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  1. #16
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    My core problem with clones (Reilly, Kane, etc.) is that up until the time of their "birth"/activation, They haven't truly "earned" any of their relationships, compared to the original. Absolutely none. They might feel similar emotions, have the "same" memories, but they didn't earn any of it. It's not the same thing as a twin, not by a long shot. Twins don't have note-for-note POV recollection of every single thing they've experienced, even if in the same room.

    It would be creepy to me for Kaine to try and date any of Peter's exes because he "knew" them previously.
    I follow your line of thought, but I'm wondering why it's an issue for you when what you describe has never really been a part of any Spider book. Any relationship Ben or Kaine "haven't truly earned" was actively ran away from by both men. In his solo series, Kaine moved to Houston to completely remove himself from Peter Parker's life. And back in the days of the Clone Saga, even when he was back in NYC, Ben actively tried to stay away from anyone who knew Peter so that people wouldn't ask questions.

    In fact, that's one of the major arguments in FAVOR of having these guys back: having them in a book requires us to ponder what it would mean to let go of a life that every part of your being says is your own.

    -Pav, who only wants Ben back in the hands of the right writer *cough*I'lldoit*cough*...
    You were Spider-Man then. You and Peter had agreed on it. But he came back right when you started feeling comfortable.
    You know what it means when he comes back
    .

    "You're not the better one, Peter. You're just older."
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  2. #17
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    I follow your line of thought, but I'm wondering why it's an issue for you when what you describe has never really been a part of any Spider book. Any relationship Ben or Kaine "haven't truly earned" was actively ran away from by both men. In his solo series, Kaine moved to Houston to completely remove himself from Peter Parker's life. And back in the days of the Clone Saga, even when he was back in NYC, Ben actively tried to stay away from anyone who knew Peter so that people wouldn't ask questions.

    In fact, that's one of the major arguments in FAVOR of having these guys back: having them in a book requires us to ponder what it would mean to let go of a life that every part of your being says is your own.

    -Pav, who only wants Ben back in the hands of the right writer *cough*I'lldoit*cough*...


    great point. i'd add that (last i heard) kaine didn't have any of peter's memories, other than a fuzzy fondness for the things he loved.

    and i'd further add that scientifically speaking, there is no difference between exact copies, as all experience and personality is simply data. if the data can be replicated exactly then the "copy" is no less deserving than the "original". also see star trek transporter theory. the only thing that complicates that is if you believe in souls.
    troo fan or death

  3. #18
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    great point. i'd add that (last i heard) kaine didn't have any of peter's memories, other than a fuzzy fondness for the things he loved.

    and i'd further add that scientifically speaking, there is no difference between exact copies, as all experience and personality is simply data. if the data can be replicated exactly then the "copy" is no less deserving than the "original". also see star trek transporter theory. the only thing that complicates that is if you believe in souls.
    Which, from what I've heard, contradicts the scene in Spider-Man: Redemption (starring Ben Reilly as Spider-Man at the time) where Kaine admits to Ben that he remembers living Peter's life up until he woke up in the Jackal's cloning chamber. Other than that, Chris Yost did a very bang-up job (re)defining Kaine's character in his Scarlet Spider and New Warriors series --- a worthy successor to J.M. DeMatteis, in my view.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member Prime's Avatar
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    I don't think Ben is coming back.

  5. #20
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    OP -

    I wish Ben would return, however I doubt he will anytime soon.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Which, from what I've heard, contradicts the scene in Spider-Man: Redemption (starring Ben Reilly as Spider-Man at the time) where Kaine admits to Ben that he remembers living Peter's life up until he woke up in the Jackal's cloning chamber. Other than that, Chris Yost did a very bang-up job (re)defining Kaine's character in his Scarlet Spider and New Warriors series --- a worthy successor to J.M. DeMatteis, in my view.
    hmmm, i read that mini religiously as a wee comic geek and i don't recall that at all. kaine says he remembers fire and burning and wanting to be loved (by the jackal) and that he remembers ghosts of what peter does. i'm going to bet what you've heard is good ol' internet gobbledygook.

    it was the first page of one of the redemption issues, possibly the final one.
    troo fan or death

  7. #22
    Amazing Member Snidlefighter's Avatar
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    If they ever do bring back Scarlet Spider (Ben Reilly) I want him in his first costume. The Red Suit with the blue hoodie has always looked awesome to me. Never cared for his updated official Spiderman costume.

  8. #23
    Spectacular Member JTait's Avatar
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    I am a big fan of Ben Reilly but I don't really see a place for him within the Spider-Verse at the moment. There are plenty of other characters serving then purpose that he would presumably be used for if he were resurrected.

    His character has been touched on several times in recent years, so I actually think that fans of Ben are relatively lucky. I wouldn't be surprised if he was brought back one day, but I am guessing that it won't be for a long time.

  9. #24
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    Once again Reed Richards is an a-hole. First he doesn't fix it so Uncle Ben didn't have to die, second he didn't bring Gwen Stacy back, and now we find out he let Ben Reilly still undergo his gruesome fate. Guessing that he also let Hitler overrun everything, allowed JFK to die, and still allowed 9/11. A-HOLE!
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Once again Reed Richards is an a-hole. First he doesn't fix it so Uncle Ben didn't have to die, second he didn't bring Gwen Stacy back, and now we find out he let Ben Reilly still undergo his gruesome fate. Guessing that he also let Hitler overrun everything, allowed JFK to die, and still allowed 9/11. A-HOLE!
    sarcasm-sense....tingling
    troo fan or death

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Once again Reed Richards is an a-hole. First he doesn't fix it so Uncle Ben didn't have to die, second he didn't bring Gwen Stacy back, and now we find out he let Ben Reilly still undergo his gruesome fate. Guessing that he also let Hitler overrun everything, allowed JFK to die, and still allowed 9/11. A-HOLE!
    This is nothing new. Personally the thought of Reed being in charge of recreating the multi-verse is terrifying.

  12. #27
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    hmmm, i read that mini religiously as a wee comic geek and i don't recall that at all. kaine says he remembers fire and burning and wanting to be loved (by the jackal) and that he remembers ghosts of what peter does. i'm going to bet what you've heard is good ol' internet gobbledygook.

    it was the first page of one of the redemption issues, possibly the final one.
    Probably. Thanks, though it does still contradict what Yost established about Kaine having no memories from Peter's life whatsoever.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Probably. Thanks, though it does still contradict what Yost established about Kaine having no memories from Peter's life whatsoever.
    no worries, have a read of that mini series if you get a chance…you might enjoy it!

    i don’t think you need to see it as a contradiction though, it’s really more of a gradient. if i get black out drunk i might not “recall” or have “memories” of the night but there’s bound to some residuals in there.
    troo fan or death

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    no worries, have a read of that mini series if you get a chance…you might enjoy it!

    i don’t think you need to see it as a contradiction though, it’s really more of a gradient. if i get black out drunk i might not “recall” or have “memories” of the night but there’s bound to some residuals in there.
    I'm sure I will. I love the crap out of Ben Reilly and Kaine, whether it's J.M. DeMatteis writing them or Chris Yost (or Mike Costa).
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  15. #30
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Chris Yost did a very bang-up job (re)defining Kaine's character in his Scarlet Spider and New Warriors series --- a worthy successor to J.M. DeMatteis, in my view.
    I'll respectfully disagree. I liked Yost's work okay, but I felt it lacked the gravitas that defines DeMatteis' earlier work with the Spider-Clones. Different strokes and all that, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snidlefighter View Post
    If they ever do bring back Scarlet Spider (Ben Reilly) I want him in his first costume. The Red Suit with the blue hoodie has always looked awesome to me. Never cared for his updated official Spiderman costume.
    I really liked his updated Spidey costume - I still probably like it better than Peter's original duds - but yeah, I'm with you: I'm all about that Scarlet Spider outfit. It helps define Ben's reality as a clone in a way his Spidey outfit doesn't (as that one seeks to legitimize him as "real").

    The best thing about Ben's Spidey costume was the way it looked when he was bonded with Carnage. THAT was a great look.

    Quote Originally Posted by JTait View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if he was brought back one day, but I am guessing that it won't be for a long time.
    To be cliche, The Powers That Be will bring him back WHEN WE LEAST EXPECT IT!!!

    -Pav, who'd like to be in charge of that...
    You were Spider-Man then. You and Peter had agreed on it. But he came back right when you started feeling comfortable.
    You know what it means when he comes back
    .

    "You're not the better one, Peter. You're just older."
    --------------------
    Closet full of comics? Consider donating to my school! DM for details

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