The JSDF (Gate) in Westeros

[Laevatein]

Okay, I posted this in the "Curbstomps you'd like to see" thread, but I think it would work okay as a regular thread. Same setup as Gate, except that the gate opens from modern-day Japan to Westeros. What happens?

[Endless_Legend]

Most likely, nothing.

The JSDF might send a few SF teams in to scout, fly a couple of UAVs around, etc. That's about it.

Remember, Westeros is basically medieval England and Scotland. Compared to a modern First-World nation like Japan, it's essentially a barren wilderness with a sprinkling of tiny, tiny cities and towns. The only way I can see there being a real conflict is if the Westerosi decide to go through the gate to Japan, and some Boltons (or whatever) decide to start terrorizing Japanese civilians. For about twenty minutes or so they'd run wild, until the firearm-carrying SWAT teams of the Japanese federal police show up and shoot them all with these handy things we have called rifles.

From there, the Gate gets locked down. Nobody is allowed near it on the Japan side. On the Westeros side, I imagine the JSDF would build some kind of garrison around it to stop anybody from trying to go through.

Nobody gets through.

Around 1884 we invented this handy thing call the Machine Gun, thanks to Sir Hyram Maxim. No army from Westeros will survive going up against it, although I imagine a few will try.

[The Watcher]

How many Game Of Thrones fans are there in Japan? Because I can see a bunch of them trying to go through the gate with modern technology to help their favorite characters and/or kill the characters they hate the most. Tourists who are fans from other countries as well.

The Japanese government would probably put some thought on what to do about the White Walkers. Modern military technology would make short work of them. The question is whether to wait until they become an immediate problem by overruning Westeros and threatening to come through the gate or to take a proactive stance to send the military in and obliterate them while they're still north of The Wall. The latter would be a smarter move because it prevents a humanatarian crisis of figuring out to do with the hordes of Westeros refugees trying to flee to safety but the constitutional and political hurdles might be too difficult to overcome for that to happen.

[Melchior]

Provided no book knowledge applies....

Things go a lot worse. Lower fantasy setting, so the JSDF has less chances to do PR coups by protecting the locals from the local wildlife. The Westeros government is in a completely different place than the Empire from Gate. The Empire is expanding, has clear second-class citizen/slave class, and a buffer of subordinate states. They have a reason to travel through the Gate (expansion, gathering slaves), and a more well-rounded army. The Empire's funds are probably better, too. Context I got was that while straight monetary reparations would wreck the economy, a scheduled series of payments and trade agreements would work just as well. And both sides know that, and are preparing to get down to working that out as of the latest stuff I have seen. The biggest hurdle there is that the Emperor does not want to give anything away, and plans to get things stuck in red-tape and bureaucracy until Japan gives up. The Empire probably also have more hubris than Westeros as well, but that actually works in their favor in this setting since the JSDF has to play with kid gloves to avoid having other countries "help" Japan out. The Empire has succeeded in getting Japan to treat with them as, if not equals, then players on the same field.

Depending on when in the Song of Ice and Fire series we are at, Westeros is a fragile confederacy of states not yet stabilized after a revolution, or is in the midst of splintering. Less reason to travel through the Gate to attack. Worse finances as well. It is a plot point that the Seven Kingdoms are in debt up to their eyeballs, and that the main reason no one has come to collect is that there is an ocean in the way. Which is why some groups are working on getting Daenerys over the ocean with an army.

Things I see happening:
* Tyrion, poor guy, is the first notable character to see modern weapons in play. He immediately grasps the chance of Westeros winning against the JSDF, and will mostly take up Pina's roll. His effectiveness depends on whether or not he can get solid proof to Jaime. Jaime is smart enough to realize what that means, pragmatic enough to act enough, and in the right position to get his father and sister to listen, which means Tywin will work things out, which means Iron Throne will realize that a direct fight would lead to Westeros losing.
* The Starks might get off slightly better. I can see Itami being convinced to sneak all of them out after Ned's unfortunate turn, and an air extraction is something Westeros would not consider. If that does happen, then Robb can simply hole up in the north as his own country. This might spark the Dorns seceding as well, though they do not have the Fens acting as a natural barrier to army movements. The Riverlands and the Vale might side with him, but that is iffy.
* The JSDF performs a paternity test for a lower-ranking noble. Cersei and Jaime freak.
* Joffrey needs to be kept away from the JSDF delegates, or he will do something to wreck everything.
* Depending on where the Gate shows up on the Westeros side, the JSDF might simply ignore some things. Like the Wall and the White Walkers (even the entire north, simply due to not wanting to put an armor column through a swampland to get there). And I doubt they will interact with Daenerys or over the sea at all.
* Stannis and Renly(?) are probably going to be a problem, but I am not certain how.

Admittedly, this is colored by my perception that the Seven Kingdoms no longer work as a single country after Robert's death, and that the whole thing should probably be split up again for everyone's sake.

[Laevatein]

In case people aren't familiar with Gate, it's being legally streamed here.

[Endless_Legend]

Admittedly, this is colored by my perception that the Seven Kingdoms no longer work as a single country after Robert's death, and that the whole thing should probably be split up again for everyone's sake.

Basically. The entire thing was always pretty fragile to begin with, even moreso than Medieval England was. Actually, if anything, Westeros more resembles the Saxon kingdoms during the Viking Age, 9th-century ish, in terms of the level of political stability.

If the Westerosi do decide to get hostile, or Stannis decides to employ the Red Witch's magic against the JSDF, here's another problem they'll run into: Democratic power structures (mature ones like the United States and Japan, anyway) are not vulnerable to assassination and don't depend on personal loyalty.
They'd quickly realize that alot of their scheming and plotting simply wouldn't work. Kill a JDSF commander with some shadow-creature, and the Lt Colonel under him is now the commander. Kill a Japanese minister and whoever is under him in order of succession becomes that minister. Policy doesn't change.

Republics and democracies are inherently more resilient and stable than feudal power structures. This wouldn't give Japan or the JDSF any sort of magic bullet against Westerosi politics, of course. But it would make them virtually immune to any sort of leveraging or plotting that the Westeros characters might cook up.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

In case people aren't familiar with Gate, it's being legally streamed here.

Legal you say?

A POX I SAY.

[Endless_Legend]

Things I see happening:
* Tyrion, poor guy, is the first notable character to see modern weapons in play. He immediately grasps the chance of Westeros winning against the JSDF, and will mostly take up Pina's roll. His effectiveness depends on whether or not he can get solid proof to Jaime. Jaime is smart enough to realize what that means, pragmatic enough to act enough, and in the right position to get his father and sister to listen, which means Tywin will work things out, which means Iron Throne will realize that a direct fight would lead to Westeros losing.

Or any kind of fight, really. Westeros is about 1000 years behind on gear, tactics, training, and battlefield doctrine. Basically, if things turn hostile, all possible outcomes are negative for them.

* Joffrey needs to be kept away from the JSDF delegates, or he will do something to wreck everything.

How? He's a child, and even if this is when he's king, all he has to call upon is the same guys wielding sharpened bits of steel that are already outclassed by a millenium. The JSDF are basically immune to whatever he could do, for the same reason their scheming wouldn't work either.

Short of inviting a japanese ambassador to a peace summit on false pretenses, and then having the guy executed publicly, I don't see how he could ruin things. And the JSDF aren't idiots, after they see what Westeros is like, they aren't going to let any delegate go anywhere without a column of Strykers and a company of JSDF marines around him.

Actually, the JSDF would probably insist on any Westeros delegates coming to one of *their* FOBs for any peace talks.

* Depending on where the Gate shows up on the Westeros side, the JSDF might simply ignore some things. Like the Wall and the White Walkers (even the entire north, simply due to not wanting to put an armor column through a swampland to get there). And I doubt they will interact with Daenerys or over the sea at all.

Eventually the walkers will be something they can't ignore. But I heard howitzers and FFAR barrages from Apaches work wonders against zombie hordes.

[Melchior]

Or any kind of fight, really. Westeros is about 1000 years behind on gear, tactics, training, and battlefield doctrine. Basically, if things turn hostile, all possible outcomes are negative for them.

Oh, agreed. The trick is getting Westeros to understand that without getting wiped out first.

How? He's a child, and even if this is when he's king, all he has to call upon is the same guys wielding sharpened bits of steel that are already outclassed by a millenium. The JSDF are basically immune to whatever he could do, for the same reason their scheming wouldn't work either.

Short of inviting a japanese ambassador to a peace summit on false pretenses, and then having the guy executed publicly, I don't see how he could ruin things. And the JSDF aren't idiots, after they see what Westeros is like, they aren't going to let any delegate go anywhere without a column of Strykers and a company of JSDF marines around him.

Actually, the JSDF would probably insist on any Westeros delegates coming to one of *their* FOBs for any peace talks.

Well, after getting the crown, Joffrey is technically the king, and if the JSDF are acting the same as in the source series, they will at least meet with Joffrey for appearance's sake while opening negotiations with the current Hand/court. The problem I was alluding to is that if there are Japanese captives that Joffrey has access to, I can see him pulling a Zorval and hurting/killing one in front of the JSDF. Which will then cause a retaliation (in Gate, that was the JSDF precision bombing the Senate building).

Eventually the walkers will be something they can't ignore. But I heard howitzers and FFAR barrages from Apaches work wonders against zombie hordes.

Sorry, running off book continuity. Which has the White Walkers still north of the wall as of end of book 5. Unless you are spotting the Gate staying open longer than it does in the Gate series, I do not think the Walkers will become a problem before it closes.

Obviously, if the Gate does stay open, I can see the Japanese locking up the area and withdrawing until things get better.... which will be several years at minimum. And as you stated, modern warfare does have the firepower to reduce zombie hordes to ash.

[Endless_Legend]

Unless you are spotting the Gate staying open longer than it does in the Gate series,

Haven't watched it. Was just told about it by co-workers. I was going by my knowledge of the JDSF in real life, not the series, although I presume they're not that different.

[Melchior]

Haven't watched it. Was just told about it by co-workers. I was going by my knowledge of the JDSF in real life, not the series, although I presume they're not that different.

Actually, it is a bit from the novels I was spoiled on a bit back. They only started broaching the subject of the Gate not being a permanent opening in the latest episode.

As for the JSDF, it is probably reasonably close. Performs a bit better than it probably would in real life, and a bit more white knight (though the latter actually has a plausible explanation - if PR goes bad and other nations hear about it, they will "assist" whether Japan likes it or not).

[Endless_Legend]

- if PR goes bad and other nations here about it, they will "assist" whether Japan likes it or not).

I don't really see that happening. Japan these days is another great power, economically, just like France, Germany, or the US, and thanks to us, they're pretty fierce militarily. We care alot about their opinion of us, I don't see us ever, ever trying to force their hand about something.

The only reason the US even still has bases there is because they want them there, because they see the advantage in having American military presence on their soil: It intimidates rivals like China or North Korea. (the same reason everyone in Europe keeps US bases on their soil) The only way American (or EU) troops would ever "assist" Japan is if they asked for the assistance, or if enough diplomatic pressure was applied and incentives offered that they saw it was worth it.

Why do you say "performs a bit better than it would in real life"? What makes you think the JSDF is incompetent?

[Melchior]

I don't really see that happening. Japan these days is another great power, economically, just like France, Germany, or the US, and thanks to us, they're pretty fierce militarily. We care alot about their opinion of us, I don't see us ever, ever trying to force their hand about something.

The only reason the US even still has bases there is because they want them there, because they see the advantage in having American military presence on their soil: It intimidates rivals like China or North Korea. (the same reason everyone in Europe keeps US bases on their soil) The only way American (or EU) troops would ever "assist" Japan is if they asked for the assistance, or if enough diplomatic pressure was applied and incentives offered that they saw it was worth it.

Why do you say "performs a bit better than it would in real life"? What makes you think the JSDF is incompetent?

If you do not mind, I will answer as best I can in reverse order.

I am not saying the JSDF is incompetent. I usually am defending how well they do in Gate, so having to field this is odd to me. However, they are a primarily peace-keeping force with no major military engagements in recent history (remember, the source is several years old at this point, so this is before the recent upsurge from the Abe administration), are eager to prove themselves, are running with older equipment (minor plot point from the series - they are sent with older equipment just in case it is lost), and performing a task that they have essentially not done before. I have no problem with how well Itami actually does. Japan Special Forces are blooded, have significantly higher training, and he is a bit of a Golden Boy. I have a bit of an issue with Kuribayashi taking down multiple opponents that are 1.5x bigger than her using a bayonet, especially when they are armored and used to fighting spears. More surprisingly, she did not seem to get a reprimand of any sort after punching out the Crown Prince in front of the Emperor, which could have had severe political repurcussions. Then there is Yanagida surviving the assassination attempt.

Honestly, what makes me say "performs a bit better than it would in real life" is the fact that things have consistently worked out in the JSDF's favor. No battle casualties, or even just injuries, despite it being nearly everyone's first time killing enemy soldiers. No actual JSDF deaths to the wildlife while doing their recon. No reports of natives hostile to outsiders. No odd illnesses. They go out of their way to have the red light district complain about the JSDF not visiting them, though they actually explain that with a published report of the local STDs. No discipline problems that cannot be ignored. No issues with the natives living in the "company town" around Alnus. No smuggling of cross-Gate items out of Alnus, either way. No unexpected problems due to xenophobia.

Then there is the relevant bit from episode 19. Alnus is a bigger deal than immediately shown. To put it in perspective, aliens have conquered and occuppied Jerusalem, but no one seems to mind.

There is also the fact that there is a lot of "Right People, Right Place, Right Time" working in favor of the JSDF. JSDF troops happening to come across Fire Dragon survivors. Rory Mercury deciding to attach herself to the JSDF, which adds significant legitimacy. Italica could have gone significantly worse, with either the JSDF not coming in time, the locals not being more open to strangers than the norm for the Empire, or Itami being sent anywhere other than back to Italica. Pina managing to get the trip across the Gate and realizing she could leverage captured Imperials for peace votes. The fact that nothing went "wrong" during the cross-Gate trip, despite other intelligence agencies working all of the angles. People who could identify earthquake warning signs, in positions to actually act on them, and have it occur. And so on and so forth.

To put it another way, the JSDF is doing at least as well as the American military would do if this was a US production. Honestly, looking at their history of public works and the like, I think the Empire and the rest of the Gate world lucked out in getting Japan rather than one of the other powers.

As for the PR situation and other nations "helping" out.... well, that is a plot point from the Gate series. The Gate potentially provides access to a whole world of resources, of new markets, of habitable land, with no natives capable of stopping a modern military force. And that is all available to whoever controls the Gate. If Japan holds the Gate, then they can literally cut themselves off from the rest of Earth and be fine, and everyone is aware of this. The situation is basically a mixture of colonizing the New World/Americas and the Gold Rush (and it probably shows how I feel about society that I do not think it will go better for the natives this go around). Access to the Gate and the resources across it is game-changer in the political power plays of Earth. No world power worthy of the name can ignore such a thing.

There is also the legal concern. Japan's military at the time was a Self-Defense Force. They are not supposed to be able go project power at all, though the Japanese do use some creative interpretation there (see the helicopter carrier Kaga). I was surprised when you mentioned howitzers, because I did not realize you can portray artillery as defensive in nature (which caused me to look at the JSDF's acknowledged hardware, so thanks for educating). It is nearly impossible to describe holding Alnus as anything other than invading and occupying hostile territory. By Japan's own constitution, they should have been required to at least call in someone to assist with setting up the Alnus base. Instead, they use the fact that since the Gate is in Japan, and you can only get to the lands through the Gate by going through Japan, then the lands through the Gate are contained within Japan as well, so anything that goes on through the Gate is handled by Japanese domestic policy. All the major political figures acknowledge that it is a ridiculous stretch, but passively agree to it since it keeps the others from getting the prize. And thus Japan gets control of the Gate without having any oversight other than their own (which is bad enough, in all truth. The lady from the Japanese Senate scenes is a reference to an actual major politician of the time, and was not exaggerated from what I can tell). And admittedly, with camera phones and streaming video, more probably gets out than Japan wants.

If this situation was to happen in the real world, with Japan's history, I can see no way that they could cross through the Gate without UN "observers". And I cannot see the United States not muscling in some "advisors" to work with the JSDF with so much to possibly gain.

So, yes, I see nations pushing themselves onto Japan, possibly to the point of invasion, in return for access to an untapped Middle-East Oil, new diamond mines to rival anything in Africa, all the coal and iron you can want, pristine forests and oceans and farmland, and a huge new market that will buy anything you make. Unsurpassed wealth covers a multitude of sins, and so forth.

To tie back into the thread, the difference in settings makes me think that Japan will try for the high road that they did in Gate, but the significantly worse local situation will end up hamstringing that.

[Endless_Legend]

So, yes, I see nations pushing themselves onto Japan, possibly to the point of invasion, in return for access to an untapped Middle-East Oil, new diamond mines to rival anything in Africa, all the coal and iron you can want, pristine forests and oceans and farmland, and a huge new market that will buy anything you make. Unsurpassed wealth covers a multitude of sins, and so forth.

To tie back into the thread, the difference in settings makes me think that Japan will try for the high road that they did in Gate, but the significantly worse local situation will end up hamstringing that.

Okay, analyzed that way, it does make sense. Although I still don't see anyone *forcing* Japan to do anything, that just doesn't happen between First World nations anymore, but instead applying tremendous economic pressure and incentive (especially between big American/EU multinationals and the Japanese ones) that would in turn apply tremendous pressure on Japan politicians to "invite" foreign advisors, private contractor, and eventually companies like Kellog, Brown, and Root to come and rape the Gate-world of it's natural resources.

So, Japan could get co-opted into the inter-Gate schemes of the United State and EU, definitely.

Something just like this happened in my state and my little town, but it was over natural gas deposits. Suffice to say, we tried to prevent them from raping our land and putting up natural gas wells everywhere, and found ourselves betrayed by our own state government, who sided with the big corporations and passed laws banning cities from creating any city ordinances against gas drilling. It was all shady as hell and we couldn't do anything to stop it. Up the gas wells went even though nobody wanted it. The big monied interests won and not a shot was fired.

So it might go with Japan and foreign intervention. Although of course, once they cross over into Gate-world, shots will probably get fired.