Will Magneto's heritage have to be amended at some point?

[t hedge coke]

God willing, there will only be one Holocaust (this is not, of course, to downplay any of the atrocities that have happened in Sudan, Rwanda or North Korea, but the Holocaust, in all its horror, is still burned into our collective human consciousness).

It does downplay it, though. The Holocaust, while massively horrendous, was and is not the only major genocidal act even in the last 100 years. WW2, while a brutal war, is not the worst or most significant war. When you drop that into the MU/616, it's even more skewed, because the 616 is nuts. (Slorenia. Whatever, finally, happened with James Proudstar's nation. Dr. Doom's crematorium. And everybody loves enslaving or blowing up people living in the Savage Land.)

Punisher, I think, is much stronger tied to Vietnam, and post-Vietnam atmospherics, because his character type really was generated from those energies, that atmosphere.

Plus, really, I'm a bit tired of some fans pulling the "of course he's a genocidal angry madman, he suffering in the Holocaust as if anyone who actually did went on to become a genocidal, nuke-stealing, nation-conquering, enslaving madman. There is definitely no "of course he..." there. That's not a thing with the comics, themselves, just with a subsection of fans, but my distaste stands.

[ScottSummers]

It does downplay it, though. The Holocaust, while massively horrendous, was and is not the only major genocidal act even in the last 100 years. WW2, while a brutal war, is not the worst or most significant war. When you drop that into the MU/616, it's even more skewed, because the 616 is nuts. (Slorenia. Whatever, finally, happened with James Proudstar's nation. Dr. Doom's crematorium. And everybody loves enslaving or blowing up people living in the Savage Land.)

Punisher, I think, is much stronger tied to Vietnam, and post-Vietnam atmospherics, because his character type really was generated from those energies, that atmosphere.

Plus, really, I'm a bit tired of some fans pulling the "of course he's a genocidal angry madman, he suffering in the Holocaust as if anyone who actually did went on to become a genocidal, nuke-stealing, nation-conquering, enslaving madman. There is definitely no "of course he..." there. That's not a thing with the comics, themselves, just with a subsection of fans, but my distaste stands.

Honestly as easy as it is to understand Magneto's views in light of his Holocaust experience, it's also sort of insulting to Jewish people. I don't know any Jewish people who survived the Holocaust and went on a terrorist killing spree. I think of it more as being dramatic irony, not so much something I'd expect a person who lived through genocide to do. I'd expect someone who lived through an atrocity with the same relative health as Magneto to actually try to lobby for peace if anything.

[ScottSummers]

I think like Cap, Magneto should always be tied to WWII. Whether that means he was de-aged along the way or his force-of-nature powers keep him young-ish, that matters not. I can deal with Frank Castle being a Gulf or Iraq war vet, for example, because there will always be horrendous wars that scar their veterans mentally as well as physically. But, God willing, there will only be one Holocaust (this is not, of course, to downplay any of the atrocities that have happened in Sudan, Rwanda or North Korea, but the Holocaust, in all its horror, is still burned into our collective human consciousness).

There's going to be another Holocaust at some point, bet on that. But I agree, at least as far as history is concerned there is only the one. My question is does that really matter as far as the fiction is concerned? I agree with T Hedge about Punisher, he seems more tied to his era since he also draws from a lot of popular movie and entertainment tropes of the day. He's a lot like Charles Bronson and that book character The Executioner. Does Magneto's genocide need to be The Holocaust? Because as best I can tell he could've turned out the same regardless of the genocide.

Not to open this can of worms either, but maybe they could justify making him black or another race too.

[ScottSummers]

People read comics where stuff like mutant powers, radioactive spider bites, gamma-induced mutation, time travel, pantheons of gods, aliens, cloning, returning from the dead and so on are all real things, and still find time to complain that Magneto (or Captain America) are too far removed from WWII? I mean, come on, Cap, the super serum, retcon when he was thawed out etc, Magneto, he has been deaged at least once. Modern audiences don't find WWII relevant any more? Well, what if it had been a fictional war, but the characters were around as long as they have been? Would that be more or less relevant?
I'd argue that, even today, the Nazis and Hitler are still convenient shorthand for all that is evil and base in human nature, what happens when a whole civilised country is run by those intent on unprecedented evil in a way that no modern regime has (thankfully) quite matched in its breadth or scope. I think WWII humanises Cap and Magneto (well, human mutant), and adds much that would be lost if their backgrounds were retconned. Iron Man, not having been involved in as iconic a war, can be moved around to some generic desert conflict without equivalent damage to his backstory. In my opinion, of course. Yours may differ.

In 2040 when our generations hypothetical children first learn about WWII it's going to be very different. Just like it was for us to learn about WWI (once called "The Great War") or The Spanish-American War (also once regarded as iconic), or how we don't seem to regard James K Polk as all that important (despite being really, really important). I used to interview my Grandparents for reports on it. Our perspectives are more firmly rooted in the 20th century. The more we move away from that the more it'll change the point of reference future generations have to it.

Part of the reason Ultimate Cap is so jingoistic and racist is because of that. Lots of young kids see the older generations that way. I for one am glad they made Cap a super-nice-guy in the movie though...there's enough cynicism in Hollywood.

[BlitheringToot]

Honestly as easy as it is to understand Magneto's views in light of his Holocaust experience, it's also sort of insulting to Jewish people. I don't know any Jewish people who survived the Holocaust and went on a terrorist killing spree. I think of it more as being dramatic irony, not so much something I'd expect a person who lived through genocide to do. I'd expect someone who lived through an atrocity with the same relative health as Magneto to actually try to lobby for peace if anything.

But that's just it, though: Magneto is ONE Jewish Holocaust survivor who went batsh!t afterward. He does not represent Holocaust survivors as a whole, and certainly shouldn't be seen as a positive example of one, but that's who HE is. Some people lobby for peace ... Magneto said "Never again" and became a terrorist. But then, that's kind of how I looked at the Mandarin controversy in "Iron Man 3." As much as I enjoyed the final product, I still felt cheated by the rationale of changing the Mandarin around. True, the Mandarin is not a positive example of a Chinese man; indeed, some might argue that his Fu Manchu-ish antics are racist. NOT all Chinese men look, dress, or behave like the Mandarin--in fact, MOST don't. But the Mandarin DOES. That's who the character is. The answer is not to change the characters to make them fit better within how society would like them to be but to create MORE characters that DO. Magneto and the Mandarin are who they are.

[dragonmp93]

Honestly as easy as it is to understand Magneto's views in light of his Holocaust experience, it's also sort of insulting to Jewish people. I don't know any Jewish people who survived the Holocaust and went on a terrorist killing spree. I think of it more as being dramatic irony, not so much something I'd expect a person who lived through genocide to do. I'd expect someone who lived through an atrocity with the same relative health as Magneto to actually try to lobby for peace if anything.

AHEM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_hunter

There's going to be another Holocaust at some point, bet on that. But I agree, at least as far as history is concerned there is only the one. My question is does that really matter as far as the fiction is concerned? I agree with T Hedge about Punisher, he seems more tied to his era since he also draws from a lot of popular movie and entertainment tropes of the day. He's a lot like Charles Bronson and that book character The Executioner. Does Magneto's genocide need to be The Holocaust? Because as best I can tell he could've turned out the same regardless of the genocide.

Not to open this can of worms either, but maybe they could justify making him black or another race too.

Yeah, in the Ultimate universe, he turned into a complete !"#$%&/&%$ monster.

[ScottSummers]

But that's just it, though: Magneto is ONE Jewish Holocaust survivor who went batsh!t afterward. He does not represent Holocaust survivors as a whole, and certainly shouldn't be seen as a positive example of one, but that's who HE is. Some people lobby for peace ... Magneto said "Never again" and became a terrorist. But then, that's kind of how I looked at the Mandarin controversy in "Iron Man 3." As much as I enjoyed the final product, I still felt cheated by the rationale of changing the Mandarin around. True, the Mandarin is not a positive example of a Chinese man; indeed, some might argue that his Fu Manchu-ish antics are racist. NOT all Chinese men look, dress, or behave like the Mandarin--in fact, MOST don't. But the Mandarin DOES. That's who the character is. The answer is not to change the characters to make them fit better within how society would like them to be but to create MORE characters that DO. Magneto and the Mandarin are who they are.

Yeah, I'm not opening that Mandarin PC-bullsh** can of worms here...although strangely I do remember some Jewish groups being semi-outraged when the first movie came out due to the implication.

I think more my point is for Magneto to be who he is, if I accept the premise of the character (which I do) then it really doesn't have to be The Holocaust. A person could reach a similar conclusion to Magneto from a lesser conflict, because to the person surviving genocide it's not like a competition between genocides or anything. They use the Holocaust in X-Men because it's a shorthand for genocide. So the reader reads it and goes "okay, yeah, I know what he's talking about". I don't see anything specific about that event that is really unique to him. He could've developed a similar outlook in a different era.

[harashkupo]

I started this discussion in another thread, but I seriously wonder if in 2030 whether World War II will be a feasible birthplace for characters not named Steve Rogers. Natasha, Fury, Magneto and Xavier (who is dead) and Juggernaut are all tied to history that is rapidly fading away.

Magneto became a Holocaust survivor about the time the movies are using him now. When his character was roughly 40-50s. In 2020 the youngest he could possible be without de-aging is 78-77ish and that really robs him of any memory of the camps. Even with the de-aging the timeline is becoming strained. One thing I suppose is you could kill him and bring back the O5 Magneto through time.

I also wonder if future generations will view those eras the same way, or whether they'll be more fascinated by other eras like the tech boom, or something. I liked how Ultimates did their own thing with Magneto. Some hated that, but I liked it.

There are more characters like this as well including the Zemos, Zola, Sabretooth (slow aging I assume), Pietro and Wanda were alleged to be born after the war.

Do you think eventually Marvel will have to move into a more modern era and abandon some past ties. This seems like it'll eventually have to be addressed.

That's a good point and it's weird think how much of an impact living memory has on this or any other medium. I remember when stuff like Titanic, Saving Private Ryan, and Band of Brothers came out and each time there would be tons of interviews of the people that actually lived through those times and how that resonates with through each generation. So what will happen when there is no connection?

I also wonder if this is the future of Marvel and DC storytelling. If it's just going to be a series of recons of these characters to the point of being recognizable in name only. Maybe it's time to seriously consider or invest in aging these universes to start building something. Maybe, maybe not.

[Ant-manic]

no grasp of history. Magneto was de-aged by Mutant Alpha. that's why he doesn't look 100 years old. same reason Xavier didn't look 100 years old. this isn't a real concern. the next time they want to age reboot him, they can just stick his consciousness into Joseph's body.

[Mikekerr3]

Honestly as easy as it is to understand Magneto's views in light of his Holocaust experience, it's also sort of insulting to Jewish people. I don't know any Jewish people who survived the Holocaust and went on a terrorist killing spree. I think of it more as being dramatic irony, not so much something I'd expect a person who lived through genocide to do. I'd expect someone who lived through an atrocity with the same relative health as Magneto to actually try to lobby for peace if anything.

There have been whole books written on tha the subject of hunting down the m hazi's and there were more than a few attempted reprisals in the aftermath of WWII,

[Habis]

no grasp of history. Magneto was de-aged by Mutant Alpha. that's why he doesn't look 100 years old. same reason Xavier didn't look 100 years old. this isn't a real concern. the next time they want to age reboot him, they can just stick his consciousness into Joseph's body.

I may be wrong, but I think Magneto was de-aged shortly before the creation of the second X-Men team. Kitty Pryde has aged less than seven years since then. That means that the earliest Magneto who fought the X-Men was already an septuagenary or octogenary.

I think they will just keep dancing around the issue of the twisted timeline. If they can keep Franklin Richards an eternal boy while his sister grows and reaches him, they can keep Magneto as an Holocaust survivor.

[ScottSummers]

That's a good point and it's weird think how much of an impact living memory has on this or any other medium. I remember when stuff like Titanic, Saving Private Ryan, and Band of Brothers came out and each time there would be tons of interviews of the people that actually lived through those times and how that resonates with through each generation. So what will happen when there is no connection?

I also wonder if this is the future of Marvel and DC storytelling. If it's just going to be a series of recons of these characters to the point of being recognizable in name only. Maybe it's time to seriously consider or invest in aging these universes to start building something. Maybe, maybe not.

Living memory is huge.

Losing living memory of the Holocaust in my mind could have some unintended consequences. America's very nihilistic youth coupled with what seem to be a real blase' attitude about anti-Semitism (look at how many Liberals gave no sh**s over Whacklemore's clear Jewish stereotype while performing Thrift Shop) coupled with our increasing inability to take unpopular moral stances really scares me.

I seriously wonder with the economy the way it is if a Hitler isn't in the far off future.

[KurtW95]

I really hope that Magneto's origin is never lost.

[just another user]

The fantastic 4 had their rocket flight 13 years ago, which currently means 2001. There's nothing to say that history in 616 is exactly the same as in real life, so maybe WW2 was more recent, around 1980 or so. That allows all the older stories to be cannon.

[harashkupo]

Living memory is huge.

Losing living memory of the Holocaust in my mind could have some unintended consequences. America's very nihilistic youth coupled with what seem to be a real blase' attitude about anti-Semitism (look at how many Liberals gave no sh**s over Whacklemore's clear Jewish stereotype while performing Thrift Shop) coupled with our increasing inability to take unpopular moral stances really scares me.

I seriously wonder with the economy the way it is if a Hitler isn't in the far off future.

Wow you took what I said and really ran with it in a direction I didn't expect. I'm not to comfy with any kind of political talks so I'll just stick with living memory and how that may affect the character and comics in general if that's cool.

I really wonder once there's no connection to these events, that are so important to a lot these guys, will these characters just get a retcon that will be more relatable to future readers?