DC Animated Original Movies Discussion

[Ilan Preskovsky]

Just to reiterate my point, I have zero problem with stories about these superheroes being aimed at adults. My problem is that this sort of gratuitous violence, desperate edginess, and cheap shocks is NOT adult. They never will be and they'll never fit these kinds of characters and stories. But genuinely sophisticated stories aimed at adults (though usually at least appropriate for younger readers)? Hell, yeah. In fact. I'd wager that though a few of the great superhero stories of the past thirty years are aimed squarely at children, most aren't. A few of them aren't even appropriate for children but I'm reasonably sure none of them involve characters like Superman or the Flash.

To put it another way, you want great, adult superhero stories in that they're mature and often thematically complex, check out stuff like Superman: Secret Identity, All-Star Superman, Starman, PAD's Supergirl, The Return of Barry Allen, Superman: Red Son, or Tom King's Mister Miracle. Or even venture out to DC's imprints with stuff like Shade the Changing Man, Top 10, or Morrison's Animal Man. Some of these have "adult content" and often for very, very good reason but that isn't what makes them adult.

JLD: Apokalips War has fun moments but it's not actually adult by any stretch of the imagination. And, honestly, it's at its least adult when it's at its most grotesque.

And, just in terms of the animation, I mean it's not atrocious overall but there's a reason why Bruce Timm specifically decided to give the Batman Animated Series a more minimalist look in terms of character designs. There's a sleekness and expressiveness to that art style that is missing in this sub-anime-inspired animation. Plus, the fact that The Flash has exactly the same bulky body type (and face, for that matter) as Superman really rubs me the wrong way. And, to be sure, I really do like artists like Jason Fabok, Gary Frank or Ivan Reis in terms of comic book art but in animation, unless you have plenty of time and a huge budget, less is generally more.

[Doctor Know]

I posted this in another thread about Apkolips War.


Vic/Cyborg was an unwitting Trojan Horse/Double Agent for Darkseid. Relaying the 2 Leagues and the Titan’s plan of attack to big, bad Darkseid himself. Without that fore-knowledge, Supes’ plan may have worked, with a few casualties on the heroes side. Outside of knowing the League’s plans, the Paradooms were a huge, and unforeseen obstacle. Personally, I’d have rather the League suffered losses to the Furies instead. The movie mentions them but we don’t see them.


Imagine the two Leagues and the Titans crossing swords with Lashina (electric steel whips), Stompa (female Inhuman Gorgon/X-Men Juggernaut), Mad Harriet (Harley Queen but a berserker), Bernadeth (pyrokinetic), Gillotina (piercing hands and blades), Bloody Mary (New God vampire) and Amazing Grace (Hypnotic gaze and illusion). The Fury Knockout was already used in SS Hell to Pay and left hospitalized.


The bulk of the over-top violence and gore came from the Paradooms. Combining two things people hate. Cannon fodder enemies (Chitarui, Parademons, Skrulls, robotic drones of any stripe) and Doomsday. DC has over-saturated their media with him. He shows up in some shape or form at least once a year since 2010. Take the Paradooms killing of the League members, Titans and Squad members out, and you have a mostly PG-13 movie. I'm not against the ultra-violence, but I think it should've been done with the Furies as detailed above. Because the Furies are characters with a variety of abilities and skills to compete against our heroes.


Honestly, I think JLD Apokolips War should've been two movies or a 3 hour affair. Like Death of Superman/Reign of the Supermen and Dark Knight Returns were 3 hours.

[Frontier]

Well, when you have the person who is credited with the story saying this, it's hard not to say that it wasn't deliberate.

Attachment 96537

Oof. That sucks .

Just to reiterate my point, I have zero problem with stories about these superheroes being aimed at adults. My problem is that this sort of gratuitous violence, desperate edginess, and cheap shocks is NOT adult. They never will be and they'll never fit these kinds of characters and stories. But genuinely sophisticated stories aimed at adults (though usually at least appropriate for younger readers)? Hell, yeah. In fact. I'd wager that though a few of the great superhero stories of the past thirty years are aimed squarely at children, most aren't. A few of them aren't even appropriate for children but I'm reasonably sure none of them involve characters like Superman or the Flash.

Well, depending on your definition of "young readers," Unbound, Death/Reign, or even The Elite would probably be something people in their teens can watch.

Wonder Woman's original solo film wasn't age-appropriate when you look at how they handled Steve Trevor, and I think Diana decapitated Ares or a monster.

I was in my late teens when I watched Under the Red Hood.

JLD: Apokalips War has fun moments but it's not actually adult by any stretch of the imagination. And, honestly, it's at its least adult when it's at its most grotesque.

I think there are many different definitions of "adult." But I guess adult-oriented and whether the content is actually handled maturely is a whole other can of worms.

And, just in terms of the animation, I mean it's not atrocious overall but there's a reason why Bruce Timm specifically decided to give the Batman Animated Series a more minimalist look in terms of character designs. There's a sleekness and expressiveness to that art style that is missing in this sub-anime-inspired animation. Plus, the fact that The Flash has exactly the same bulky body type (and face, for that matter) as Superman really rubs me the wrong way. And, to be sure, I really do like artists like Jason Fabok, Gary Frank or Ivan Reis in terms of comic book art but in animation, unless you have plenty of time and a huge budget, less is generally more.

I mean, the designs look pretty crisp and clean to me, but I don't think different continuities/movies need to ape the DCAU aesthetic. If you have more of a budget I'd think you'd expect more detailed and intricate designs to some extent, especially more geared toward the kind of content you're going to feature. And this extends even beyond the in-continuity line of movies.

DCAU Flash's body type, for instance, wasn't all that different from the rest of the Justice League. I don't think Barry and Clark have the same face either but that's probably more a personal perspective thing.

[Lee]

I mean, the designs look pretty crisp and clean to me, but I don't think different continuities/movies need to ape the DCAU aesthetic. If you have more of a budget I'd think you'd expect more detailed and intricate designs to some extent, especially more geared toward the kind of content you're going to feature.

The problem is that they don't move. The more complex the character designs, the less movement. They don't have the budget to do both.

[Vakanai]

Just to reiterate my point, I have zero problem with stories about these superheroes being aimed at adults. My problem is that this sort of gratuitous violence, desperate edginess, and cheap shocks is NOT adult. They never will be and they'll never fit these kinds of characters and stories. But genuinely sophisticated stories aimed at adults (though usually at least appropriate for younger readers)? Hell, yeah. In fact. I'd wager that though a few of the great superhero stories of the past thirty years are aimed squarely at children, most aren't. A few of them aren't even appropriate for children but I'm reasonably sure none of them involve characters like Superman or the Flash.

While I agree that gratuitous violence, desperate edginess, and cheap shocks are not adult, I disagree that such never fits these kinds of characters or stories - I believe that literally everything can and does fit these characters and stories in moderation. Yes there should be more genuinely adult stories, more sophisticated stories, more refined stories, more stories kids should be able to watch, and more generally better stories in general - but there should also be space for mindless schlock and cheap gore too. There's an audience for it, a small segment that demands and likes it, so why not? It should never be the bulk of the stories or what the line is known for, which is where these movies have gone wrong, but it should still exist in some small capacity. That these characters can exist and play in all kinds of stories for all kinds of audiences and ages I think is a good thing. We don't have to like all of it, but I think that kind of flexibility is good for long term health and success. This line just has the proportions is wrong.

[Frontier]

The problem is that they don't move. The more complex the character designs, the less movement. They don't have the budget to do both.

I think the movement in the movies is generally fine though. Sometimes it depends on the studio they outsource too as well since Reign of the Supermen and Bloodlines looked a lot better then Hush.

[Lee]

I think the movement in the movies is generally fine though. Sometimes it depends on the studio they outsource too as well since Reign of the Supermen and Bloodlines looked a lot better then Hush.

I can't comment on all of them, but Apokolips War looked bad. Lots of characters standing perfectly still with their arms by their side while another character's mouth moved.

[stargazer01]

Still haven't seen it, but keep hearing good things in other forums.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/jus..._apokolips_war

[Ilan Preskovsky]

While I agree that gratuitous violence, desperate edginess, and cheap shocks are not adult, I disagree that such never fits these kinds of characters or stories - I believe that literally everything can and does fit these characters and stories in moderation. Yes there should be more genuinely adult stories, more sophisticated stories, more refined stories, more stories kids should be able to watch, and more generally better stories in general - but there should also be space for mindless schlock and cheap gore too. There's an audience for it, a small segment that demands and likes it, so why not? It should never be the bulk of the stories or what the line is known for, which is where these movies have gone wrong, but it should still exist in some small capacity. That these characters can exist and play in all kinds of stories for all kinds of audiences and ages I think is a good thing. We don't have to like all of it, but I think that kind of flexibility is good for long term health and success. This line just has the proportions is wrong.

Ya know, it's funny. I should be totally agreeing with you. One of the things I love about the superhero genre is how flexible it is. I certainly don't have a problem with "grindhouse"-like takes on superheroes - though, it certainly needs a much greater sense of humour about itself than this movie showed. And yet, I have never, in all my years reading superhero comics, come across a hard-R (or even an "edgy" PG13) version of characters like Superman, Flash or Captain Marvel that works. And, honestly, I just can't imagine such a thing ever working. Fidelity to who these characters basically are is always the most important element in any story featuring them but character also defines tone and the content of the story. Superman, by the very nature of who he is, simply does not and cannot work in the context of a story that makes liberal use of cheap gore and shock tactics. And I have never seen any evidence to suggest the contrary.

Now, even if I generally strongly dislike "schlock and cheap gore" driven superhero stories because they're usually just unbearably lame, I'm not above enjoying such a thing in theory. The thing, though, is that it actually takes a lot more skill to make good, quality trash than one would think and the right sort of character is absolutely fundamental to such a thing. There are certainly DC (and Marvel) characters that would lend themselves to trashy b-grade filth but aside for maybe - MAYBE - Batman, none of those characters can be found in the classic line ups of the Justice League or Teen Titans. Lobo? Sure. Harley Quinn? Actually, yeah. Most of DC's superheroes just don't work in this context, though. And I challenge you find any examples to the contrary. Genuinely. I really don't believe there are but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

[Vakanai]

Ya know, it's funny. I should be totally agreeing with you. One of the things I love about the superhero genre is how flexible it is. I certainly don't have a problem with "grindhouse"-like takes on superheroes - though, it certainly needs a much greater sense of humour about itself than this movie showed. And yet, I have never, in all my years reading superhero comics, come across a hard-R (or even an "edgy" PG13) version of characters like Superman, Flash or Captain Marvel that works. And, honestly, I just can't imagine such a thing ever working. Fidelity to who these characters basically are is always the most important element in any story featuring them but character also defines tone and the content of the story. Superman, by the very nature of who he is, simply does not and cannot work in the context of a story that makes liberal use of cheap gore and shock tactics. And I have never seen any evidence to suggest the contrary.

Now, even if I generally strongly dislike "schlock and cheap gore" driven superhero stories because they're usually just unbearably lame, I'm not above enjoying such a thing in theory. The thing, though, is that it actually takes a lot more skill to make good, quality trash than one would think and the right sort of character is absolutely fundamental to such a thing. There are certainly DC (and Marvel) characters that would lend themselves to trashy b-grade filth but aside for maybe - MAYBE - Batman, none of those characters can be found in the classic line ups of the Justice League or Teen Titans. Lobo? Sure. Harley Quinn? Actually, yeah. Most of DC's superheroes just don't work in this context, though. And I challenge you find any examples to the contrary. Genuinely. I really don't believe there are but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

I disagree - I don't think character should dictate what kind of stories work and don't work with them. As long as the character is spot on, any story works. Superman should never be dark, but he cab work in dark stories, he should never be ultra violent, but he works in ultra violent stories. I think he can even work better in some of those stories - he's the light in the darkness, the hope in a world that has lost it.

However I can't provide any examples for you - not because those examples don't exist, but because I haven't been reading comics for that long (since like maybe 2014-ish) and don't get that many a year. I can't name you one example of Superman in such a story yet period, good or bad, outside these films. One might exist, it might not, I'm too inexperienced in my Superman reading to know - never mind the fact even if I did have one whether you would agree with me or not on it being good is another matter. But assuming one doesn't exist yet, doesn't mean it can't or won't exist later. It certainly doesn't hurt for them to try every once in an odd while. At least that's kind of my hope anyways, I do the rare occasion where I love a good bit of well done schlock (a Superman and Ash vs the Evil Dead crossover could be crazy good, random thought).

[Samm]

i sure hope i don't get more stories from that person.

If it means I get more John Stewart then hopefully they get even more to write for DC.

[Frontier]

I can't comment on all of them, but Apokolips War looked bad. Lots of characters standing perfectly still with their arms by their side while another character's mouth moved.

I think that's kind of common, sometimes even for non-Bourassas films. I haven't seen the film but I would assume it probably looks better when characters are actually in motion.

Ya know, it's funny. I should be totally agreeing with you. One of the things I love about the superhero genre is how flexible it is. I certainly don't have a problem with "grindhouse"-like takes on superheroes - though, it certainly needs a much greater sense of humour about itself than this movie showed. And yet, I have never, in all my years reading superhero comics, come across a hard-R (or even an "edgy" PG13) version of characters like Superman, Flash or Captain Marvel that works. And, honestly, I just can't imagine such a thing ever working. Fidelity to who these characters basically are is always the most important element in any story featuring them but character also defines tone and the content of the story. Superman, by the very nature of who he is, simply does not and cannot work in the context of a story that makes liberal use of cheap gore and shock tactics. And I have never seen any evidence to suggest the contrary.

Now, even if I generally strongly dislike "schlock and cheap gore" driven superhero stories because they're usually just unbearably lame, I'm not above enjoying such a thing in theory. The thing, though, is that it actually takes a lot more skill to make good, quality trash than one would think and the right sort of character is absolutely fundamental to such a thing. There are certainly DC (and Marvel) characters that would lend themselves to trashy b-grade filth but aside for maybe - MAYBE - Batman, none of those characters can be found in the classic line ups of the Justice League or Teen Titans. Lobo? Sure. Harley Quinn? Actually, yeah. Most of DC's superheroes just don't work in this context, though. And I challenge you find any examples to the contrary. Genuinely. I really don't believe there are but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

For me, as long the core of the character is intact, it doesn't really matter to me what tone or age bracket they aim the project for. I feel like these characters are versatile enough to fit as they are in whatever story it needs to be told whether it be uplifting, dark, horrific, etc. while still remaining in-character.

If it means I get more John Stewart then hopefully they get even more to write for DC.

She's a Kyle fan. I'm not sure what that means for John...

[Lee]

I disagree - I don't think character should dictate what kind of stories work and don't work with them. As long as the character is spot on, any story works. Superman should never be dark, but he cab work in dark stories, he should never be ultra violent, but he works in ultra violent stories. I think he can even work better in some of those stories - he's the light in the darkness, the hope in a world that has lost it.

I disagree. Muppet Treasure Island works. Muppet Lolita would not work. Such a story and subject matter cannot be carried by Kermit the Frog.

I think that's kind of common, sometimes even for non-Bourassas films. I haven't seen the film but I would assume it probably looks better when characters are actually in motion.

It reminded me of the roughest parts of Young Justice season 3. The budget clearly isn't there.

[Vakanai]

I disagree. Muppet Treasure Island works. Muppet Lolita would not work. Such a story and subject matter cannot be carried by Kermit the Frog.

Not exactly great examples - the Muppets can't be taken seriously outside of comedies because they're floppy funny looking puppets, human or humanoid looking characters can work in every kind of stories that work for human and human-like characters. Superman isn't a puppet frog.

[Lee]

Not exactly great examples - the Muppets can't be taken seriously outside of comedies because they're floppy funny looking puppets, human or humanoid looking characters can work in every kind of stories that work for human and human-like characters. Superman isn't a puppet frog.

You said you don't think character should dictate what kind of stories work and don't work with them. But now you're saying there's something innate about Kermit the Frog as a character that dictates what kind of stories work and don't work with him.

Superman is a man from outer space who dresses in a primary coloured unitard and cape, he goes around saving the day by performing impossible feats like flying with no means of propulsion, his primary form of disguise is a pair of glasses, one of his greatest enemies is a magical imp who plays tricks on him, he has a pet dog with the same amazing powers who also wears a little cape, he has a friend in the distant future named Matter Eater Lad, with the ability to eat all matter. To many people, Superman is very much a puppet frog of a character.