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  1. #841
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I love The Muppets but I think Superheroes are a little more versatile in the kind of approaches/material they can deal with. Like from their inception Superheroes are these outlandish figures who tackle real world issues like crime, social issues, gender equality, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    It reminded me of the roughest parts of Young Justice season 3. The budget clearly isn't there.
    Both share the issue of sometimes needing to use still images to carry the story to give the animators a break but at least the movies have never done something on par with that video game/Wally fever dream sequence...

  2. #842
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    You said you don't think character should dictate what kind of stories work and don't work with them. But now you're saying there's something innate about Kermit the Frog as a character that dictates what kind of stories work and don't work with him.

    Superman is a man from outer space who dresses in a primary coloured unitard and cape, he goes around saving the day by performing impossible feats like flying with no means of propulsion, his primary form of disguise is a pair of glasses, one of his greatest enemies is a magical imp who plays tricks on him, he has a pet dog with the same amazing powers who also wears a little cape, he has a friend in the distant future named Matter Eater Lad, with the ability to eat all matter. To many people, Superman is very much a puppet frog of a character.
    Your criticism doesn’t seem very well thought out. Because there are fantastic elements to a character that means they can’t grapple with more adult issues? That flies in the face of how superheroes began:

    There’s always been a willingness to grapple with darker sides of life. That’s not true of the Muppets. They’re meant to only entertain children and maybe provide some basic education. Comics have moved beyond that since the 80s. You sound like someone who wants the Comic Code back. “These characters are corrupting our children so we have to neuter anything that might mislead them from being true Americans” is basically the argument in Seduction of the Innocents.

    There are comic books for children and books for adults and superheroes can operate in stories for both. They always have, DC has the kids book like WW Warbringer and Superman Smashes the Klan, to go alongside the mainline books. Superman’s story begins with his planet blowing up and everyone dying. Sometimes his adopted parents the Kents die as well. Barry Allen was put on trial for snapping Thawne’s neck. Wally West’s time as the Flash had a ton of dark stories. The idea that there are some characters who simply can’t have good dark stories just doesn’t really hold up at all with the last couple of years. Ever since CoIE DC has moved towards darker themes in both good and bad stories.

    That all said, the tone seems to be lightening up with Superman Man of Tomorrow even if it’s going to be dealing with issues of xenophobia.
    Last edited by Vordan; 05-11-2020 at 06:46 PM.

  3. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Your criticism doesn’t seem very well thought out. Because there are fantastic elements to a character that means they can’t grapple with more adult issues? That flies in the face of how superheroes began:
    I don't think that panel is adult in the same way that Apokolips War is adult. And I don't think Apokolips War is adult in any positive meaning of the word, just unsuitable for children.

    That's a fine panel because it has Superman being compassionate and understanding, extending a helping hand, seeking out a positive solution. It's not an R rated panel. Lois Lane isn't getting torn apart and beaten to death with her own limbs in the background.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    There’s always been a willingness to grapple with darker sides of life. That’s not true of the Muppets. They’re meant to only entertain children and maybe provide some basic education. Comics have moved beyond that since the 80s.
    The Muppet Christmas Carol is of greater value than Justice League Dark: Apokolips War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    You sound like someone who wants the Comic Code back. “These characters are corrupting our children so we have to neuter anything that might mislead them from being true Americans” is basically the argument in Seduction of the Innocents.
    I enjoy a lot of comics and animated movies made for an adult audience.

    I think a gory, miserable, R-rated Superman, Captain Marvel or Justice League cartoon is stupid and sophomoric. Just as you (correctly) find the idea of a Muppet adaptation of Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita to be preposterous.

    Conversely, I also think RoboCop: The Animated Series, made for children, was a stupid idea.

  4. #844
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I don't think that panel is adult in the same way that Apokolips War is adult. And I don't think Apokolips War is adult in any positive meaning of the word, just unsuitable for children.

    That's a fine panel because it has Superman being compassionate and understanding, extending a helping hand, seeking out a positive solution. It's not an R rated panel. Lois Lane isn't getting torn apart and beaten to death with her own limbs in the background.
    But Superman can be that same character in a much darker and bleaker setting. I haven't seen the film but I know Superman stops Raven from committing suicide and rallies the heroes to fight the good fight against Darkseid even when things are at their bleakest.
    The Muppet Christmas Carol is of greater value than Justice League Dark: Apokolips War.
    What is even the point of comparing them? It would be like comparing Under the Red Hood to Muppets from Space.
    I enjoy a lot of comics and animated movies made for an adult audience.

    I think a gory, miserable, R-rated Superman, Captain Marvel or Justice League cartoon is stupid and sophomoric. Just as you (correctly) find the idea of a Muppet adaptation of Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita to be preposterous.

    Conversely, I also think RoboCop: The Animated Series, made for children, was a stupid idea.
    I mean, considering the comics I don't think it's that much of a stretch for the properties.

  5. #845
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    But Superman can be that same character in a much darker and bleaker setting. I haven't seen the film but I know Superman stops Raven from committing suicide and rallies the heroes to fight the good fight against Darkseid even when things are at their bleakest.
    Kermit the Frog can still be an in-character Kermit the Frog in an R-rated setting. It doesn't matter. It misses the point.

  6. #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Kermit the Frog can still be an in-character Kermit the Frog in an R-rated setting. It doesn't matter. It misses the point.
    I don't think it does, if only because The Muppets don't have the same kind of variance in tone and story that Superheroes do.

  7. #847
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Kermit the Frog can still be an in-character Kermit the Frog in an R-rated setting. It doesn't matter. It misses the point.
    What is the point Exactly?what's superman's point? No, do the right thing ain't it nor is truth, justice and american way.simply put, "bullying ain't cool.rich, strong, smart, alien, god... Etc whatever it doesn't matter who does it and how they choose to do it. That includes superman himself".that's the point of the character and that can get pretty adult, if you want to go that route. Furthermore, the main protagonist(superman) is also a bully fighting for the bullied, who pretty much uses violence. Superman is a pulp fiction character who is inspired by tarzan and zorro. Tarzan a character that almost ate a human, not knowing what he is. He has the same dna as batman. Superman actually used to lift people by the legs, throw them around and slams them into walls. The character has literally snapped necks of people . Superman breaks down the slum, i believe in the issue panel @vordan posted. So that government rebuilds and gives them good housing, if i remember correctly.What's next superman can't be in a attack on the titans cross over?too violent!!! Why do people have wierd notions about this particular character is beyond me?

    Again, superman is for kids. Kids have the first claim on superman . Kids should be the first one's to get into him. But, be honest about the character to get them in. Toning down the violence is fine for them. But, these points simply doesn't mean that superman stories can't be made for an adult audiences.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-12-2020 at 01:26 AM.

  8. #848
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think it does, if only because The Muppets don't have the same kind of variance in tone and story that Superheroes do.
    I think there’s a limit. And for me this movie crosses that limit. Any movie where Captain Marvel gets his leg bloodily ripped off has misused the character. I’m not asking you to have the same limit.

    More often the issue is the depiction and handling of the subject matter, rather than the subject matter itself. The new DuckTales cartoon had one of its cartoon duck characters have to amputate their own leg. The show treats the loss of a limb far more maturely and sensitivity than this movie.
    Last edited by Lee; 05-12-2020 at 02:31 AM.

  9. #849
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    so Apokolips War was terrible. Bought it from google play and I have was increasingly disliking it so much that I got a refund when it was over.

  10. #850
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    Just a reminder, DON'T GIVE THEM ANY IDEAS! An R-rated Muppets? Given recent ominous trends in doing...just that...with other children's TV shows, yeah, please stop mentioning Muppets...they MIGHT be listening! I mean man, pretty soon they'll have Big Bird (yeah, I know it's Sesame Street, but go with it), as a serial killer pursued by detective Cookie Monster, with decapitations galore. Wait...ignore that, rights holders to Sesame Street! Pretend you didn't see that...

  11. #851
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Does that count? 🤣


  12. #852
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Does that count? ��

    Argh, they beat us to it!

  13. #853
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    You said you don't think character should dictate what kind of stories work and don't work with them. But now you're saying there's something innate about Kermit the Frog as a character that dictates what kind of stories work and don't work with him.

    Superman is a man from outer space who dresses in a primary coloured unitard and cape, he goes around saving the day by performing impossible feats like flying with no means of propulsion, his primary form of disguise is a pair of glasses, one of his greatest enemies is a magical imp who plays tricks on him, he has a pet dog with the same amazing powers who also wears a little cape, he has a friend in the distant future named Matter Eater Lad, with the ability to eat all matter. To many people, Superman is very much a puppet frog of a character.
    I disagree - Superman isn't a Kermit the Frog. When I said what I said, I was thinking of characters that are human and human-like, who can run the full gamut of human emotions and experiences. It doesn't matter what Superman can do or does do, he's human enough to work in ALL human stories. A puppet can't necessarily do that, especially a floppy puppet like the Muppets. But comparing them to Superman I feel is disingenuous in the extreme. There's nothing about Superman that bars him from such stories - not his powers, not the act of saving people, and no not even his suit of many primary colors.

  14. #854
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I think there’s a limit. And for me this movie crosses that limit. Any movie where Captain Marvel gets his leg bloodily ripped off has misused the character. I’m not asking you to have the same limit.
    Fair enough.
    More often the issue is the depiction and handling of the subject matter, rather than the subject matter itself. The new DuckTales cartoon had one of its cartoon duck characters have to amputate their own leg. The show treats the loss of a limb far more maturely and sensitivity than this movie.
    I'd have to actually see the movie but I imagine I'd probably think the movie's handling is just in an entirely different context in the service of an entirely different story then in the case of Della.

  15. #855
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I don't think that panel is adult in the same way that Apokolips War is adult. And I don't think Apokolips War is adult in any positive meaning of the word, just unsuitable for children.
    Does that matter? I get you don't like it, but should the likes and dislikes of only one segment of a fandom determine whether such stories are allowed to be told?

    That's a fine panel because it has Superman being compassionate and understanding, extending a helping hand, seeking out a positive solution. It's not an R rated panel. Lois Lane isn't getting torn apart and beaten to death with her own limbs in the background.
    But if it did, would that again matter? It's not like such a panel would be in a book for kids. Superman is just as much for adults as kids, and adults can handle such things.

    The Muppet Christmas Carol is of greater value than Justice League Dark: Apokolips War.
    And what does value have to do with it? Stories of no value exist, always have, always will, and it works out fine.

    I think a gory, miserable, R-rated Superman, Captain Marvel or Justice League cartoon is stupid and sophomoric. Just as you (correctly) find the idea of a Muppet adaptation of Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita to be preposterous.
    And even if you were 100% right about it being stupid, why does that matter? People make stupid books, comic,books, cartoons, shows, movies, and so on all the time. Stupid media is a huge part of the landscape.

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