falling short of Her expectations. The twist here is that not all of the villains know that they were "anointed" by the hand of Death. The bigger twist is that there are even some heroes who are unaware that they are also Death's "chosen." Nevertheless Death empowers her agent, Deathurge, to go after all of them. Deathurge in turn recruits the Scourge as his chief actor in the field. He creates a small army of Scourges, gifting them with weapons derived from the Necro-sword, and sets them loose on the Marvel Universe. When a bunch of major villains start dropping like roaches in a Raid commercial, no one says anything. But when Reed Richards, Wolverine, Tony Stark, the Hulk, Gamora, Hawkeye, Deadpool, Hank Pym, Captain Marvel and others are all expunged with the same type of Necro weapon, everyone takes notice. The Scourge has begun!

[Doombot]

Sub-Mariner #24 Apr 1970
"The Lady and the Tiger-Shark"
Krang gloats over the defeated Sub-Mariner and then has Orka
dispatch his killer whales after Lady Dorma and her entourage;
Tiger Shark comes to their rescue

and Atlantis is forced to turn to him

to repulse the attack by Krang and his forces;
Namor is freed in the initial onslaught of the battle and turns his attention to Krang;
Tiger Shark and Orka attack each other

and their battle buries them both under some ruins.

Script by Roy Thomas, pencils by John Buscema, inks by Jim Mooney

Neither Orka or TigerShark are overused, I could use some more of them!

[Iron Maiden]

Neither Orka or TigerShark are overused, I could use some more of them!

Yeah, Tiger Shark can be pretty frightening killing machine, like Jaws on land, if done right. Any hero that isn't in some heavy costume or armor can get seriously hurt by those razor sharp teeth. Is he still as strong as Namor? And I think that would be on land or sea.