5 Elements of the Pre-New 52 DC Universe We Really, Really Miss

[Buried Alien]

It's so stupid that they've had three different Captain Americas in the span of a few years.

It rivals what DC did with the Flash between 2006-2009 going Wally-Bart-Wally-Barry.

It was fun in the mid-1990s when DC went Bruce-Jean Paul-Bruce-Dick-Bruce with Batman from 1994-1995.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[LoneNecromancer]

It rivals what DC did with the Flash between 2006-2009 going Wally-Bart-Wally-Barry.

It was fun in the mid-1990s when DC went Bruce-Jean Paul-Bruce-Dick-Bruce with Batman from 1994-1995.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Meh, Prodigal didn't really count, it was like a few month crossover, and I always had the impression it was just there to appease people annoyed by why Bruce wouldn't leave Dick the mantle to take over if something happened to him.

The Wally-Bart-Wally-Barry thing was dumb, though.

[Flash Gordon]

Plus it's forced since wouldn't Bucky just pick up the shield again, if Steve turned into Clint Eastwood randomly? Is there REALLY a need for a sudden replacement? The Cap title can't just tell the story of Clint Eastwood for a few issues until the movie comes out and he's back in tights?

This whole "everyone needs a legacy" thing is bonkers, to me. Green Lantern can have it since it's a intergalactic society. Superman? Not a legacy hero.

[SiegePerilous02]

The Titans entry gets some mixed reactions from me. Yeah, losing that history has really hurt a lot of the characters, especially Dick and Cyborg. And no lineup has ever managed to live up to that period. But trying to recapture that nostalgia hasn't lead to anything great either. Maybe get the iconic Titans group (the O5 + Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy and Terra) together again as a base, but also add new characters (both heroes and villains) and concepts for them to go up against. Having one of the current crop of talented new writers with fresh ideas take a crack at it could lead to success this time, whereas last time they went with Judd Winick. No wonder it tanked.

Or they could just retire the property altogether, and move those characters into other areas like they've done with Dick.

Otherwise, the article ignores the fact that many of the Pre-Flashpoint titles sucked. Continuity isn't the main issue here, but the stories being told is. The New 52 has had great books and several stinkers, just like the old canon, and no doubt the same will be true post-Rebirth. Superman seems to be getting screwed no matter which comic canon he's in. And the importance of having a Golden Age and legacies is a matter of opinion. The latter isn't as progressive as people think, it's just putting someone's clothes on someone else. It's the illusion of change, whereas creating actual new and unique characters and utilizing the limitless Multiverse to give them their own settings and mythos is actually creative.

Their predecessors are the ones who the masks were created for. But fine, if it's about just a "good story", then there's absolutely no need to link them to the original characters. Make new ones. We all know how the story goes anyway, "oh I am relatable everyday person, whoa, I have superpowers now, this is crazy," and so on, so on and all that other stuff that's been ripping Spider-Man for about fifty years.

Kyle Rayner in a nutshell.

It's so stupid that they've had three different Captain Americas in the span of a few years, for example.

It rivals what DC did with the Flash between 2006-2009 going Wally-Bart-Wally-Barry.

It was fun in the mid-1990s when DC went Bruce-Jean Paul-Bruce-Dick-Bruce with Batman from 1994-1995.

It's especially stupid when its big name characters like Cap, Bruce and Thor, who also are appearing in big tentpole films. We all know the original will be back, the legacy won't last (thus rendering the term kind of pointless), so why should we care?

[Sacred Knight]

Legacy, to me, is overrated and overused, at least in terms of the passing the torch element. I don't care about second generation heroes taking up the mantle of other characters. It can work on occasion, but more often than not I don't care. The second generation, while forming via the sidekick idea, should be their own entities. Not in line to "take over" for the main guys. Again, by and large, that's not necessarily a blanket statement. But the concept was overused by DC in latter post-Crisis years.

[Agent Z]

Their predecessors are the ones who the masks were created for. But fine, if it's about just a "good story", then there's absolutely no need to link them to the original characters. Make new ones. We all know how the story goes anyway, "oh I am relatable everyday person, whoa, I have superpowers now, this is crazy," and so on, so on and all that other stuff that's been ripping Spider-Man for about fifty years.

In the case of Ms Marvel, well, she's not a proper legacy hero in anything other than her name, and she works completely without Captain Marvel around, it's honestly more akin to how Jaime Reyes has nothing to do with Ted Kord or Dan Garrett or how a lot of the SA heroes were re-imaginings of GA heroes.

Then the other ones who are actual legacy heroes- well, this covers it:



It's so stupid that they've had three different Captain Americas in the span of a few years, for example.

Be honest. There's of stories DC's told that are derivative of something else.

[Buried Alien]

Legacy, to me, is overrated and overused, at least in terms of the passing the torch element. I don't care about second generation heroes taking up the mantle of other characters. It can work on occasion, but more often than not I don't care. The second generation, while forming via the sidekick idea, should be their own entities. Not in line to "take over" for the main guys. Again, by and large, that's not necessarily a blanket statement. But the concept was overused by DC in latter post-Crisis years.

I like it up to a point. I like it when it doesn't result in older, established characters being put out to pasture to accommodate it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Agent Z]

The Titans entry gets some mixed reactions from me. Yeah, losing that history has really hurt a lot of the characters, especially Dick and Cyborg. And no lineup has ever managed to live up to that period. But trying to recapture that nostalgia hasn't lead to anything great either. Maybe get
the iconic Titans group (the O5 + Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy and Terra) together again as a base, but also add new characters (both heroes and villains) and concepts for them to go up against. Having one of the current crop of talented new writers with fresh ideas take a crack at it could lead to success this time, whereas last time they went with Judd Winick. No wonder it tanked.

Or they could just retire the property altogether, and move those characters into other areas like they've done with Dick.

Otherwise, the article ignores the fact that many of the Pre-Flashpoint titles sucked. Continuity isn't the main issue here, but the stories being told is. The New 52 has had great books and several stinkers, just like the old canon, and no doubt the same will be true post-Rebirth. Superman seems to be getting screwed no matter which comic canon he's in. And the importance of having a Golden Age and legacies is a matter of opinion. The latter isn't as progressive as people think, it's just putting someone's clothes on someone else. It's the illusion of change, whereas creating actual new and unique characters and utilizing the limitless Multiverse to give them their own settings and mythos is actually creative.




Kyle Rayner in a nutshell.






It's especially stupid when its big name characters like Cap, Bruce and Thor, who also are appearing in big tentpole films. We all know the original will be back, the legacy won't last (thus rendering the term kind of pointless), so why should we care?

Point is the legacies have their fans just like their predecessors. And it's not like keeping them around means the old guard have to disappear.

[SiegePerilous02]

Point is the legacies have their fans just like their predecessors. And it's not like keeping them around means the old guard have to disappear.

Not in the case of Barry Allen when Wally was the Flash, or when Hal turned into an insane supervillain to make way for Kyle. Granted, Hal was still around but not in a role many (if any) of his fans wanted to see him in as the Spectre.

Can't the characters who happen to be legacies be strong characters on their own without wearing someone else's clothes? Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain don't have to be Batgirl to have good stories told about them. Meanwhile, Babs still gets to be Batgirl.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Also, when they made Cyborg a founding member of the Justice League instead of the Martian Manhunter, I guess this where PC comes in. If they wanted a non-white "human" character why not Apache Chief, Black Lightning, or Black Vulcan? Why a second generation Titan?

1- There are no second gen Titans.
2- Black Lightning could always go sour because of Tony Isabella. Black Vulcan is not a DC property, AFAIK, neither is Apache Chief. Also, black characters with "Black" on their name for no other reason than being Black can generate backlash.
3- They could have gone with Stewart instead of Jordan, but John is just not as popular among comic readers (popularity is probably reversed among people who like superheroes but don't read comics; regardless, comics are what DC sells)
4- Cyborg was in Superfriends, so, you know, he's as good a char for a silver/bronze age retelling as any other.

The problem is not the Cyborg was in the LEague, it was his portrayal there.

[Agent Z]

Not in the case of Barry Allen when Wally was the Flash, or when Hal turned into an insane supervillain to make way for Kyle. Granted, Hal was still around but not in a role many (if any) of his fans wanted to see him in as the Spectre.

Can't the characters who happen to be legacies be strong characters on their own without wearing someone else's clothes? Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain don't have to be Batgirl to have good stories told about them. Meanwhile, Babs still gets to be Batgirl.

I can just as easily ask can't the predecessors take on other roles? Oracle does have fans.

[SiegePerilous02]

I can just as easily ask can't the predecessors take on other roles? Oracle does have fans.

Yeah of course they can. Oracle is an example that was more well received than most and lent itself to some great stories. But then you have Hal as Spectre, which is significantly less revered. And in general, I can't think of many others besides Dick and Jason in which the predecessor didn't end up dead instead of taking on a new role (Barry, Ollie, Jean Grey off and on with Rachel, etc.).

And again, why not just make new characters with their own costumed identities? The explosion of creativity from the Silver Age has never been replicated in that regard, and that might be why many of the characters from that period endure longer than their replacements.

[BatfanReborn]

I've read plenty of DC Comics from throughout the ages and I don't think any of the elements listed in the article are crucial to the current continuity or the ability to tell good stories within it. If anything, they could serve to make stories more convoluted and less interesting. (I don't need every Justice League story to have pages dedicated to Cyborg reminiscing about his time with Teen Titans or every time heroes meet each other saying 'Hey! Remember that story from that issue that came out in 1964?' for example.)

[MadFacedKid]

Legacy, to me, is overrated and overused, at least in terms of the passing the torch element. I don't care about second generation heroes taking up the mantle of other characters. It can work on occasion, but more often than not I don't care. The second generation, while forming via the sidekick idea, should be their own entities. Not in line to "take over" for the main guys. Again, by and large, that's not necessarily a blanket statement. But the concept was overused by DC in latter post-Crisis years.

The thing I don't get is why some people want Grayson to be Batman, I personally want him away from the Batman mythos and events and become his own hero. The point in the original Teen Titans was sidekicks coming together to branch away from their mentors and make it out in the world. Grayson goes further with this becoming Nightwing so he wouldn't have to be under Batman's shadow he also moves to his own city. Becoming Batman was regression going back to his mythos was regression. During Cerdian War we see an older Garth say the team was called "Titans of Justice" the original sidekicks should join with other characters of their era or others in general to form their own team and make their own presence Donna shouldn't become Wonder Woman she should make it big as Troia. If you want characters who might someday become the league go with the YJ generation Tim/Kon/Cassie

[Lightning Rider]

Solid list. The friendships one really hit home.