Tim Seeley gives DC ALL ACCESS interview about GRAYSON

[OWL45]

It's DC's job to create series that attract interest and sales. If they thought "y'know, let's use a less popular character for thesis and told this story with Tim? 1) Yoago u'd have a series with a protagonist that didn't suit the genre. Tim is many things, but he isn't a swashbuckler. And 2) You'd have a lower-selling book.

Neither are desireable to DC.

I agree with you. Dick fits the genre better. DC was smart in regards to the horse they chose to run this particular race. Also some people say Jason. He has skills but Jason is most mentally unstable of the Robins.Typically in the spy genre Agencies shy away from that. They go for idealistic people who have a strong desire to serve a larger cause who will makes sacrifices for the greater good. Those individuals also have to be mentally flexilble but not able to be warped due to how long they have to assume various covers etc and not lose sight of the mission. That's more Grayson in my opinion.

[M L A]

Exactly.

Combine the fact that there are too many Robins (and side-kicks) and you see that the DC creative teams are stuck NOT knowing where to go with Nightwing.

DC should have taken a less popular character (Red Robin) to use for the is "spy game" story arc but decided to use Dick so as to pander to more interest and better sales. Nightwing has too many story arcs and "roots" establishing his character and place in the DC Universe that Red Robin lacks.

Did I mention that Dicks identity exposure also blows massive holes in the continuation of Batmans secret identity?
You cannot distance Dick from Bruce in the same way as distancing Tim Drake and with the exposure of Dick as Nightwing...only a fool wound NOT trace that back to Bruce Wayne.

Not going to argue with the first point. In fact I agree with it. They pretty much took away (Titan history, his friends, Damian, etc) what made him different from Bruce and the other Robins. All that was left was this guy that was Robin (more of an internship?? ? ok), went off Roy and Starfire for a while, became Batman, and went back to Nightwing. That hurt him a lot. What will hurt him even more is shoving him into the whole spy thing and NOT have it have ANY impact on him when he goes back to being Nightwing. E.g., if he makes friends there and then they all go off into limbo when he stops being a spy.

Second, DC's job is to make money, so yeah they're going to use a more popular guy for what they consider a risky move. Nightwing had pretty damn good sales (like 30k+ more often than not I think) despite editorial kicking Higgins in the balls. And Red Robin has his place in the Teen Titans, as a founding member in the New 52. Yeah the book sucked terribly, but I doubt DC is going to get rid of one of their more popular members, especially when they're starting it back at #1 soon.

And yeah. I don't get that either. But suspension of disbelief and whatnot. They could just say that Dick was the link between Bruce and Batman. Like Dick convinced Bruce to start Batman Inc or to start funding Batman, and Batman said he couldn't be Robin unless he did just that.

[K. Jones]

I agree with you. Dick fits the genre better. DC was smart in regards to the horse they chose to run this particular race. Also some people say Jason. He has skills but Jason is most mentally unstable of the Robins.Typically in the spy genre Agencies shy away from that. They go for idealistic people who have a strong desire to serve a larger cause who will makes sacrifices for the greater good. Those individuals also have to be mentally flexilble but not able to be warped due to how long they have to assume various covers etc and not lose sight of the mission. That's more Grayson in my opinion.

True. Very true. Even Fleming's James Bond was more or less centered. Had his vices to deal with the stress, to be sure ... but was an idealistic, educated but hardly rich guy who'd started in various forms of service before being recruited into the espionage game based on merits and strengths. He's not even serially unattached like movie Bond. He dated Tiffany Case the diamond smuggler for like a year after Diamonds, she was living with him in London. Dick started working class, lucked into an expensive education, followed that up with service, and when he had the run of Wayne Enterprises, his moves were also assisting servicemen ... ALL while juggling a night job as a daredevil vigilante super-hero. I wonder what he studied at Hudson University ... criminal justice, perhaps?

Jason Todd is more like ... well, I was going to say Donovan "Red" Grant, but I'm not sure that's accurate. Grant was cruel. Capable of blending into society, acting, fooling people, but he had some real psycho tendencies. Perfect man to be a master assassin for SMERSH, yes. But inevitably, that means he's a follower. Jason's more in the mold of a Cowboy/Western hero. He started out a bit more Charlie Bronson Death Wish, just gunning for punks, but he's sort of tempered it into a "if it's kill or be killed, I'll kill" gunslinger role.

[OWL45]

True. Very true. Even Fleming's James Bond wasliterallyore or less centered. Had his vices to deal with the stress, to be sure ... but was an idealistic, educated but hardly rich guy who'd started in various forms of service before being recruited into the espionage game based on merits and strengths. He's not even serially unattached like movie Bond. He dated Tiffany Case the diamond smuggler for like a year after Diamonds, she was living with him in London. Dick started working class, lucked into an expensive education, followed that up with service, and when he had the run of Wayne Enterprises, his moves were also assisting servicemen ... ALL while juggling a night job as a daredevil vigilante super-hero. I wonder what he studied at Hudson University ... criminal justice, perhaps?

Jason Todd is more like ... well, I was going to say Donovan "Red" Grant, but I'm not sure that's accurate. Grant was cruel. Capable of blending into society, acting, fooling people, but he had some real psycho tendencies. Perfect man to be a master assassin for SMERSH, yes. But inevitably, that means he's a follower. Jason's more in the mold of a Cowboy/Western hero. He started out a bit more Charlie Bronson Death Wish, just gunning for punks, but he's sort of tempered it into a "if it's kill or be killed, I'll kill" gunslinger role.

Great examples of what I was trying to get at. Jason is an Assassin literally because he was trained as one and also did it professionally but just because your an assassin it doesn't necessarily mean you would make a good spy. When I think of a spy who carries as gun similar to what they are going to have Dick doing I think of Ethan Hunt and Mission Impossible style characters. Just to give an example. Their is a difference.

[Badou]

Dick's creator created him to be in Bruce's "shadow".

Not really. They created him to give kids who the comics were aimed at a point of view character. Someone to identify with more. I don't think the "shadow" thing came into play until Dick aged from a kid to a teen/young adult.

The actual reason Dick is trapped in Bruce's shadow is that DC doesn't see the value in investing top of the line creators on a Dick/Nightwing book when they can just be placed on another Batman book instead. Which I completely understand because it is easier to go with a proven seller than one that might not sell as well.

[Dzetoun]

Second, DC's job is to make money, so yeah they're going to use a more popular guy for what they consider a risky move. Nightwing had pretty damn good sales (like 30k+ more often than not I think) despite editorial kicking Higgins in the balls. And Red Robin has his place in the Teen Titans, as a founding member in the New 52. Yeah the book sucked terribly, but I doubt DC is going to get rid of one of their more popular members, especially when they're starting it back at #1 soon.

True. Very true. Even Fleming's James Bond was more or less centered. Had his vices to deal with the stress, to be sure ... but was an idealistic, educated but hardly rich guy who'd started in various forms of service before being recruited into the espionage game based on merits and strengths. He's not even serially unattached like movie Bond. He dated Tiffany Case the diamond smuggler for like a year after Diamonds, she was living with him in London. Dick started working class, lucked into an expensive education, followed that up with service, and when he had the run of Wayne Enterprises, his moves were also assisting servicemen ... ALL while juggling a night job as a daredevil vigilante super-hero. I wonder what he studied at Hudson University ... criminal justice, perhaps?

Jason Todd is more like ... well, I was going to say Donovan "Red" Grant, but I'm not sure that's accurate. Grant was cruel. Capable of blending into society, acting, fooling people, but he had some real psycho tendencies. Perfect man to be a master assassin for SMERSH, yes. But inevitably, that means he's a follower. Jason's more in the mold of a Cowboy/Western hero. He started out a bit more Charlie Bronson Death Wish, just gunning for punks, but he's sort of tempered it into a "if it's kill or be killed, I'll kill" gunslinger role.

Great examples of what I was trying to get at. Jason is an Assassin literally because he was trained as one and also did it professionally but just because your an assassin it doesn't necessarily mean you would make a good spy. When I think of a spy who carries as gun similar to what they are going to have Dick doing I think of Ethan Hunt and Mission Impossible style characters. Just to give an example. Their is a difference.

All true, but I think missing a crucial point that makes Dick a much better pick than either Tim or Jason. Tim is a better pick for a spy in the John LeCarre mode, that is a spy that primarily engages in mental combat with rare bursts of physical action. Jason is a better pick for a spy in the Jason Bourne mode, that is a spy who is primarily an assassin and living weapon. Mr. Clark from the Tom Clancy novels is also someone along those lines. But the model they seem to be going with here is James Bond, and Bond is intelligent, he is willing to be lethal, but most of all he is charisma and presence and, well, sex. Leaving aside the lethal part (let's not start that again right now) who does that describe? Tim? No, not at all. Jason? He certainly has charisma of a kind, but irresistible in the manner of Bond he is not. Bruce, even? No, not really. Batman has presence, but is not about charm or sex. Bruce Wayne is perhaps about both, but in a terribly shallow way. Dick Grayson? The words used so far by the creators to describe him are sexy, confident, happy, alive, seductive, and irresistible. All words that would also apply to Bond, at least in most of his popular incarnations. If you were looking for someone in Gotham to fill that kind of spy role, honestly who else could you pick but Dick Grayson?

[Agent 37]

All true, but I think missing a crucial point that makes Dick a much better pick than either Tim or Jason. Tim is a better pick for a spy in the John LeCarre mode, that is a spy that primarily engages in mental combat with rare bursts of physical action. Jason is a better pick for a spy in the Jason Bourne mode, that is a spy who is primarily an assassin and living weapon. Mr. Clark from the Tom Clancy novels is also someone along those lines. But the model they seem to be going with here is James Bond, and Bond is intelligent, he is willing to be lethal, but most of all he is charisma and presence and, well, sex. Leaving aside the lethal part (let's not start that again right now) who does that describe? Tim? No, not at all. Jason? He certainly has charisma of a kind, but irresistible in the manner of Bond he is not. Bruce, even? No, not really. Batman has presence, but is not about charm or sex. Bruce Wayne is perhaps about both, but in a terribly shallow way. Dick Grayson? The words used so far by the creators to describe him are sexy, confident, happy, alive, seductive, and irresistible. All words that would also apply to Bond, at least in most of his popular incarnations. If you were looking for someone in Gotham to fill that kind of spy role, honestly who else could you pick but Dick Grayson?

Good points made here.

IMO the biggest mistake made in the new52 was the 5 year timeline. I think dc basically shot themselves in the foot with that one. 4 Robins in 5 years supposedly? That's why Nightwing has no back history with Titans, Tim started the titans yadda yadda yadda. They forced their own hand into leaving Dick with nowhere to go.

I don't know (and don't know if we ever will know) what the original plan was for Dick post forever evil, but I feel (hope) that this is a very good way to deal with the mess made by dc.

As for all of the character traits listed for why Dick is the best choice to be Bruce's spy, (and the type of spy he most closely relates to) the one overlooked is that Batman trusts him more than anyone. Yes he has the looks, charisma, intelligence, and athletic skills. But he also has an incorruptible will and desire to help people no matter the personal cost. He is the only man Batman knows who can enter into this world,do the job, and come out the other side.

Tim couldn't, and Jason couldn't. Dick can, and Dick will.

Even if this character change was because DC painted themselves into a corner, Dick is head and shoulders above the other choices, for me it's not even close!

Bruce fears spyral. The whole Spyral as a dangerous threat hasn't been played out yet, but once the series starts I'm very hopeful that Spyral is shown as a dangerous threat to everyone, and Bruce's fear of their reach is legitimate. Bruce's fear and how unsure he is of them, and his choice for Dick to infiltrate their ranks has maybe not been as fleshed out as one would hope yet, but when the series starts gaining steam, Dick will rise to the occasion and to the top ranks of the dc heroes!

I've finished this glass of koolaid, now can I have another?

[Kid A]

Good points made here.

IMO the biggest mistake made in the new52 was the 5 year timeline. I think dc basically shot themselves in the foot with that one. 4 Robins in 5 years supposedly? That's why Nightwing has no back history with Titans, Tim started the titans yadda yadda yadda. They forced their own hand into leaving Dick with nowhere to go.

Nah, no one really pays attention to the 5 year timeline. It hasn't really crippled stories for Batman, Superman, Justice League, etc. Nightwing's problem is the same problem he had when the first series was launched long before the New 52; editors insist on eschewing his connections to the Titans and making him a Batman-lite character.

[Just Is]

Not really. They created him to give kids who the comics were aimed at a point of view character. Someone to identify with more. I don't think the "shadow" thing came into play until Dick aged from a kid to a teen/young adult.

The actual reason Dick is trapped in Bruce's shadow is that DC doesn't see the value in investing top of the line creators on a Dick/Nightwing book when they can just be placed on another Batman book instead. Which I completely understand because it is easier to go with a proven seller than one that might not sell as well.

I'd actually argue against this.

The high profile Dick becomes, the older it makes Bruce look (by proxy) which is what would be my guess to keeping Dick in Bruce's shadow. And DC doesn't need to invest top line creators on a Dick book because Dick's proven to sell without the need for it and, because of where they view Dick, there is even less incentive.

Good points made here.

IMO the biggest mistake made in the new52 was the 5 year timeline. I think dc basically shot themselves in the foot with that one. 4 Robins in 5 years supposedly? That's why Nightwing has no back history with Titans, Tim started the titans yadda yadda yadda. They forced their own hand into leaving Dick with nowhere to go.

I don't know (and don't know if we ever will know) what the original plan was for Dick post forever evil, but I feel (hope) that this is a very good way to deal with the mess made by dc.

As for all of the character traits listed for why Dick is the best choice to be Bruce's spy, (and the type of spy he most closely relates to) the one overlooked is that Batman trusts him more than anyone. Yes he has the looks, charisma, intelligence, and athletic skills. But he also has an incorruptible will and desire to help people no matter the personal cost. He is the only man Batman knows who can enter into this world,do the job, and come out the other side.

Tim couldn't, and Jason couldn't. Dick can, and Dick will.

Even if this character change was because DC painted themselves into a corner, Dick is head and shoulders above the other choices, for me it's not even close!

Bruce fears spyral. The whole Spyral as a dangerous threat hasn't been played out yet, but once the series starts I'm very hopeful that Spyral is shown as a dangerous threat to everyone, and Bruce's fear of their reach is legitimate. Bruce's fear and how unsure he is of them, and his choice for Dick to infiltrate their ranks has maybe not been as fleshed out as one would hope yet, but when the series starts gaining steam, Dick will rise to the occasion and to the top ranks of the dc heroes!

I've finished this glass of koolaid, now can I have another?

I think there's been enough revealed to point towards the answer for that question already. With it essentially boiling down to "No More Dick". The only question was for how long.

[Rakiduam]

Nah, no one really pays attention to the 5 year timeline. It hasn't really crippled stories for Batman, Superman, Justice League, etc. Nightwing's problem is the same problem he had when the first series was launched long before the New 52; editors insist on eschewing his connections to the Titans and making him a Batman-lite character.

One way or the other Dick's problem is editorial so it doesn't look very promising. We may have to wait for a total replacement before Dick has a decent place in the DC universe again.

Dick is never going to be out of Batman's shadow while his whole life is a mission for Batman, and I don't have any hope of the present editors can have a better idea in the future

[Kid A]

One way or the other Dick's problem is editorial so it doesn't look very promising. We may have to wait for a total replacement before Dick has a decent place in the DC universe again.

Dick is never going to be out of Batman's shadow while his whole life is a mission for Batman, and I don't have any hope of the present editors can have a better idea in the future

It doesn't really matter if Batman is the one requesting the mission, ultimately he'll be up and away from doing Batman-lite adventures, and the spy trappings will finally give him a unique spin from al that.

[Rakiduam]

It doesn't really matter if Batman is the one requesting the mission, ultimately he'll be up and away from doing Batman-lite adventures, and the spy trappings will finally give him a unique spin from al that.

This is not a unique spin, it has been done some many times before that Dick has been comparated to a bunch of different characters, and you can get more Batman-lite than being in Batman mission, in a world that was created for Batman with Batman's characters, and not even the cool ones because those stay with Batman.

What was great of Nightwing was that it had nothing to do with Batman. The new Teen Titans was completely new world for old characters. This is so plain that it didn't need a new identity, like everything in DC is adapting old concepts, in this case Batman's concepts.

[Kid A]

This is not a unique spin, it has been done some many times before that Dick has been comparated to a bunch of different characters, and you can get more Batman-lite than being in Batman mission, in a world that was created for Batman with Batman's characters, and not even the cool ones because those stay with Batman.

I'm not following you here. Dick was called Batman-lite because he was basically acting like Batman, just wearing a different costume. Becoming a spy takes him far out of that league. That Batman happens to be the macguffin that gets him into the spy agency in the first place doesn't make him Batman-lite, let alone more Batman-lite than the first 29 issues of New 52 Nightwing.

What was great of Nightwing was that it had nothing to do with Batman. The new Teen Titans was completely new world for old characters. This is so plain that it didn't need a new identity, like everything in DC is adapting old concepts, in this case Batman's concepts.

But you're crying over spoiled milk at this point. DC isn't going to bring back the old Teen Titans back, so I'm just glad they found something that has potential to work in a different way.

And frankly, there's still a problem with Dick's characters if he needs the Titans and can't stand on his own.

[Rakiduam]

No, don't want the NTT back, that is lost, the editorial kill it. But I don't want a Batman's story with Dick in Bruce's place. You don't think that is Batman-lite?

Chicago had the opportunity of being something different, is not the character that is limited is the creative in the DC that see their own universe as limited. They have multiversity and the best they can come up with is make Dick Batman's agent again

[Kid A]

Batman is what sets this premise in motion, but that's pretty much it.