DC Animated Original Movies Discussion

[darkseidpwns]

I feel like the recent set of animated movies get a lot of undeserved hate from comic fans. The original line had a few stinkers as well yet everyone glosses over those for some reason. GL: Emerald Knights, Batman: Gotham Knight, Superman Doomsday, Superman Unbound, and All Star Superman weren't exactly winners. So far the worst movies of the Nu Era (this universe needs a name) are Son of Batman and Batman vs Robin. The latter lists gets a lot of flack gets a lot of flack while the former gets glossed over.

Justice League vs Teen Titans, Flashpoint Paradox, Bad Blood, and Throne of Atlantis were pretty entertaining in my opinion. Assault on Arkham and Gods & Monsters were good too. So i don't know where the claim of the animated movies quality going down comes from?

If you use IMDB where thousands of people rate them then all the movies average between 6.5 and 7.5/10. Only TDKR, Flashpoint and UTRH are 8 and above, Batman vs Robin is actually neck and neck with UTRH if you go by Rotten Tomatoes. Of those movies rated 8 and above Bruce Timm was heavily involved in 3 of them while Olivia also directed 3 of them. I personally found SOB and Throne the worst of the bunch and the one thing in common between them was Ethan Spaulding as director, that guy has been dropped altogether so clearly DC animation felt the same about him as I did.
The quality is still the same as usual, now people are just getting entitled over the characters that are appearing (or not) or non sense New-52 complaints. Timm himself just got blasted for TKJ and now he's down to making Harley movies lol, clearly fans have complaints over things other than the actual talent involved in making these films. It's clear that quality is not the issue, the issue is DC animation's working model which isn't going to change, they are more likely to stop making movies altogether than not make Batman and JL movies. Fans need to get over it now, Marvel doesn't even make movies on a regular basis.

[Jabare]

I feel like the recent set of animated movies get a lot of undeserved hate from comic fans. The original line had a few stinkers as well yet everyone glosses over those for some reason. GL: Emerald Knights, Batman: Gotham Knight, Superman Doomsday, Superman Unbound, and All Star Superman weren't exactly winners. So far the worst movies of the Nu Era (this universe needs a name) are Son of Batman and Batman vs Robin. The latter lists gets a lot of flack gets a lot of flack while the former gets glossed over.

Justice League vs Teen Titans, Flashpoint Paradox, Bad Blood, and Throne of Atlantis were pretty entertaining in my opinion. Assault on Arkham and Gods & Monsters were good too. So i don't know where the claim of the animated movies quality going down comes from?

The direction and writing is decidedly different also all the Jay Olivia(sp) movies are rushed and you can tell occasionally by the animation like with Justice League War.

Gods and Monsters felt like an old school DC animation because Timm did it, and he was one of the 4 main architects of everything DC animation before.

GL Emerald Knights was fine animation wise, but there was no overarching story just a bunch of mini stories that weren't compelling.

Batman: Gotham Knight was just a series of short animations with different anime styles hardly a typical DC animation but it is notable for how different it is and DC willing to diversify it's animation. Plus they jus kind of farmed it out to a japanese company so it's not something you can compare to every other DC animation company.

Superman Doomsday was amazing for that 11 minute Superman and Doomsday fight scene. The rest of the movie was mediocre because they completely changed the story and didn't do a real adaptation because it would have been too long.

Superman Unbound is decent. It's just a standard Superman vs Braniac story.

I didn't like All Star Superman but it highly regarded by many fans so for those who liked the All star Superman story it pretty much does it justice.


Flashpoint Paradox is mixed. It's kind of a set up movie. Overall its a god film but its kind of depressing and doesn't lead you feeling good at the end.


JL vs Titans, Bad Blood, and Atlantis all have subpar direction and are relatively rushed, like most of the DC films focusing on fight scenes than flushing out a complete narrative.


JL vs Titans is one of the better Nu animations but it's a Demian movie like every film he is in end of the day and the pacing is rushed it could be broken into two or three films and it would have been stronger granting very character a little more balance and focus. And stopping the ending from feeling rushed.



Bad Blood is the perfect example of a so-so movie that should have been amazing. The film had no focus. It should have been a Nightwing movie, heck it could have been a Batwing or Batwoman movie, instead it chose neither and was lesser for the missed oppurtunity. The ending We didn't get the payoff we wanted for having Dick dawn the mantle as we did in the comics. Batwing and Batwoman barely get an introduction. To make maters worse its completely Batwoman's fault Batman gets caught in the beginning. Than kind of surprisingly Nightwing is denied a heroic moment to save the day which really surprised me.


Throne of Atlantis has a small pacing problem first it's a little too slow than things go a little too fast. I think these films would be amazing if they could be a little longer.




Jay Oliva is clearly at his best handling action scenes and he's obviously a big anime fan. He's mentioned recent anime techniques as inspirations in interviews and stylistically its blatantly obvious in movies he's using techniques popularized in recent anime shows and popular anime movies. Sometimes it isn't even subtle. As the director for an animation where he is obviously under the gun to rush things out which was evident by some unfinished animated frames in his first 3 films, I'm not sure if I should place the lack of smooth flowing narrative on him or the writer Heath Corson. It is my estimation that a lot of the complaints around the new movies are due to the scripts. They are written differently than the original scripts would be and are not paced well. The films seem to excel during action sequences and fall a little short with the narratives. But its not like all the original animations were hits either plenty of older DC films got mixed reviews.


End of the day the most noticeable difference is Timm vs Jay Oliva. Timm had his patented formula, his distinct action scenes and tended to follow similar narrative tones and for the most part had good pacing (not always). He also tended to place an emphasis on Batman more than the others. Jay Oliva handles his fight scenes differently than Timm his pacing is a little all over the place and he tends to handle story elements a little differently. Jay doesn't really put the subtle emphasis on Batman that Timm always does (or maybe I should thank Heath Corson for this) which I find refreshing, but the new JL Dark movie might be DC reverting back to all things Batman.

[Agent Z]

If you use IMDB where thousands of people rate them then all the movies average between 6.5 and 7.5/10. Only TDKR, Flashpoint and UTRH are 8 and above, Batman vs Robin is actually neck and neck with UTRH if you go by Rotten Tomatoes. Of those movies rated 8 and above Bruce Timm was heavily involved in 3 of them while Olivia also directed 3 of them. I personally found SOB and Throne the worst of the bunch and the one thing in common between them was Ethan Spaulding as director, that guy has been dropped altogether so clearly DC animation felt the same about him as I did.
The quality is still the same as usual, now people are just getting entitled over the characters that are appearing (or not) or non sense New-52 complaints. Timm himself just got blasted for TKJ and now he's down to making Harley movies lol, clearly fans have complaints over things other than the actual talent involved in making these films. It's clear that quality is not the issue, the issue is DC animation's working model which isn't going to change, they are more likely to stop making movies altogether than not make Batman and JL movies. Fans need to get over it now, Marvel doesn't even make movies on a regular basis.

It's easier to build up straw men than focus on the actual criticisms.

[darkseidpwns]

It's easier to build up straw men than focus on the actual criticisms.

What straw men? most DC movies pretty much fall in the same place quality wise going by IMDB. You want to use sales? fine SOB sold more than all the other movies made in the last 6 years and counting, beating out both parts of the much loved TDKR put together.

Other than mindless internet whining over Batman and Damian being everywhere or "I HATE NEW-52" what criticisms do you actually see?

[Frontier]

I do think probably the biggest issue that the current, in-continuity, animated movies have is that they have a little too much to juggle in their limited runtime which can leave a lot of things feeling underdeveloped or tacked on to the movie.

Personally, I think that's why Batman vs. Robin was probably one of the more solid entries in this continuity, because it had a more focused story and plot without having to juggle multiple characters and sub-plots like the other movies have.

[Agent Z]

What straw men? most DC movies pretty much fall in the same place quality wise going by IMDB. You want to use sales? fine SOB sold more than all the other movies made in the last 6 years and counting, beating out both parts of the much loved TDKR put together.

Other than mindless internet whining over Batman and Damian being everywhere or "I HATE NEW-52" what criticisms do you actually see?

Well if you'd actually look instead of focusing on the arguments you like to pick apart

-Poor pacing
-Mishandling of source material (and given some of these stories aren't even that good, that's saying something)
-Bland animation
-Crappy characterization
-Lack of meaningful development

I also said nothing regarding sales and frankly sales do not always equal quality as proven by Michael Bay and Zack Snyder (And I say this as someone who likes BvS and MoS to an extent). The most recent DCU animated movie sure as hell isn't getting criticism just due to it being a Batman movie.

[Frontier]

Well if you'd actually look instead of focusing on the arguments you like to pick apart

-Poor pacing
-Mishandling of source material (and given some of these stories aren't even that good, that's saying something)
-Bland animation
-Crappy characterization
-Lack of meaningful development

I also said nothing regarding sales and frankly sales do not always equal quality as proven by Michael Bay and Zack Snyder (And I say this as someone who likes BvS and MoS to an extent). The most recent DCU animated movie sure as hell isn't getting criticism just due to it being a Batman movie.

And a lot of this can be subjective (though I did bring up the pacing, even if I think it's more to do with the crew just working with what they have).

[Punisher007]

I thought that JL vs. TT was actually quite good myself. And some of the others (Throne of Atlantis, Bad Blood, etc) had their moments (the latter should have just been a Batwoman movie imo, her stuff was by far the most compelling there for me).

I think that, they lack focus a lot of the time and kind of meander around too much.

[darkseidpwns]

Well if you'd actually look instead of focusing on the arguments you like to pick apart

-Poor pacing
-Mishandling of source material (and given some of these stories aren't even that good, that's saying something)
-Bland animation
-Crappy characterization
-Lack of meaningful development

I also said nothing regarding sales and frankly sales do not always equal quality as proven by Michael Bay and Zack Snyder (And I say this as someone who likes BvS and MoS to an extent). The most recent DCU animated movie sure as hell isn't getting criticism just due to it being a Batman movie.

Those exact arguments were made by only Outside85 and he just posted them a few hours ago.

Poor pacing: Agree on SOB especially and TOA but Public Enemies was also poorly paced, so was Superman: Doomsday and even TKJ, so it's neither a new phenomenon nor a "New-52" movie one. MOS and BvS are horridly paced as well.

All source material is "mishandled" one way or another, this is a very shoddy and subjective argument, take BvS, you could argue it mishandled TDKR and DOS, you could argue Rises mishandled Knightfall, you argue Age of Ultron mishandled it's comic counter part. They've been open and candid about borrowing ideas from a variety of sources for new material, this is standard process and always has been. BTW accuracy to the source material doesn't guarantee anything special if Year One and TKJ are taken in to account, not everything is TDKR. They're only mishandling the story if they deliberately invoke the themes of the source material and miss the point, which they haven't done so far because these movies aren't deep or clever enough to make a blunder like that.

Animation is completely subjective here, the choice is understandable as this anime style is likely to sell more outside U.S.A.

Ok got me on characterization.

What is meaningful content? you get a movie, you enjoy it case closed,it's meaningful if you dont then stop buying.

The most recent animated movie was made by an animation maestro and before its release everyone was begging for him to return and save DC animation from Tucker, now he's suddenly public enemy number one because of a sex scene. Still TKJ is making money and it's rated on par with the standard output, it's just internet fanboys who are fuming because their head canons was burned to the ground.

[Agent Z]

Those exact arguments were made by only Outside85 and he just posted them a few hours ago.

Poor pacing: Agree on SOB especially and TOA but Public Enemies was also poorly paced, so was Superman: Doomsday and even TKJ, so it's neither a new phenomenon nor a "New-52" movie one. MOS and BvS are horridly paced as well.

All source material is "mishandled" one way or another, this is a very shoddy and subjective argument, take BvS, you could argue it mishandled TDKR and DOS, you could argue Rises mishandled Knightfall, you argue Age of Ultron mishandled it's comic counter part. They've been open and candid about borrowing ideas from a variety of sources for new material, this is standard process and always has been. BTW accuracy to the source material doesn't guarantee anything special if Year One and TKJ are taken in to account, not everything is TDKR. They're only mishandling the story if they deliberately invoke the themes of the source material and miss the point, which they haven't done so far because these movies aren't deep or clever enough to make a blunder like that.

Animation is completely subjective here, the choice is understandable as this anime style is likely to sell more outside U.S.A.

Ok got me on characterization.

What is meaningful content? you get a movie, you enjoy it case closed,it's meaningful if you dont then stop buying.

The most recent animated movie was made by an animation maestro and before its release everyone was begging for him to return and save DC animation from Tucker, now he's suddenly public enemy number one because of a sex scene. Still TKJ is making money and it's rated on par with the standard output, it's just internet fanboys who are fuming because their head canons was burned to the ground.

Again, sales mean nothing in terms of quality.

I think it's Timm's head canon is the one that should be judged here not fans.

[Frontier]

I thought that JL vs. TT was actually quite good myself. And some of the others (Throne of Atlantis, Bad Blood, etc) had their moments (the latter should have just been a Batwoman movie imo, her stuff was by far the most compelling there for me).

I think that, they lack focus a lot of the time and kind of meander around too much.

Yeah, I think each movie has had at least a few things going for it and good things that they've been able to accomplish, at least post-War and Son of Batman.

I maintain the big issue with the movies is that they take on too much and try to inject too many characters and elements into one movie in-spite of the limited run time they have to work with, though I guess I can't fault their ambition.

[Quiet Raven]

I really enjoy most of the ones I've seen. Batman/Superman Apocalypse, Public Enemies, Under the Red Hood, Justice League Doom, and Superman vs the Elites are all really good.

Though I didn't really like All Star Superman, or Gotham Knight.

[godisawesome]

I think the issue with the new films, particularly the ones in the same continuity, is that people don't like the formula, which feels a bit like taking the MCU formula and then throwing in a bit more gratuitous "adult content," which never goes that far but tends to irritate fans of the older stuff. Justice Legaue War does feel even more like "Geoff Johns does Joss Whedon" than the original story, particularly with the way they made Sueprman seem more brash and focused even Merle on the team conflict. The series seems to have quite a bit less effort in its villains, with Darkseid being a glorified punching bag, Ocean Master losing his nuance as an anti-villain while Black Manta gets taken out of the film like a chump, Ra's and numerous other Gotham Rogues being killed rather unceremoniously, Deathstroke being jobbed hard to Damian and not being well written either, and arguably all saving less purpose to their stories than you'd hope for in an actual cinematic adapatation.

And this one is highly subjective and specific to a particular fandom, but there's a perception that while these DCAU films show Batman favoritism, they may also be of inferior quality to their predecessors. Son of Batman, Batman vs. Robin, and Bad Blood are all tied together and still kind of live in the shadow of Under The Red Hood, Dark Knight Returns parts 1 & 2, Batman Year One, and arguably were still experiencing this with Batman: Assault on Arkham, and competing a bit with Batman Unlimited. At least the Justice League films were only dealing with the legacy of one great film (Crisis on Two Earths) and meeting the benchmark of Justice League: Doom. Most internet fans of the previous Batman entire would be very hard pressed to call the current string of Batmna films as on par with their predecessors, even if they think they're still pretty good. And it can be aggravating to some Batfamily fans if Nightwing seems underplayed compared to Batman, Batgirl absent, and when Batman Unlimted is featuring 3 seperate Robins while the new series seems to have neutered some of Damian's personality by making him more mundane in personality while more OTT in fighting abilities.

[darkseidpwns]

Again, sales mean nothing in terms of quality.

I think it's Timm's head canon is the one that should be judged here not fans.

That's a strawman if I ever saw one, do tell what exactly means something in terms of quality. As for Timm,like I said people were begging him to save DC animation before TKJ, now they've turned on him because of one sex scene. He made a mistake and the reason for that mistake was his insistence that Barbara be made relevant to the story that never required her to be anything other than a throwaway civilian, and the reason for that insistence was pressure from SJWs'. If it were up to me, I would have simply made the prologue about Batman and Jokers first encounter, a short Man who Laughs adaptation, wouldn't even have bothered with trying to make Barbara a thing.

[Frontier]

I think the issue with the new films, particularly the ones in the same continuity, is that people don't like the formula, which feels a bit like taking the MCU formula and then throwing in a bit more gratuitous "adult content," which never goes that far but tends to irritate fans of the older stuff. Justice Legaue War does feel even more like "Geoff Johns does Joss Whedon" than the original story, particularly with the way they made Sueprman seem more brash and focused even Merle on the team conflict. The series seems to have quite a bit less effort in its villains, with Darkseid being a glorified punching bag, Ocean Master losing his nuance as an anti-villain while Black Manta gets taken out of the film like a chump, Ra's and numerous other Gotham Rogues being killed rather unceremoniously, Deathstroke being jobbed hard to Damian and not being well written either, and arguably all saving less purpose to their stories than you'd hope for in an actual cinematic adapatation.

In fairness, while Ocean Master lost his nuance as a villain in that storyline, he let Sam Witwer go all-out on being an evil megalomaniac, which I thought was fun. And Black Manta went out in the best way possible .

Though I do think it's reasonable to say that, like the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies, within the runtime they have to work with they place much more emphasis on developing the heroes then they do the villains (at least so far).

The only "adult content" that really bothers me is the gratuitous violence that seems more prevalent now, and I guess to some degree more cursing.

Though, by comparison, the "adult content" with Batwoman in Bad Blood was far more tasteful and effectively used. And probably something you would never see in an MCU movie (but maybe in a Netflix show).

And this one is highly subjective and specific to a particular fandom, but there's a perception that while these DCAU films show Batman favoritism, they may also be of inferior quality to their predecessors. Son of Batman, Batman vs. Robin, and Bad Blood are all tied together and still kind of live in the shadow of Under The Red Hood, Dark Knight Returns parts 1 & 2, Batman Year One, and arguably were still experiencing this with Batman: Assault on Arkham, and competing a bit with Batman Unlimited. At least the Justice League films were only dealing with the legacy of one great film (Crisis on Two Earths) and meeting the benchmark of Justice League: Doom. Most internet fans of the previous Batman entire would be very hard pressed to call the current string of Batmna films as on par with their predecessors, even if they think they're still pretty good. And it can be aggravating to some Batfamily fans if Nightwing seems underplayed compared to Batman, Batgirl absent, and when Batman Unlimted is featuring 3 seperate Robins while the new series seems to have neutered some of Damian's personality by making him more mundane in personality while more OTT in fighting abilities.

I know a lot of people were not happy with Nigthwing's portrayal, from Son of Batman through Batman vs. Robin, which may have played a part in him becoming the lead of Bad Blood.

I'd say Batman Unlimited seems to be moreso neutering Damian's personality into something more mundane given what we've seen from Mechs vs. Mutants. He seems much more like a typical Robin then Damian generally is.

For all the flaws of Damian's portrayals in the animated movies, I think it's still pretty close to his comic personality, if sometimes lacking in depth or the same level of portrayal as from Morrsion (or Tomasi/Gleason).