Squadron Supreme #4 (Spoilers)

[Reviresco]

No, that's not how he writes...that's how you think he is writing it. We have no way of knowing if all the different threads he's got going will last years or just a few issues.

That's how we know he wrote All New Invaders. That's also how he wrote Starman. It's an observation made off past performance, and similarities to this series. And we have a pretty good idea, from the downward trajectory of sales, that these threads are going to last about a year, if that, whether or not he finishes them or not. Again, that's what happened with All New Invaders, with Robinson frustrating introducing more and more plot threads, instead of finishing up ... well any of them, now that I think about.

The book is supposedly an ongoing series, so he should plan it as such. If it was a mini, then he should write with that in mind. Now, I agree that the book could use some more focus, but that's a valid criticism. Making a prediction about a book's lifespan and then criticizing the writer for not writing with that lifespan in mind is not a valid criticism.

Of course it's a perfectly valid criticism. Anyone who reads Marvel comics KNOWS they have, for all intents and purposes, done away with ongoing, as a book that goes on and on, for anything but the top sellers. And even those aren't safe with all the relaunches and stupid events. Anyone who has listened to Alonso repeatedly praise the 'season' approach, knows this. Anyone who has read Brevroot go on and on about books allegedly having to pull their own weight -- unless, of course it's a movie property / something Marvel is pushing, knows this.

[hawkeyefan]

That's how we know he wrote All New Invaders. That's also how he wrote Starman. It's an observation made off past performance, and similarities to this series. And we have a pretty good idea, from the downward trajectory of sales, that these threads are going to last about a year, if that, whether or not he finishes them or not. Again, that's what happened with All New Invaders, with Robinson frustrating introducing more and more plot threads, instead of finishing up ... well any of them, now that I think about.

Of course it's a perfectly valid criticism. Anyone who reads Marvel comics KNOWS they have, for all intents and purposes, done away with ongoing, as a book that goes on and on, for anything but the top sellers. And even those aren't safe with all the relaunches and stupid events. Anyone who has listened to Alonso repeatedly praise the 'season' approach, knows this. Anyone who has read Brevroot go on and on about books allegedly having to pull their own weight -- unless, of course it's a movie property / something Marvel is pushing, knows this.

It's really not a fair criticism. If there was some story element that gave us a clue about the length of time it would take to resolve, that would be one thing.

But honestly, the threads that have been introduced so far don't really seem to be so labarynthine that they can't be resolved within a few issues. He may have a one year plan for the book. Honestly, I would expect most writers to have at least that unless they knew for sure it would be for less time, like Ellis on Secret Avengers or Moon Knight, for example.

I agree with you about the shift from ongoing series that last for years, but even still, successful books tend to continue on, or if they are relaunched, it's often with the same creative team.

So why should he wrote the book with anything other than success in mind? If it doesn't last, and the stories are not resolved, then so be it. He should be writing with the expectation that the book will be around for a bit. I'm not saying he should have a five year plan or anything...those runs are few and far between these days....but it's only issue 4.

As I said...some of the criticisms of the book are valid. I share some. But this idea of criticizing Robinson or any other writer for not writing with our own predicted timeframes in mind seems bizarre.

[Reviresco]

It's really not a fair criticism. If there was some story element that gave us a clue about the length of time it would take to resolve, that would be one thing.

But honestly, the threads that have been introduced so far don't really seem to be so labarynthine that they can't be resolved within a few issues. He may have a one year plan for the book. Honestly, I would expect most writers to have at least that unless they knew for sure it would be for less time, like Ellis on Secret Avengers or Moon Knight, for example.

I agree with you about the shift from ongoing series that last for years, but even still, successful books tend to continue on, or if they are relaunched, it's often with the same creative team.

So why should he wrote the book with anything other than success in mind? If it doesn't last, and the stories are not resolved, then so be it. He should be writing with the expectation that the book will be around for a bit. I'm not saying he should have a five year plan or anything...those runs are few and far between these days....but it's only issue 4.

As I said...some of the criticisms of the book are valid. I share some. But this idea of criticizing Robinson or any other writer for not writing with our own predicted timeframes in mind seems bizarre.

I didn't say Robinson should write to MY predicted timeframe, nor do I think anyone else said so.

I don't know why you think only your opinion is valid or people who think differently from you have bizarre ideas -- but I'm not going to continue this discussion with you, if your are going to resort to such dismissive tactics.

[UltimateTy]

Thank God I didn't read this thread before buying the book.

I really enjoyed the issue and I dug the Power Princess twist.

The final page fell flat for me though.

[Pat Thomas]

It's really not a fair criticism. If there was some story element that gave us a clue about the length of time it would take to resolve, that would be one thing.

But honestly, the threads that have been introduced so far don't really seem to be so labarynthine that they can't be resolved within a few issues. He may have a one year plan for the book. Honestly, I would expect most writers to have at least that unless they knew for sure it would be for less time, like Ellis on Secret Avengers or Moon Knight, for example.

I agree with you about the shift from ongoing series that last for years, but even still, successful books tend to continue on, or if they are relaunched, it's often with the same creative team.

So why should he wrote the book with anything other than success in mind? If it doesn't last, and the stories are not resolved, then so be it. He should be writing with the expectation that the book will be around for a bit. I'm not saying he should have a five year plan or anything...those runs are few and far between these days....but it's only issue 4.

As I said...some of the criticisms of the book are valid. I share some. But this idea of criticizing Robinson or any other writer for not writing with our own predicted timeframes in mind seems bizarre.

I haven't had the time to start this series yet, although I have all 4 so far, but I'm glad to see somebody at least attempting to put it into perspective instead of attacking the book
or the author after such a short time. I can understand why a Namor fan would automatically carry a prejudice after the events of issue 1, but many of the other negative statements
in every SS thread sound more like piling on than anything. Nice to have a voice of reason every once in a while. Welcome back.

[XPac]

It's really not a fair criticism. If there was some story element that gave us a clue about the length of time it would take to resolve, that would be one thing.

But honestly, the threads that have been introduced so far don't really seem to be so labarynthine that they can't be resolved within a few issues. He may have a one year plan for the book. Honestly, I would expect most writers to have at least that unless they knew for sure it would be for less time, like Ellis on Secret Avengers or Moon Knight, for example.

I agree with you about the shift from ongoing series that last for years, but even still, successful books tend to continue on, or if they are relaunched, it's often with the same creative team.

So why should he wrote the book with anything other than success in mind? If it doesn't last, and the stories are not resolved, then so be it. He should be writing with the expectation that the book will be around for a bit. I'm not saying he should have a five year plan or anything...those runs are few and far between these days....but it's only issue 4.

As I said...some of the criticisms of the book are valid. I share some. But this idea of criticizing Robinson or any other writer for not writing with our own predicted timeframes in mind seems bizarre.

I do think if you're not writing an established franchise you should be prepared if necessary to wrap up a book in 6 issues. And be ready again at 12 or so if tour sales aren't solid.

That may be overly pessimistic, but I also think that's how one needs to realistically approach writing comics given how unforgiving the market typically is.

[Joe Acro]

I didn't quite get the point of the team--and still don't, really--from the start. But they were going to Weirdworld, involving Thundra and Arkon, so I continued reading. Yet, as I continue to read, and as Secret Wars has come to a close, this series doesn't really seem to make sense.

Weirdworld was as much a part of Battleworld as everything else. It was its own territory, floating somewhere above the planet, but was a composite of a few realities much like Battleworld itself. Arkon, Crystar, and Apelantis are not from the same universe, certainly. During Secret Wars, it was controlled by Morgan Le Fey. While we didn't see her defeat--at least, not completely, we did see her arm get bitten--Arkon declared himself Lord of Warlords. Presuming this is accurate and not just hyperbole, that presumably puts him in the same shoes Morgan used to wear. (Not literally, as amusing a sight as they would be.) So I guess it makes sense that if Druid is able to control him, then he's able to control most everything else in Weirdworld. Yet Druid makes it clear that he can't control beings who are from realities other than the main Marvel Universe. Arkon isn't from the main universe, so he should be exempt, no? Moreover, clearly the Black Knight is a lord within Weirdworld and yet Druid doesn't try to take control of him, even though having a bloodthirsty ally would likely be advantageous. And within the Black Knight's book, the Uncanny Avengers appear. If Druid is right in saying that he would just control them if they appeared, why not do so then? I don't read the main Weirdworld book, so I don't know if that references anything here or in Black Knight, but just the conflicting stories between two of the... four? (how many books are going to Weirdworld) Weirdworld stories seems, well, weird.

How can Druid exist in Weirdworld, yet nowhere else? Sure, it's a land of the lost, but we haven't really seen it exhibit any special magical properties that other dimensions haven't had. We have, however, seen Druid exist within the main universe as recently as Chaos War. If he held such ill-will toward his former allies, and was so tired of being a wraith, his actions within that story don't really make much sense.

The basic premise of the Squadron is lacking even, as it unites heroes of supposedly dead universes. Yet the end of Secret Wars suggests that everything that was destroyed was prevented from being destroyed--the Black Panther returned to the scene of the first incursion and the incursion didn't come and his three fellow Wakandans remained perfectly safe. So while it's possible Doc Spectrum's Earth was destroyed by another set of events, a set of events still including Namor and Black Bolt, it certainly seems like Robinson is writing as if the incursions all still happened. And even if one wanted to argue that this a new universe that the incursions didn't touch--a new universe, as it were, born from Reed's imagination, incorporating elements from Battleworld--that doesn't really explain this team in particular, as I'm fairly certain half of them weren't included on Battleworld (from what we saw of it).

And while it's a complaint a few issues old, Blur is entirely too at ease with superheroics, having come from a universe with a limited number of powered beings, few of which could really be called a "superhero".

I just don't think this really works within the larger framework. It's fine if treated as its own thing, sure. However, it's not exactly written that way. It's not a standalone property, as it pulls in other references to the main universe and has an editorial note to an older issue, but it's also no in line with the other properties either. It's weird.

[hawkeyefan]

I didn't say Robinson should write to MY predicted timeframe, nor do I think anyone else said so.

I don't know why you think only your opinion is valid or people who think differently from you have bizarre ideas -- but I'm not going to continue this discussion with you, if your are going to resort to such dismissive tactics.

I'm not dismissing anyone else's opinion. I think some of the criticisms are valid. My original comments about expected timeframes and such were in response to other folks...MindofShadow, mostly, I believe. And I am not dismissing it so much as disagreeing with it.

If I, as a reader, say "wow this book's got a shelf life of 8 issues" that's fine. But to then say "why is this book being written as if it's going to last past 8 issues?" I feel, is unfair.

Who writes with the expectation of failure?

I'm aware of the current trends in the industry and all, but we've no reason to believe that Robinson was told he has X number of issues for this book.

I haven't had the time to start this series yet, although I have all 4 so far, but I'm glad to see somebody at least attempting to put it into perspective instead of attacking the book
or the author after such a short time. I can understand why a Namor fan would automatically carry a prejudice after the events of issue 1, but many of the other negative statements
in every SS thread sound more like piling on than anything. Nice to have a voice of reason every once in a while. Welcome back.

Thank you sir. I find the book entertaining, although it is a little more all over the place than I was expecting. I'm hoping it all gets pulled together in an interesting way. We'll see.

I do think if you're not writing an established franchise you should be prepared if necessary to wrap up a book in 6 issues. And be ready again at 12 or so if tour sales aren't solid.

That may be overly pessimistic, but I also think that's how one needs to realistically approach writing comics given how unforgiving the market typically is.

See, I don't know if I agree with that. I think that the writer should focus on telling the best story that he/she can, and not worry about if there will be time to finish it. I mean, I know it's frustrating when a book I am enjoying is cancelled and doesn't get a proper ending. But let's be honest...hastily put together endings aren't really much more satisfying, and this being superhero comics, there's no real ending anyway.

So I don't think we are owed an ending, as much as it may be good to get one. Writers should tell the tale they have, and hopefully it will be good enough to garner an audience that will ensure that there will be time to tell it. If not, then it will be cancelled and forgotten.

I didn't quite get the point of the team--and still don't, really--from the start. But they were going to Weirdworld, involving Thundra and Arkon, so I continued reading. Yet, as I continue to read, and as Secret Wars has come to a close, this series doesn't really seem to make sense.

Weirdworld was as much a part of Battleworld as everything else. It was its own territory, floating somewhere above the planet, but was a composite of a few realities much like Battleworld itself. Arkon, Crystar, and Apelantis are not from the same universe, certainly. During Secret Wars, it was controlled by Morgan Le Fey. While we didn't see her defeat--at least, not completely, we did see her arm get bitten--Arkon declared himself Lord of Warlords. Presuming this is accurate and not just hyperbole, that presumably puts him in the same shoes Morgan used to wear. (Not literally, as amusing a sight as they would be.) So I guess it makes sense that if Druid is able to control him, then he's able to control most everything else in Weirdworld. Yet Druid makes it clear that he can't control beings who are from realities other than the main Marvel Universe. Arkon isn't from the main universe, so he should be exempt, no? Moreover, clearly the Black Knight is a lord within Weirdworld and yet Druid doesn't try to take control of him, even though having a bloodthirsty ally would likely be advantageous. And within the Black Knight's book, the Uncanny Avengers appear. If Druid is right in saying that he would just control them if they appeared, why not do so then? I don't read the main Weirdworld book, so I don't know if that references anything here or in Black Knight, but just the conflicting stories between two of the... four? (how many books are going to Weirdworld) Weirdworld stories seems, well, weird.

How can Druid exist in Weirdworld, yet nowhere else? Sure, it's a land of the lost, but we haven't really seen it exhibit any special magical properties that other dimensions haven't had. We have, however, seen Druid exist within the main universe as recently as Chaos War. If he held such ill-will toward his former allies, and was so tired of being a wraith, his actions within that story don't really make much sense.

The basic premise of the Squadron is lacking even, as it unites heroes of supposedly dead universes. Yet the end of Secret Wars suggests that everything that was destroyed was prevented from being destroyed--the Black Panther returned to the scene of the first incursion and the incursion didn't come and his three fellow Wakandans remained perfectly safe. So while it's possible Doc Spectrum's Earth was destroyed by another set of events, a set of events still including Namor and Black Bolt, it certainly seems like Robinson is writing as if the incursions all still happened. And even if one wanted to argue that this a new universe that the incursions didn't touch--a new universe, as it were, born from Reed's imagination, incorporating elements from Battleworld--that doesn't really explain this team in particular, as I'm fairly certain half of them weren't included on Battleworld (from what we saw of it).

And while it's a complaint a few issues old, Blur is entirely too at ease with superheroics, having come from a universe with a limited number of powered beings, few of which could really be called a "superhero".

I just don't think this really works within the larger framework. It's fine if treated as its own thing, sure. However, it's not exactly written that way. It's not a standalone property, as it pulls in other references to the main universe and has an editorial note to an older issue, but it's also no in line with the other properties either. It's weird.

Other than the main Weirdworld book, I'm not reading any of the other books that have tied in to the concept. So although I am interested in some of the questions you've brought up...such as the SS having their worlds destroyed in Incursions and so on...I'm not as concerned with all the exact ins and outs of Weirdworld itself.

It'd be nice to get some of the answers to the questions you ask, and I am hoping for some, but I don't really expect them all. The larger continuity doesn't really worry me, but I can understand why this book might bother someone who was more concerned with that.

[penthotal]

The basic premise of the Squadron is lacking even, as it unites heroes of supposedly dead universes. Yet the end of Secret Wars suggests that everything that was destroyed was prevented from being destroyed--the Black Panther returned to the scene of the first incursion and the incursion didn't come and his three fellow Wakandans remained perfectly safe. So while it's possible Doc Spectrum's Earth was destroyed by another set of events, a set of events still including Namor and Black Bolt, it certainly seems like Robinson is writing as if the incursions all still happened.

While Prime Earth story is intact after SW, all other universes have been destroyed by Incursions as previously shown. All the new existing universes have been created after Prime Earth.

[Joe Acro]

Other than the main Weirdworld book, I'm not reading any of the other books that have tied in to the concept. So although I am interested in some of the questions you've brought up...such as the SS having their worlds destroyed in Incursions and so on...I'm not as concerned with all the exact ins and outs of Weirdworld itself.

It'd be nice to get some of the answers to the questions you ask, and I am hoping for some, but I don't really expect them all. The larger continuity doesn't really worry me, but I can understand why this book might bother someone who was more concerned with that.

The larger continuity doesn't worry me either, it just strikes me weird how this book seems to want us to notice continuity when it itself isn't exactly adhering to it.

While Prime Earth story is intact after SW, all other universes have been destroyed by Incursions as previously shown. All the new existing universes have been created after Prime Earth.

Ah, but that would mean that "Prime Earth" Namor never encountered incursions, yet that is clearly not the case based on this series.

[hawkeyefan]

The larger continuity doesn't worry me either, it just strikes me weird how this book seems to want us to notice continuity when it itself isn't exactly adhering to it.

Ah, but that would mean that "Prime Earth" Namor never encountered incursions, yet that is clearly not the case based on this series.

I took that scene in Wakanda not as the incursions never having happened for those who lived through them so much as a resumption of the way things should have been due to Reed restoring things. I know that scene was what kicked off the whole Incursion story in New Avengers, but I think T'Challa remembers everything he's been through at this point.

So I don't know if it's ignoring continuity, but if it's inconsistencies with Black Knight or te X-Men book that took place in Wierdworld, it's not something I'd catch.

[penthotal]

Ah, but that would mean that "Prime Earth" Namor never encountered incursions, yet that is clearly not the case based on this series.

As also stated by the editor and writer Incursions happened, the difference it's the last one didn't destroy earth. The story differs from the final incursion not before. In the SW scene, what happens it's not that no Incursion happens, but that Black Panther choose to ignore it in order to save the Wakandian boys that died the first time. That Incursion was stopped by black swan not the illuminati, so it happen and has been stopped like the first time.

[dzub]

No. No no no no. you don't get to do that.

If they wanna kill someone, sure, knock themselves out. I am not even a huge Namor fan.

But, if that is your hook, "we will kill to protect!"... and you are a lower tier book... you don't jump off to Weirdworld for no obvious reason in the 4th issue.

This book is on thin ice due to its cast. So you stick to the point of the book, you keep it neat, you make it good.

Instead, we get one revenge porn issue, one snooze fest, one decent issue vs UA, and then a 4th issue which entirely changes the whole point of this book existing in the first place by running to WW.

So no, if I don't want to like this book, it isn't because of Namor. It is because the book as 4th grade reading leavel writing combined with not sticking to its intended plot.

QFT

How many times has Hickman 'killed' Namor yet i still kept reading his incursion saga?
SS is just a mess due to the reasons above

[lordozone]

QFT

How many times has Hickman 'killed' Namor yet i still kept reading his incursion saga?
SS is just a mess due to the reasons above

Exactly ! The problem is not the death of Namor, it's a comic book he can come back by a lot of ways. The problem is the author sold us a premise: "Punishers with superpowers", who destroy a country without battling an eyelid. It's a divisive but interesting premise, stick to it ! Seriously, who care about Dr druid and Weird world at this point of the story ?

[Joe Acro]

I know that scene was what kicked off the whole Incursion story in New Avengers, but I think T'Challa remembers everything he's been through at this point.

I definitely agree Panther remembers everything. I also think that's why there's an eight-month jump, to address that the incursion stories actually went at least eight months (given the countdown period we had).

So I don't know if it's ignoring continuity, but if it's inconsistencies with Black Knight or te X-Men book that took place in Wierdworld, it's not something I'd catch.

Definitely inconsistent with Black Knight, I can tell you that much. Conversely, Black Knight doesn't care about continuity. It uses the wrong main Avengers team (but at least has the right Uncanny Avengers team), ignores the past of the character, changes the characterization of Sir Percy, and treats New Avalon (the section of Weirdworld where Dane is ruling) as the only part of the realm that matters. It doesn't give us footnotes to help us understand what's going on, it just gives us things as they are, take it or leave it.

I don't know about X-Men either.

As also stated by the editor and writer Incursions happened, the difference it's the last one didn't destroy earth. The story differs from the final incursion not before. In the SW scene, what happens it's not that no Incursion happens, but that Black Panther choose to ignore it in order to save the Wakandian boys that died the first time. That Incursion was stopped by black swan not the illuminati, so it happen and has been stopped like the first time.

Ah, but if Black Panther altered the events, and the Illuminati didn't get involved in the incursions, how can Namor still be responsible for the destruction of a planet?