Is there anything that we can do about Berganza and Editorial?

[Ascended]

Stuff like this is why they probably don't take us seriously, to be honest. Batman fans seem to all be on the same page, more or less, than Superman fans. Meanwhile you have Superman fans wanting the marriage back, but not. Or wanting the Kents alive, but not. This is how we got the disastrous 2009 origin that tried to be all things to all fans. And I don't think that Berzanga harassing women is a minor issue. Now, we don't necessarily need to bring it up in the petition but the ugly truth is, that the longer they go without replacing him, the more it will become an issue. And then whatever skeletons in the closet he's got hanging over them will come out. It really is in DC's best interest to address this.

I think you're absolutely right on both counts.

The divide in fandom is, really, a result of the many variations on Superman we've had. Batman has, largely, been much more consistent. Sure, he went from a gun-totting avenger of the night to a silly, Adam West-ish character and then back to a dark avenger, but for the most part he's been consistently handled and his status quo has remained largely the same, discounting an ever-growing number of sidekicks, the ebb and flow of culture, and the regular, short-term shock value changes (like JimBats or AzBats or what have you). Superman however, has been many different things (social crusader, flag-waving patriot, cosmic scientist, patriarchal figure, etc) and fans latch onto different visions.

Its a problem of DC's own making that has had the unfortunate consequence of dividing the fanbase and making us all seem insane. And generally, most businesses take the opinions of their customers with a grain of salt; what we say we want is rarely what we actually buy. Just look at the constant cries for variety; we say we want it, but when DC trots out a book that does something really different (like Prez or Dial H) no one buys it. So why would they listen to us in the first place when we dont put our money where our mouths are? Which brings us to the idea of a Super-boycott. If this whole thing is going to have any hope of working, we have to hit DC in their wallet; its the only place where our voices will be heard and taken seriously.

As for Berganza, I agree its a problem. Even if its not true (I have no idea, Ive just heard rumors) the fact that the rumors persist will cause a problem down the road. The whole situation is a time bomb waiting to go off in DC's face. Though given that Lobdell escaped any censure Im inclined to believe that DC wont care unless it ends up in court, and only then if it gets publicized to their detriment. For the purposes of this petition however, it's outside our purview. Let Berganza's victim/s, their lawyers, and the justice system deal with him. All that is outside our ability to influence (other than jury tampering I suppose) but getting him off the Superman titles? that's something we may, theoretically, be capable of, even if they're long odds.

[DeathFalcon182]

How does one create a petition then? I'll do it. I'm literally in front of a computer as we speak. Even though, I like the recent Superman stories. I can use a bit of something fresh. He isn't being used to his full potential imo.

I wonder if we could get some support from Superman Homepage.

https://www.change.org
I think first we should go over a rough draft (here or group pms?) and then make the actual thing.

[superduperman]

I think you're absolutely right on both counts.

The divide in fandom is, really, a result of the many variations on Superman we've had. Batman has, largely, been much more consistent. Sure, he went from a gun-totting avenger of the night to a silly, Adam West-ish character and then back to a dark avenger, but for the most part he's been consistently handled and his status quo has remained largely the same, discounting an ever-growing number of sidekicks, the ebb and flow of culture, and the regular, short-term shock value changes (like JimBats or AzBats or what have you). Superman however, has been many different things (social crusader, flag-waving patriot, cosmic scientist, patriarchal figure, etc) and fans latch onto different visions.

Its a problem of DC's own making that has had the unfortunate consequence of dividing the fanbase and making us all seem insane. And generally, most businesses take the opinions of their customers with a grain of salt; what we say we want is rarely what we actually buy. Just look at the constant cries for variety; we say we want it, but when DC trots out a book that does something really different (like Prez or Dial H) no one buys it. So why would they listen to us in the first place when we dont put our money where our mouths are? Which brings us to the idea of a Super-boycott. If this whole thing is going to have any hope of working, we have to hit DC in their wallet; its the only place where our voices will be heard and taken seriously.

As for Berganza, I agree its a problem. Even if its not true (I have no idea, Ive just heard rumors) the fact that the rumors persist will cause a problem down the road. The whole situation is a time bomb waiting to go off in DC's face. Though given that Lobdell escaped any censure Im inclined to believe that DC wont care unless it ends up in court, and only then if it gets publicized to their detriment. For the purposes of this petition however, it's outside our purview. Let Berganza's victim/s, their lawyers, and the justice system deal with him. All that is outside our ability to influence (other than jury tampering I suppose) but getting him off the Superman titles? that's something we may, theoretically, be capable of, even if they're long odds.

Trying new ideas with Superman is also a mixed bag. The two best Super-books on the shelves right now are American Alien and Lois and Clark. Both feature alternate versions of the character. One is doing way better than anyone expected while the other recently had it's run cut back despite fans saying they wanted that version back but are not picking it up. This sends mixed messages to the PTB. We need to try to at least get on the same page a little bit here. L&C is shaping up like he's going to lose his powers and be stuck in "new" Earth ALA Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow? Now, whether this was the original plan all along I don't know. But this strikes me as not what fans of that version would want. So whose idea was it?

Some people are talking about pre-reboot numbers on the Super-books now. If they were willing to restart their entire universe over that five years ago, imagine what they would be willing to do if the numbers went even lower? But in order for that to work, we have to start agreeing a little bit about what it is we want.

[Starchild]

https://www.change.org
I think first we should go over a rough draft (here or group pms?) and then make the actual thing.

Sounds good. Here would be cool, since this is something we are all deeply passionate about. We all want change, we just need to use our voices and spread the word.

[My Two Cents]

The stories them selves when taken one at a time have not been bad, they have entertained (imho)
it is when they combine and make the Clark Kent who appeared in comics decades ago super and the
man shown in comics these last fifteen years average that the problem starts and ends (imho)

[Tayswift]

I think you're absolutely right on both counts.

The divide in fandom is, really, a result of the many variations on Superman we've had. Batman has, largely, been much more consistent. Sure, he went from a gun-totting avenger of the night to a silly, Adam West-ish character and then back to a dark avenger, but for the most part he's been consistently handled and his status quo has remained largely the same, discounting an ever-growing number of sidekicks, the ebb and flow of culture, and the regular, short-term shock value changes (like JimBats or AzBats or what have you). Superman however, has been many different things (social crusader, flag-waving patriot, cosmic scientist, patriarchal figure, etc) and fans latch onto different visions.

Its a problem of DC's own making that has had the unfortunate consequence of dividing the fanbase and making us all seem insane. And generally, most businesses take the opinions of their customers with a grain of salt; what we say we want is rarely what we actually buy. Just look at the constant cries for variety; we say we want it, but when DC trots out a book that does something really different (like Prez or Dial H) no one buys it. So why would they listen to us in the first place when we dont put our money where our mouths are? Which brings us to the idea of a Super-boycott. If this whole thing is going to have any hope of working, we have to hit DC in their wallet; its the only place where our voices will be heard and taken seriously.

As for Berganza, I agree its a problem. Even if its not true (I have no idea, Ive just heard rumors) the fact that the rumors persist will cause a problem down the road. The whole situation is a time bomb waiting to go off in DC's face. Though given that Lobdell escaped any censure Im inclined to believe that DC wont care unless it ends up in court, and only then if it gets publicized to their detriment. For the purposes of this petition however, it's outside our purview. Let Berganza's victim/s, their lawyers, and the justice system deal with him. All that is outside our ability to influence (other than jury tampering I suppose) but getting him off the Superman titles? that's something we may, theoretically, be capable of, even if they're long odds.

http://twitter.com/search?q=berganza...anLee&src=typd
this account is used by people who are insiders on the comics industry.

DC has serious problems with sexual harassment, just ask formers editors mariah huehner and valerie D'orazio. to not say I'm anti-DC darkhorse has the same problems too.
Lobdell is friends with Harras so he is protect by it.

mention sexual harassment would call a lot of atention for the petition for sure.

[Ascended]

Sounds good. Here would be cool, since this is something we are all deeply passionate about. We all want change, we just need to use our voices and spread the word.

If we at least keep this thread going, it also increases the odds of someone at DC seeing it and realizing that the fanbase is starting to unify against the current administration. Im fine with it either way personally, but this doesnt feel like a very professional venue.

Some people are talking about pre-reboot numbers on the Super-books now. If they were willing to restart their entire universe over that five years ago, imagine what they would be willing to do if the numbers went even lower? But in order for that to work, we have to start agreeing a little bit about what it is we want.

So, what exactly is it that we're looking for here?

We should also acknowledge the fact that Berganza might not be the problem. He edited the line once before and I don't recall it being this bad. And very little has changed since Idleson left, we're still getting the same type of stuff we had a problem with before. So what if Berganza's taking his marching orders from someone further up the chain of command? Even Didio might not be the one responsible; the edict of constant crossovers and not letting a creative team do any world building might be coming from WB. So our efforts need to take that into account as well.

I think we need to ask ourselves if the group editor is the problem after all, or whether it might go higher. Our petition and efforts here need to be open-ended enough to tackle the source of the problem, not what we perceive the source of the problem to be. We're not inside DC so we really dont know, we're just assuming its the editor. So rather than saying "We want a new editor" it might be better to say "We want these particular things to change"

http://twitter.com/search?q=berganza...anLee&src=typd
this account is used by people who are insiders on the comics industry.

mention sexual harassment would call a lot of atention for the petition for sure.

Thanks for the link.

I think the harassment would certainly increase the odds of the petition getting attention....but is it the kind we want? Would that shift focus away from what we're after (better, more consistent Superman comics) and turn it into a battle against Berganza personally? If these rumors of harassment are true then I want Berganza to pay the price as much as anyone else....but the purpose here isn't to get rid of Berganza per say, its getting better Superman comics, and that just likely includes (but is not limited to) getting a new editor.

Im not saying one way or the other, (I really dont have an opinion on this as of yet) just typing out loud.

[Tayswift]

So, what exactly is it that we're looking for here?

We should also acknowledge the fact that Berganza might not be the problem. He edited the line once before and I don't recall it being this bad. And very little has changed since Idleson left, we're still getting the same type of stuff we had a problem with before. So what if Berganza's taking his marching orders from someone further up the chain of command? Even Didio might not be the one responsible; the edict of constant crossovers and not letting a creative team do any world building might be coming from WB. So our efforts need to take that into account as well.

I think we need to ask ourselves if the group editor is the problem after all, or whether it might go higher. Our petition and efforts here need to be open-ended enough to tackle the source of the problem, not what we perceive the source of the problem to be. We're not inside DC so we really dont know, we're just assuming its the editor. So rather than saying "We want a new editor" it might be better to say "We want these particular things to change"

I don't think WB would ask for crossovers. they want to sell comics, but the execution are made by the people on charge of comics.

Thanks for the link.

I think the harassment would certainly increase the odds of the petition getting attention....but is it the kind we want? Would that shift focus away from what we're after (better, more consistent Superman comics) and turn it into a battle against Berganza personally? If these rumors of harassment are true then I want Berganza to pay the price as much as anyone else....but the purpose here isn't to get rid of Berganza per say, its getting better Superman comics, and that just likely includes (but is not limited to) getting a new editor.

Im not saying one way or the other, (I really dont have an opinion on this as of yet) just typing out loud.

well if the case is only getting better superman comics, with or without Berganza, maybe the case is not mention it.

[Ascended]

I don't think WB would ask for crossovers. they want to sell comics, but the execution are made by the people on charge of comics.

well if the case is only getting better superman comics, with or without Berganza, maybe the case is not mention it.

No, I doubt WB are the ones demanding crossovers; they're just demanding more profit. The management at DC would be the ones demanding crossovers because its a cheap and quick way to increase sales. Or, it was. Truth has proven that isnt going to work anymore.

And I think this petition needs to be very focused and clear in its goals; I think if we go after Berganza specifically we run the risk of not hitting the root of the problem. The line is being handled the same way as it was under Idleson so that tells me the editor isnt the (only) problem. But again, Im no expert on petitions so maybe its something we should include. I dont think so, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, after the news we've gotten today, who here wants to jump in on this ride? Because my interest in putting the screws to DC has gone way, way up in the last twelve hours.

[Last Son of Krypton]

WB also demand last minute rewrites as revealed by Perez: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/07/...-at-dc-comics/

[Sacred Knight]

I think the answer to this question will be no, nothing can be done about Berganza. But by god something can be done about those pesky creative people. None of those on the Superman titles.

[Tony]

http://twitter.com/search?q=berganza...anLee&src=typd
this account is used by people who are insiders on the comics industry.

From what I can see this is just one over opinionated nut. I see no credibility. Seems to hate Eddie, Max Landis and Stan Lee saying crazy stuff about others to sound outlandish

and the blurb

That's right, true believer...not the real Stan, just an incredible simulation. If you're a hypersensitive pansy, my tweets will trigger you. Grow a pair.

doesn't inspire faith that he's anything but a clown.

Reading a bit further spreads the hate to lots of others and firms my opinion this account is a joke.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Yeah, my understanding is also that that account's really not great, same as the 'Which Comics Creators Not To Trust' one on there. There's a pressing need to deal with this sort of thing - I think unofficially institutionalized permission of harassment at DC is a way bigger concern than the quality of the Superman books - but contextless call-outs from uninvolved third parties isn't the way to do it.

[Tayswift]

From what I can see this is just one over opinionated nut. I see no credibility. Seems to hate Eddie, Max Landis and Stan Lee saying crazy stuff about others to sound outlandish

and the blurb

That's right, true believer...not the real Stan, just an incredible simulation. If you're a hypersensitive pansy, my tweets will trigger you. Grow a pair.

doesn't inspire faith that he's anything but a clown.

Reading a bit further spreads the hate to lots of others and firms my opinion this account is a joke.

not 100% serious, it is a parody account after all. but the people running it has insider information on comics industry. http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/07/...peak-its-name/

if the sexual harassment case is a big joke on comics circles, well...

[Rakzo]

I think there's very little we can do if the rumours about Berganza's "privileges" are true.

That being said, is still a pretty problematic and unproffesional situation that is quite embarrasing. DC should have done something about him already and I'm not talking about limiting him to a lesser book but instead putting him in a place where he doesn't have as much power nor present a threat for everyone else.

Plus, we definitely need a better editor in the line. Someone who can actually let the creative teams create and hire talented people to make it improve.