Is anyone else sick of the DC bashing?

[Götterdämmerung]

As someone who frequents both the Marvel and DC Board's, the amount of utter hate and vitriol on the DC boards is leagues (no pun intended) worse than Marvel.

That's not to say that marvel doesn't get it's fair share of hate, but it's typically 1 of two things:

1: A vocal minority of disgruntled x-fans with no valid complaints other than "gimme mutants", or
2: people complaining about marvel shoving diversity down their throats

theres also a group of people upset due to event fatigue, but that's really it. You don't have 17 threads talking about how the entire company is sabotaging itself and ruining mythos and has no handle on any of it's characters other than Spiderman (Batman).

I dunno, the only Marvel title I can't do without currently is Invincible Iron Man and possibly the ANAD Avengers (the Steve Rogers: Cap looks promising). When it comes to DC, there are a dozen. In the 70s you could reverse that.

[Cmbmool]

I'm not sick of it because honestly parts of the bashing is well deserved. I mean DC, despite some good ideas, often make foolish missteps and get fans in an uproar that they fully deserved.

[inisideguy]

Well I will start this off and say i am not an inside comic book guy. I read trades on my kindle. I like some I dont like some. I guess I have never quite got the bashing only from this perspective. I just cant believe there was a time where everything dc put out was awesome. I dont read marvel but have a hard time believing everything they put out is awesome. There is always gonna be good books and bad books. And some of these books are good or bad depending on your perspective. I listen to alot of podcast and will hear the reviews and honestly I kinda shake my head. They will review some dc books and give them good reviews then go on and say dc is all jacked up. Kinda baffling if you ask me. Its like they or some people want every product dc puts out to be some perfect book in their minds. Which is pretty much impossible. So ok thats my opinion.

[Lightning Rider]

Well I will start this off and say i am not an inside comic book guy. I read trades on my kindle. I like some I dont like some. I guess I have never quite got the bashing only from this perspective. I just cant believe there was a time where everything dc put out was awesome. I dont read marvel but have a hard time believing everything they put out is awesome. There is always gonna be good books and bad books. And some of these books are good or bad depending on your perspective. I listen to alot of podcast and will hear the reviews and honestly I kinda shake my head. They will review some dc books and give them good reviews then go on and say dc is all jacked up. Kinda baffling if you ask me. Its like they or some people want every product dc puts out to be some perfect book in their minds. Which is pretty much impossible. So ok thats my opinion.

I totally get the good books/bad books thing. I don't doubt the New 52 has a lot of good books out there. But certain things fans loved and became invested in are gone. For example, I can pick up Grayson or Aquaman and enjoy them, but I can't look forward to any JLA crossovers or Flash events without having to confront the unappealing fact that nuBarry and nuWally have replaced the Flash family stories I used to enjoy. That vital piece of the overall "Universe" is gone for me.

Some of the stuff pre-52 wasn't good obviously. I remember dropping titles and switching titles. But if a new writer came on, I could take comfort in the fact that certain things would still be there. Things in the story could change and change back, characters could die or go somewhere and come back, but the story never acted like the characters I loved never existed. That's hard to get used to. It wasn't so much that there was a point at which every book was awesome, but it was a point all the characters you could make awesome books with were there to be played with.

[inisideguy]

I totally get the good books/bad books thing. I don't doubt the New 52 has a lot of good books out there. But certain things fans loved and became invested in are gone. For example, I can pick up Grayson or Aquaman and enjoy them, but I can't look forward to any JLA crossovers or Flash events without having to confront the unappealing fact that nuBarry and nuWally have replaced the Flash family stories I used to enjoy. That vital piece of the overall "Universe" is gone for me.

Some of the stuff pre-52 wasn't good obviously. I remember dropping titles and switching titles. But if a new writer came on, I could take comfort in the fact that certain things would still be there. Things in the story could change and change back, characters could die or go somewhere and come back, but the story never acted like the characters I loved never existed. That's hard to get used to. It wasn't so much that there was a point at which every book was awesome, but it was a point all the characters you could make awesome books with were there to be played with.

No I see what you are saying. But my investment in who was who when and where they were and are is not as concrete perhaps as others. I understand that. Maybe thats why in the big picture I dont get the hate so much. If you have a long time investment in a certain character and that particular character has changed and isnt the one you like I can sort of see why you would be upset. I dont really look at comics that way. Maybe thats my bag. I mean I read alot of marvel when I was a kid. When I see oh I dont know iron man not acting like the iron man I knew in the comics it doesnt really bug me. These characters are always changing in some respect. They almost have to.

[Lightning Rider]

No I see what you are saying. But my investment in who was who when and where they were and are is not as concrete perhaps as others. I understand that. Maybe thats why in the big picture I dont get the hate so much. If you have a long time investment in a certain character and that particular character has changed and isnt the one you like I can sort of see why you would be upset. I dont really look at comics that way. Maybe thats my bag. I mean I read alot of marvel when I was a kid. When I see oh I dont know iron man not acting like the iron man I knew in the comics it doesnt really bug me. These characters are always changing in some respect. They almost have to.

Yeah, I think it's the scale at which it happened. I can pick up a comic book and not like that one interpretation...but I'm not necessarily stuck with it, with the one I do like forever out of reach. And it doesn't extent to like 10 of my other favorite characters. I can wait for a new writer to take the story in a new direction closer to what I like. Nothing is necessarily amputated, typically.

For example, I didn't really like when Bart Allen was the Flash. He was for about a year. But after that year, Wally came back. I was happy. Although his last run wasn't the best. Eventually Bart came back as his younger self, and that was nice too. Then Barry was supposed to come back; I was excited even though I was a Wally fan. New stories to be told with an iconic character. Then Barry was retconned and every other Flash character is supposed to never have existed....see what I mean? It's all just gone. Not on hold, not having a turn, erased. That happened for half the DC Universe. So it makes me reluctant to kind of dive in and embrace a whole universe trying to reinvent itself at once, especially when the reception is so mixed.

[inisideguy]

Yeah, I think it's the scale at which it happened. I can pick up a comic book and not like that one interpretation...but I'm not necessarily stuck with it, with the one I do like forever out of reach. And it doesn't extent to like 10 of my other favorite characters. I can wait for a new writer to take the story in a new direction closer to what I like. Nothing is necessarily amputated, typically.

For example, I didn't really like when Bart Allen was the Flash. He was for about a year. But after that year, Wally came back. I was happy. Although his last run wasn't the best. Eventually Bart came back as his younger self, and that was nice too. Then Barry was supposed to come back; I was excited even though I was a Wally fan. New stories to be told with an iconic character. Then Barry was retconned and every other Flash character is supposed to never have existed....see what I mean? It's all just gone. Not on hold, not having a turn, erased. That happened for half the DC Universe. So it makes me reluctant to kind of dive in and embrace a whole universe trying to reinvent itself at once, especially when the reception is so mixed.

Yea I get what you are saying. As a fan but not a casual fan I dont get to wrapped up in it. I like Jonah Hex. Well then he went to new 52 Jonah Hex. I liked how they incorporated him into that. The only thing that bugs me is new 52 jonah hex was selling better than vertigo jonah hex yet they canned him anyway. Cause I guess well it was a company thing. But I am sure hex will be back at some point. For me personally and hell it doesnt matter cause I am not the market they look for the thing I cant stand is crossovers and events. Cause it messes up my trade reading. I cant figure out wtf is going on. My guess is its like that at marvel to. I am sort of the type of guy who likes at least whatever trade im reading to be continuos and not all weirded out by crossovers that are not included. I dont know how in the flying fart any guy who picks up floppies at dc or marvel can deal with it. Its like reading a novel then a quarter way though the book they say some character shows up and they say well you have to read this other novel from this other writer to figure out how he got here and why. Thats what buggs me.

[Lightning Rider]

Yea I get what you are saying. As a fan but not a casual fan I dont get to wrapped up in it. I like Jonah Hex. Well then he went to new 52 Jonah Hex. I liked how they incorporated him into that. The only thing that bugs me is new 52 jonah hex was selling better than vertigo jonah hex yet they canned him anyway. Cause I guess well it was a company thing. But I am sure hex will be back at some point.

Alas, I wonder what that certainty is like.

For me personally and hell it doesnt matter cause I am not the market they look for the thing I cant stand is crossovers and events. Cause it messes up my trade reading. I cant figure out wtf is going on. My guess is its like that at marvel to. I am sort of the type of guy who likes at least whatever trade im reading to be continuos and not all weirded out by crossovers that are not included. I dont know how in the flying fart any guy who picks up floppies at dc or marvel can deal with it. Its like reading a novel then a quarter way though the book they say some character shows up and they say well you have to read this other novel from this other writer to figure out how he got here and why. Thats what buggs me.

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of crossovers. I became more and more annoyed over the years at "Events" shaking everything up and confusing you because of the ripples it sent throughout every title.

[inisideguy]

Alas, I wonder what that certainty is like.



Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of crossovers. I became more and more annoyed over the years at "Events" shaking everything up and confusing you because of the ripples it sent throughout every title.

When I was a kid and again I dont think thats its the relevant in modern comic reading but I dont recall spidey ever crossing over with anyone. EVER. What got me out of my original comic reading is it started happening in in the late 80s. Secret wars then some x men book started crossing over with new mutants and some other x men book. It all went crazy from there. I was like screw this im out. Thats why I think Image is doing better and better. Its one story and you follow that story. Crazy huh. But comic book fans are weird. Like for example astro city does exactly what I want in a comic book. I think it does that for me and about 5,000 other readers lol cause as good as it is no one reads it.

[Doctor Bifrost]

but I dont recall spidey ever crossing over with anyone

It depends on your era, of course, but Spider-Man did cross over with other characters. I fondly remember a story in which he fought Quicksilver. Spidey had his own storyline going on, which was not derailed by this encounter. And Quicksilver was trying to prove himself to the Avengers after a certain unfortunate incident - you could actually figure out what comic Quicksilver had been in just before this fight, and then what comic he was in right after it. The story made sense for both characters.

But that's very different from these massive all-encompassing "events," where virtually every series and every character has to change his direction for a few months to be included in The Big Event (meetings with other heroes, battles with everybody) - and then come back to their own, disrupted stories after the dust settled. People frequently point to such events as examples of "strong continuity" (and thus proof that strong continuity is bad), but frequently they messed up continuity something brutal, because they imposed a narrative direction on multiple comics that didn't really make sense with the ongoing story the writers of those comics had been telling.

Similarly, the "every hero knows every other hero and turns to them for help all the time, and, oh yeah, they're all dating each other, and maybe rooming together, and there are very few non-superheroes around" style that we see today makes the stories less interesting to me. (Wonder Woman calls Cyborg up for info, and uses the JLA transporters to get across the country, and doesn't seem to be doing anything on her own.) I prefer it when each hero has his or her own storyline which keeps them pretty busy; that we get to see the heroes as exceptional in contrast to the ordinary people around them; and they only run into each other when it really makes sense and improves the story.

(Of course, if you're trying to do that, it works better if most of your characters aren't insanely powerful and surrounded by miracle tech. If Oliver Queen, trapped on a boat in the middle of the ocean, can yell "Hey, Clark, help!", and Superman comes flying in in a matter of seconds, you've set a precedent that causes trouble later, if you pay attention to it.)

One of the things that I don't like about the current Earth-2 storyline is that you've got this new world populated by millions of human beings, but only the superheroes ("wonders") "count." They don't have much in the way of a non-superpowered supporting cast. In the current issue, Green Lantern says to Lois Lane (Red Tornado) "I was going to write a constitution, but people on this planet don't trust us wonders, and they look at me like a god, not a human. So maybe you should write it." Lois says, "you think I'm human?", and he says, "Well, more than me." (Paraphrased.)

Point taken. But since humans on this world don't trust wonders, shouldn't he have picked an actual human for the job? There's millions of them! Surely there's a few who would do as good a job as Lois.

Similarly - and here I will state what I imagine to be an Unpopular Opinion - at one time Green Lantern used to be about an individual who worked as a GL for the Guardians, had his own sector, and did his own job. He would run into other members of the GLC rarely. And they would only get together as a big group very rarely.

Now it's mainly all-Corps activities all the time. (Although Hal is briefly on Earth by himself.) They travel in huge groups; the only supporting cast they have is each other; they fix problems caused by the Guardians in the first place, or caused by the GLC trying to solve the last problem. To me a Green Lantern isn't very special anymore, just one of a mob with identical equipment, shared origins, and similar powers. It all folds in on itself.

But that's just me. I know a lot of people love the way it's being done, and I don't begrudge them their enjoyment.

[Lightning Rider]

Yeah, the GL corps concept has kind of restricted the building of supporting casts for GL's. Ones that tie them to ordinary people/beings anyway.

[inisideguy]

It depends on your era, of course, but Spider-Man did cross over with other characters. I fondly remember a story in which he fought Quicksilver. Spidey had his own storyline going on, which was not derailed by this encounter. And Quicksilver was trying to prove himself to the Avengers after a certain unfortunate incident - you could actually figure out what comic Quicksilver had been in just before this fight, and then what comic he was in right after it. The story made sense for both characters.

But that's very different from these massive all-encompassing "events," where virtually every series and every character has to change his direction for a few months to be included in The Big Event (meetings with other heroes, battles with everybody) - and then come back to their own, disrupted stories after the dust settled. People frequently point to such events as examples of "strong continuity" (and thus proof that strong continuity is bad), but frequently they messed up continuity something brutal, because they imposed a narrative direction on multiple comics that didn't really make sense with the ongoing story the writers of those comics had been telling.

Similarly, the "every hero knows every other hero and turns to them for help all the time, and, oh yeah, they're all dating each other, and maybe rooming together, and there are very few non-superheroes around" style that we see today makes the stories less interesting to me. (Wonder Woman calls Cyborg up for info, and uses the JLA transporters to get across the country, and doesn't seem to be doing anything on her own.) I prefer it when each hero has his or her own storyline which keeps them pretty busy; that we get to see the heroes as exceptional in contrast to the ordinary people around them; and they only run into each other when it really makes sense and improves the story.

(Of course, if you're trying to do that, it works better if most of your characters aren't insanely powerful and surrounded by miracle tech. If Oliver Queen, trapped on a boat in the middle of the ocean, can yell "Hey, Clark, help!", and Superman comes flying in in a matter of seconds, you've set a precedent that causes trouble later, if you pay attention to it.)

One of the things that I don't like about the current Earth-2 storyline is that you've got this new world populated by millions of human beings, but only the superheroes ("wonders") "count." They don't have much in the way of a non-superpowered supporting cast. In the current issue, Green Lantern says to Lois Lane (Red Tornado) "I was going to write a constitution, but people on this planet don't trust us wonders, and they look at me like a god, not a human. So maybe you should write it." Lois says, "you think I'm human?", and he says, "Well, more than me." (Paraphrased.)

Point taken. But since humans on this world don't trust wonders, shouldn't he have picked an actual human for the job? There's millions of them! Surely there's a few who would do as good a job as Lois.

Similarly - and here I will state what I imagine to be an Unpopular Opinion - at one time Green Lantern used to be about an individual who worked as a GL for the Guardians, had his own sector, and did his own job. He would run into other members of the GLC rarely. And they would only get together as a big group very rarely.

Now it's mainly all-Corps activities all the time. (Although Hal is briefly on Earth by himself.) They travel in huge groups; the only supporting cast they have is each other; they fix problems caused by the Guardians in the first place, or caused by the GLC trying to solve the last problem. To me a Green Lantern isn't very special anymore, just one of a mob with identical equipment, shared origins, and similar powers. It all folds in on itself.

But that's just me. I know a lot of people love the way it's being done, and I don't begrudge them their enjoyment.

You are correct. When I was little my brother collected marvel and there was one avengers/defenders crossover that i freaking loved. I must have read that a thousand times. I think it was basically 6 issues? I think it was an attempt by marvel to get that defenders book to sell. Which didnt happen. But that was the only crossover I can remember. Spidey might run into daredevil or someone else but you did not have to buy the daredevil to see how the story ended. They had a team up book for that. The story lines were continuous but that whole concept is dead at least at marvel and dc. Its all about trying to get the most money as fast as possible. I think the art and stories are on average better than ever but its the way they put out the books that drives this middle aged comic reader bonkers.

[HaveAtThee]

Both positivism and negativity can be taken overboard on message boards. Longtime readers, I would think, complain because they feel that both of the "Big Two" are sacrificing their core constituents and customers to appeal to a new audience. At least that's my two cents. I never understood catering to particular groups at the expense of others. There are enough characters and enough topical subjects to appeal to as many readers as possible.

[Götterdämmerung]

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of the naysayers are so because they are...well, older. They fell in love with a title at a young age, got older, and now everything pales in comparison. Kind of like how older people condescend to the Rock of today. There are plenty of great things going on in DC comics today (significantly more than Marvel imo).

[John Ossie]

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of the naysayers are so because they are...well, older. They fell in love with a title at a young age, got older, and now everything pales in comparison. Kind of like how older people condescend to the Rock of today. There are plenty of great things going on in DC comics today (significantly more than Marvel imo).

''The Rock of today''? Please tell me you're not comparing mr Monotone voice who doesn't know how to take a bump or cut a promo John Cena to the Rock?