DC Animated Original Movies Discussion

[Vakanai]

No, you're right I stated that very badly. That's a fair call.

My point is that they should not be attempting to create R-rated Justice League movies in the first place. And I absolutely stand by that. Again, that doesn't mean that R-rated stories can't be told with DC's characters but any sort of traditional superhero story with the likes of Superman and the Flash has no business trying to appeal only to adults. Not because comics and superheroes are only for kids but because built into the combination of these characters and these sorts of stories is something that is genuinely childlike and innocent so trying to mix that with brutal violence or, to a much lesser extent, sex and profanity, results in what I can only describe as an abomination. Every last inch of this movie felt wrong, even if I enjoyed parts of it. The goofy superhero stuff ends up looking extremely childish, while the "adult" content just looks desperate, out of place and particularly ugly. It may have been attempting to be an "adult" movie but it absolutely failed at reaching that goal - and, because of the material it was working with, it never actually had a chance in hell of doing so. The end result is a movie that looks far more juvenile than something explicitly aimed at kids like Teen Titans Go.

What's really befuddling about this movie, though, is that it has a genuinely good grasp on a character like Superman but somehow completely fails to see how incongruous it is to have such a traditional Superman share the screen with graphic depictions of Captain Marvel having his leg ripped off or Batgirl being eaten alive. Hell, just read that sentence again and tell me how any of this makes the slightest amount of sense.

R-rated DC animated films? Awesome. Give me adaptations of stuff like Morrison's Animal Man, Milligan's Shade the Changing Man, King's Mister Miracle or Robinson's Starman. Just don't give me embarrassingly adolescent crap like this. These characters and the audience deserve better.

Personally I disagree that there shouldn't be R Rated JL, Superman, and Flash movies. I agree with you these films are doing it poorly and quality is lacking. But I think there's nothing wrong with them being in all kinds of stories, even ones not suitable for kids. I also like the uber violence and gore every now and then. Variety is the spice of life, and being able to be in different things aimed at different audiences is a strength for these characters I think.

[Elmo]

I kind of wish we’d get a Kingdom Come movie.. like a 2 or 3 parter

[Frontier]

First, man, I just hate the bulky character designs in these movies. Why does JLU, a 20-year-old series, just look so much better than this? The Flash, especially, looks awful.

They're not as stylized as Bruce Timm's designs but I never understood what's so bad about them. I don't really see bulky so much as more fully-formed physiques for the cast. It's like comparing Ty Templeton to Jason Fabok.

Flash looks fine to me.

Seriously, what the hell is with the tone? Goofy superhero stuff with grotesque violence, sometimes funny but mostly lame (especially when it's "adult") humour.

Not really all that different from the dichotomy of modern comics in my opinion.

Man, the voice acting is just all over the place, isn't it? Some of the characters sound great, some really don't. I love Rainn Wilson but his Lex was particularly iffy.

Honestly I wasn't expecting to enjoy Rainn Wilson as Luthor as much as I did. I haven't seen the film yet but he was great in Death/Reign.

No, you're right I stated that very badly. That's a fair call.

My point is that they should not be attempting to create R-rated Justice League movies in the first place. And I absolutely stand by that. Again, that doesn't mean that R-rated stories can't be told with DC's characters but any sort of traditional superhero story with the likes of Superman and the Flash has no business trying to appeal only to adults. Not because comics and superheroes are only for kids but because built into the combination of these characters and these sorts of stories is something that is genuinely childlike and innocent so trying to mix that with brutal violence or, to a much lesser extent, sex and profanity, results in what I can only describe as an abomination. Every last inch of this movie felt wrong, even if I enjoyed parts of it. The goofy superhero stuff ends up looking extremely childish, while the "adult" content just looks desperate, out of place and particularly ugly. It may have been attempting to be an "adult" movie but it absolutely failed at reaching that goal - and, because of the material it was working with, it never actually had a chance in hell of doing so. The end result is a movie that looks far more juvenile than something explicitly aimed at kids like Teen Titans Go.

What's really befuddling about this movie, though, is that it has a genuinely good grasp on a character like Superman but somehow completely fails to see how incongruous it is to have such a traditional Superman share the screen with graphic depictions of Captain Marvel having his leg ripped off or Batgirl being eaten alive. Hell, just read that sentence again and tell me how any of this makes the slightest amount of sense.

R-rated DC animated films? Awesome. Give me adaptations of stuff like Morrison's Animal Man, Milligan's Shade the Changing Man, King's Mister Miracle or Robinson's Starman. Just don't give me embarrassingly adolescent crap like this. These characters and the audience deserve better.

I honestly can't buy into this idea that traditional stuff for DC's marquee heroes can't be aimed for adults because this line has been delivering films in that vein ever since it started with Superman: Doomsday.

I mean, I don't think young kids can really watch Under the Red Hood or All-Star Superman but I don't think that takes away from those films.

Now...I do feel like sometimes modern DC Animated films have overindulged on the violence and gore but conceptually I don't have anything against them skewing older. They still do all-ages DTV's as well.

[Vakanai]

I mean, I don't think young kids can really watch Under the Red Hood or All-Star Superman but I don't think that takes away from those films.

I don't know about All Star Superman, wasn't the worst bit the Parasite scene? And even that wasn't too bad really.

[Frontier]

I don't know about All Star Superman, wasn't the worst bit the Parasite scene? And even that wasn't too bad really.

I'd have to re-watch it, but overall even setting that scene aside I don't think it's something that was aimed for all ages or for kids.

[achilles]

I don't mind adult storylines, but gore and bloodshed for the sake of shock value isn't what I crave, or an unrelentlessly grim tone either. Especially since those stories don't tend to be as good as those that don't rely on those things. Take New Frontier for example; it's an adult storyline with violence and death, but it never feels cheap, or done for the sake of shock value.

[Frontier]

I don't mind adult storylines, but gore and bloodshed for the sake of shock value isn't what I crave, or an unrelentlessly grim tone either. Especially since those stories don't tend to be as good as those that don't rely on those things. Take New Frontier for example; it's an adult storyline with violence and death, but it never feels cheap, or done for the sake of shock value.

I think it depends on the story and property being adapted.

[Vakanai]

I'd have to re-watch it, but overall even setting that scene aside I don't think it's something that was aimed for all ages or for kids.

No I agree it wasn't aimed for them - but I think they could watch it.

[godisawesome]

I don't mind adult storylines, but gore and bloodshed for the sake of shock value isn't what I crave, or an unrelentlessly grim tone either. Especially since those stories don't tend to be as good as those that don't rely on those things. Take New Frontier for example; it's an adult storyline with violence and death, but it never feels cheap, or done for the sake of shock value.

Yeah, I’d say the tonal problem I have with the continuity they’re rebooting is it often had a bit of a “grindhouse” b-movie feel in its instincts towards action and sometimes characterization, neither quite consistently nailing the kind of measured and focused approach some of its stories wanted to be. Sometimes, this was okay: Deathstroke and Terra getting gritty in Judas Contracf was about right, as was the Suicide Squad film. And it wasn’t always 100% grindhousey, either.

It’s just that it often displayed gratuitous gore and grotesqueries more often than it should have, without really giving them the more creepily sedate or cleverly unveiled treatment. And I really do think it got shown up a bit by stuff like Gotham By Gaslight, Young Justice, etc.; those products often managed to get gore-y, but without losing a more mature approach to its content. The continuity they were using felt like God of War 1-3, rather than God of War (2018).

[Frontier]

No I agree it wasn't aimed for them - but I think they could watch it.

I don't necessarily disagree, I don't think Crisis on Two Earths or Doom would have been inapproachable either, but I still stand by my point.

Even some of the Showcase shorts...you could probably show kids Green Arrow and Shazam but not Jonah Hex or Spectre.

Yeah, I’d say the tonal problem I have with the continuity they’re rebooting is it often had a bit of a “grindhouse” b-movie feel in its instincts towards action and sometimes characterization, neither quite consistently nailing the kind of measured and focused approach some of its stories wanted to be. Sometimes, this was okay: Deathstroke and Terra getting gritty in Judas Contracf was about right, as was the Suicide Squad film. And it wasn’t always 100% grindhousey, either.

It’s just that it often displayed gratuitous gore and grotesqueries more often than it should have, without really giving them the more creepily sedate or cleverly unveiled treatment. And I really do think it got shown up a bit by stuff like Gotham By Gaslight, Young Justice, etc.; those products often managed to get gore-y, but without losing a more mature approach to its content. The continuity they were using felt like God of War 1-3, rather than God of War (2018).

The Superman and WW movies didn't come off grindhouse-y to me. Maybe the Batman movies to some extent but I feel like that was somewhat reflective of the comics at the time. I don't think it was too far off from Gotham By Gaslight.

I feel like it's a fine-line to walk. Like, you mention YJ, and while they were generally very restrained about it, they got a little gratuitous with Halo's violent deaths.

[godisawesome]

I don't necessarily disagree, I don't think Crisis on Two Earths or Doom would have been inapproachable either, but I still stand by my point.

Even some of the Showcase shorts...you could probably show kids Green Arrow and Shazam but not Jonah Hex or Spectre.

The Superman and WW movies didn't come off grindhouse-y to me. Maybe the Batman movies to some extent but I feel like that was somewhat reflective of the comics at the time. I don't think it was too far off from Gotham By Gaslight.

I feel like it's a fine-line to walk. Like, you mention YJ, and while they were generally very restrained about it, they got a little gratuitous with Halo's violent deaths.

Yes, Halo’s deaths are gratuitous, but her story is still mature throughout.

Plus they didn’t do dumb Bane.

Plus they didn’t kill Ra’s Al Ghul in his first movie just ‘cause.

Plus they gave me Tim, Steph, Cass, Harper, Bette, Jason, and kind of tying into our last talk about this *severel pages ago* (sorry for the inconvenience ), them just being there elevates YJ far, far above these films in my estimation. Heck, that’s part of the reason I dig Gotham By Gaslight more; it has the three Robins in *some* form, instead of going with the stupid “marketing” idea that people get confused if you have “redundant character”, and it’s Catwoman annihilated the one from Hush - though that’s partially because Greenwood provides a better Bruce to bounce off of then O’Mara, even though I think O’Mara can do a lot better.

Plus YJ’s Dick, Lex, Vandal Savage is better, and not just in a “because they have a series to develope these guys” sense; there’s single episodes with these characters I would put up against whole movies in the DCNAU and find the movie wanting for characterization.

The DCNAU just kind of felt like it proved my problems with some of the New 52’s attempts at a “doctrine” of sorts; there were limitations and an attempt to target a specific demographic while simultaneously underestimating and at times kind of taking down to the audience. It feels very much like the epitome of Dan Didio’s sometimes mixed signals about who he expected to buy the comics - older audience members with more disposable income that skews older, but still for some reason dumbed down too.

That’s not to say it didn’t produce good stuff, or that the New 52 philosophy couldn’t be good. It’s just to say that the films had clear storytelling limitations because they were trying to fit a common theme and format for much of their existence that didn’t really work as well as standalone and series around it did.

[Lee]

My point is that they should not be attempting to create R-rated Justice League movies in the first place. And I absolutely stand by that. Again, that doesn't mean that R-rated stories can't be told with DC's characters but any sort of traditional superhero story with the likes of Superman and the Flash has no business trying to appeal only to adults. Not because comics and superheroes are only for kids but because built into the combination of these characters and these sorts of stories is something that is genuinely childlike and innocent so trying to mix that with brutal violence or, to a much lesser extent, sex and profanity, results in what I can only describe as an abomination. Every last inch of this movie felt wrong, even if I enjoyed parts of it. The goofy superhero stuff ends up looking extremely childish, while the "adult" content just looks desperate, out of place and particularly ugly. It may have been attempting to be an "adult" movie but it absolutely failed at reaching that goal - and, because of the material it was working with, it never actually had a chance in hell of doing so. The end result is a movie that looks far more juvenile than something explicitly aimed at kids like Teen Titans Go.

What's really befuddling about this movie, though, is that it has a genuinely good grasp on a character like Superman but somehow completely fails to see how incongruous it is to have such a traditional Superman share the screen with graphic depictions of Captain Marvel having his leg ripped off or Batgirl being eaten alive. Hell, just read that sentence again and tell me how any of this makes the slightest amount of sense.

R-rated DC animated films? Awesome. Give me adaptations of stuff like Morrison's Animal Man, Milligan's Shade the Changing Man, King's Mister Miracle or Robinson's Starman. Just don't give me embarrassingly adolescent crap like this. These characters and the audience deserve better.

I completely agree.

No actual film critic would call this a piece of intelligent, well constructed adult entertainment.

It's Saturday morning schlock but with gratuitous gore and stiffer animation. It's sophomoric. Their 1990s kids' shows were far more sophisticated in every regard.

[Frontier]

Yes, Halo’s deaths are gratuitous, but her story is still mature throughout.

Just goes to show that having some gratuitous scenes doesn't disqualify you from being mature .

Plus they didn’t do dumb Bane.

That was disappointing, but admittedly they're not the only pieces of media guilty of it.

Plus they didn’t kill Ra’s Al Ghul in his first movie just ‘cause.

I mean, if they didn't have any plans for him, why keep him around? They were semi-adapting the Morrison run and bumping up Talia to Big Bad status.

Plus they gave me Tim, Steph, Cass, Harper, Bette, Jason, and kind of tying into our last talk about this *severel pages ago* (sorry for the inconvenience ), them just being there elevates YJ far, far above these films in my estimation. Heck, that’s part of the reason I dig Gotham By Gaslight more; it has the three Robins in *some* form, instead of going with the stupid “marketing” idea that people get confused if you have “redundant character”, and it’s Catwoman annihilated the one from Hush - though that’s partially because Greenwood provides a better Bruce to bounce off of then O’Mara, even though I think O’Mara can do a lot better.

Again, I don't think just having them there automatically makes YJ better if they really didn't end up doing anything with them. Would acknowledging the other Robins have been nice in the movies? Yeah, but that doesn't mean it would have led to anything substantial. Like having the three Robins in Gotham by Gaslight was fun but was pretty much just an Easter Egg (albeit a really cool one).

I think Jennifer Carpenter gave a stronger performance then Jennifer Morrison did as Selina (although I think Morrison was still solid) but I felt Catwoman in Hush was less of a damsel in distress and more of an equal partner with Bruce then Selina in Gotham by Gaslight even if I loved everything else about Selina in that movie. Batman wouldn't have beaten Hush without Catwoman but she only told him where Jack the Ripper was in Gotham by Gaslight. Plus she got to take out Scarecrow and Ivy.

Greenwood is a better and more consistent Batman VA then O'Mara. I think O'Mara was solid at times but it really depended on the movie. But I've always appreciated O'Mara's commitment to the role.

Plus YJ’s Dick, Lex, Vandal Savage is better, and not just in a “because they have a series to develope these guys” sense; there’s single episodes with these characters I would put up against whole movies in the DCNAU and find the movie wanting for characterization.

I would put DCNAU!Lex equal to YJ Lex but they're too very different interpretations of the character. Movie!Lex is much more of an outward Supervillain Lex and more honest about his obsession with Superman but he also has a small potential for heroism when it suits him.

I feel like the context and roles for these characters end up being so different that it's not worth comparing the two. Like, sure they didn't do much with Savage in the movies, but they actually had Scandal instead of an OC who might be Scandal complete with Knockout. Plus they had Reverse-Flash.

I could point out characters that the movies have ended up doing much more with then the cartoon has, but then we would be here all day. I don't think it needs to be an either/or thing.

[mrumsey]

Whether they dislike him or not, I don't know if him being the only JL founder to go out like a punk in a flashback cameo with no dialogue wasn't deliberate.

Well, when you have the person who is credited with the story saying this, it's hard not to say that it wasn't deliberate.

Screenshot_20200511-074902.jpg

[liwanag]

Well, when you have the person who is credited with the story saying this, it's hard not to say that it wasn't deliberate.

Screenshot_20200511-074902.jpg

i sure hope i don't get more stories from that person.