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  1. #1
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Default Diana and the Military

    Question in the golden age it made sense for Diana to work for the military. But what about Rebirth ? Is the military paying for her? I don’t know I feel like yes Diana should work for the military but just how much?
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  2. #2
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Question in the golden age it made sense for Diana to work for the military. But what about Rebirth ? Is the military paying for her? I don’t know I feel like yes Diana should work for the military but just how much?
    While I have enjoyed some of the Diana-military stories, I'm not sure it's the best track to take. I know, I know she works with the military, not for the military, but given the less good-v-evil nature in the public perception of now v. WWII (and in the nature of comics), it's a harder sell, I think. Though she should certainly get paid as a contractor. But I'm not sure how good it is to have her so integrated with the military, especially since (for a long while now), Etta has also been military. More ordinary earth friends outside of the military (Etta as original, Julia, etc.) would be a good thing, to me. And having so much work with the military sort of puts a lot of focus on those people as her supporting cast. Other heroes are fine to have around, but a solo hero needs soem non-cape supporting cast. So, I'd probably have Diana less involved with military (only doing so occasionally), and keep Steve in military. Also doesn't make "his people" (people he had a prior connection with) the bulk of the non-cape set she associates with.

    And, of course, the United States military is about serving the interests of the United States, and Diana should have a larger goal of helping the world. In WW II, it was much easier for the reading audience to perceive those two as the same thing - or at least that they intersected. Using a special branch that only deals with certain kinds of threats is a work-around there, though.

  3. #3
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Question in the golden age it made sense for Diana to work for the military. But what about Rebirth ? Is the military paying for her? I don’t know I feel like yes Diana should work for the military but just how much?
    I think Diana lends herself very well to military style stories and themes. She has a lot of good reason to cooperate with the military while maintaining a hard line of "I don't work FOR you, but will work WITH you when our interests align and if you try to force my hand you will regret it." I'd go so far as to say that, thematically, Diana's got one foot in myth and one foot in the kind of military/political thriller stories you see from characters like Captain America. Which is a pretty great combination and pretty unique in comics.

    I'd keep Diana's interactions with the military limited to Argus, which being a fictional branch of the armed forces gets to avoid a lot of the negative backlash the real American military creates, and since Argus usually focuses on superhuman/supernatural threats it helps ease the transition between "political thriller" and "myth and monsters" so you get a lot of blurred lines in the two themes without much threat of Diana being dragged into real-world commentary.

    I suppose the easiest breakdown is that I see Diana as being very much Captain America, as far as her involvement with the military goes (and if Steve Rogers fought real hydras instead of mooks who follow a dude without any skin on his head). She'll work with them, but will also work against them if she feels she should. And really, Diana isn't an American citizen and wouldn't be a part of the actual military anyway. She's a foreign national and diplomat so it's not like she's going to be taking orders from anyone, she'll be agreeing to lend a hand and help out on a case-by-case basis, and going her own way when she feels she should.

    Since I dont think Diana should have a secret identity with a 9-5 job, her ties to the military also makes for an easy explanation for where her money comes from. I'd say she's on government contract as a "civilian consultant" so she gets a paycheck and some other perks but isn't locked into the military hierarchy.
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  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I feel like Diana can get her own money and not get paid by the military. Diana has been dealing with corrupted people in the military. So I feel it would be bad idea. Maybe something like she get royalties from items with her name. I don’t mind if she had Diana Prince idea. Not for jobs rather just personal usage. I do see her being a defense teacher or what she does in the movies
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  5. #5
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I always liked Rucka's idea that Diana wrote books delving into Amazon philosophy and history. It's a great way for her to fulfill her mission of spreading the Amazon belief system and it also generates revenue for her (as well as stories where she deals with the backlash/adoration of the people who read her books).

    And I have no issue with her getting paid for licensing her likeness for merchandise either. Again, it's a great way for her to accomplish her mission, pay her bills, and give to charity.

    But there's so much rich narrative ground to explore with her ties to the military, and its such a big part of her history, I can't see getting rid of it. We might as well have Clark Kent stop working at the Daily Planet yknow? Hell, it's actually a fairly unique thing in the DCU; damn few heroes in DC have any relationship with the government or military at all. If I recall your posts right, you're not a big fan of the military so I get why you wouldn't want Diana to work with them on any level but there's just so much you can do with it! And it's not like everyone in the service is evil, or every choice the military makes is bad. Yes, there's corruption. Show me anything that doesn't have that. Yknow what that is? A chance to explore how Diana deals with rogue soldiers and generals. Which is a story I would love to see. Of course, I did some time in the service so I got to see firsthand how varied its members are, and I got a taste of the many factors and variables that go into any military decision (just a small taste, I wasn't there long enough to be high ranking at all, but people talk).
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  6. #6
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Diana tells the armies to stop shooting and go home.

    To the common soldiers, her arrival should not be a signal of victory, but that the war is over.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I have no issue with her working with the miltary it's more of being paid by the miltary. I mean what if Argus was a branch made by Diana? To deal with the miltary? It's somewhat a private funding by Diana or by something else. True Diana figthing a corrupted member would be nice. I mean on story idea is the fact miltary pays Diana means the miltary thinks they own her causesing the creation of ARGUS.
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  8. #8
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I have no issue with her working with the miltary it's more of being paid by the miltary. I mean what if Argus was a branch made by Diana? To deal with the miltary? It's somewhat a private funding by Diana or by something else. True Diana figthing a corrupted member would be nice. I mean on story idea is the fact miltary pays Diana means the miltary thinks they own her causesing the creation of ARGUS.
    Oh, I gotcha.

    So, I'm not an expert on civilian consultants. Never worked with them in my brief stint in the AF, don't think I ever even met one. But as I understand it, that "we pay you so we own you" thing isn't how it works with them. No one actually thinks that (I mean, Im sure *someone* does but they'd be a rare exception, in my experience). Whatever the consultant works on is most definitely owned by the military (lots of NDA's involved and there's no question about who owns that research/information) but the consultant him/herself? Not so much. And most service-people don't really seem to like bringing in civilian consultants in the first place; they're outsiders who don't understand how the military works and can threaten the chain of command (if not national security, depending on the job), they don't really have a "place" in the structure, which makes their involvement a little confusing, so I doubt anyone would consider Diana "military property" even if she was on a long-term consultant contract.

    As for Diana creating Argus.....I dunno. Certainly not as part of the American military complex; no way would a foreign national (even Diana!) be allowed to do such a thing (and why would she create a new branch for the US anyway, right?). If it's something Diana creates on her own then it's basically just a mercenary company and that doesn't feel like Diana either.

    If Event Leviathan gives us some sort of UN sanctioned peacekeeping force akin to Marvel's SHIELD (which some theories posit), then I'd happily accept Diana working with (not FOR) them over an American-based military branch. But whoever the group is, wherever they come from, unless its a strike force from Themyscria they're not going to share Diana's motivations and goals 100% so you're going to run into situations where she's at odds with the organization.
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  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    True. This is why I also like the Holliday girls. I mean they are also supposed to be Diana’s personal army. Diana training would be a good idea. Especially if they are in an environment that they have to protect. Going back to one idea. That Gateway being an actually Gateway has multiple armies. Steve could without knowing to be moved to a branch where magic exist
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  10. #10
    All-New Member Circe's Avatar
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    Totally uncomfortable with the idea of Diana, who values peace and protecting life, working with or for the military. Putting Diana squarely on the side of the US government in general is super reductive to her character (or at least what she means for so many people.) To me, Diana (and the Amazons) may be warriors but are ultimately anti-war (Ares?)... the idea that the US military would be exceptional to her and somehow not agents of Ares is propaganda, full stop, which I hope we are beyond in comics. At least Wonder Woman comics...

    It just seems at odds with the character in 2019.

  11. #11
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Im not sure it can be reductive since it's been a part of her story since her very earliest appearances.

    I totally understand why people would be against her involvement with any governing/military agency. Gods know I have problems of my own with such things and the last twenty years has not done America's military any favors as far as their reputation goes. But I dont think the answer is to cut out such a huge aspect of her narrative and history. Diana has been a part of that world since day one, it's part of who she is whether anyone likes that or not. Would it not be better to tackle the issue head on? I'd much rather read a story where Diana deals with the corruption and war-mongering within that system than a story that removes her from it completely.

    Likewise I'd rather read a story about Clark Kent dealing with the slow death of print and the slanted opinions spewed forth by news media than a story where he just quits the Planet and becomes an accountant.

    Im not saying there aren't problems with the military or how government uses that force. But those are opportunities to explore the problem, I dont see it as an excuse to run away from it.
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  12. #12
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    The thing is that I believe Diana's connection to Argus (or the US military) is a thing of habit and history, but there is really nothing in their character that supports that thing after the Second World War. The same is true for Steve—where I see his permanent connection to the military as damaging to his character.

    I think it's telling that Darwyn Cooke's Diana in New Horizons did a very abrupt and public break with the US during the Vietnam war, and I think his instincts for both story and character were very good there.

    That's why I'd like Diana's origin story complex to include a clear arc for Steve as well, in that he leaves the military. Now, I think a good Ares opening story can leave them as goo friends with Colonel Darnell, and Steve might have some other backdoors contacts into the US government, so they still have some routes for information. And Diana's role as Themysciran envoy means she will have to connect with governments too, if nothing else as a mediator.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    I like Diana as military adjacent, because it allows her to question a lot of what the military does and stands for - both historically and contemporarily. Here’s a skilled warrior and combatant interested in fighting for peace, equality, and hope, that must contend with contemporary politics, diplomacy, and nations and organizations more interested in ideologies of control and domination... That’s a lot to deal with to achieve her goals and manifest and propagate her love and desires for humanity.

    Diana’s very nature is “political” and “subversive” in regards to the status quo and I don’t see how you untangle that from the military at times, and in some stories.

    That’s why I like her and Steve’s relationship with ARGUS so much. It’s a fantastical, quasi-scientific-research-military organization that can integrate the magical, mythical, technological, divine, alien, sci-fi, other-dimensional, metahuman, mutant, mystical, psionic, etc. aspects of their world into Diana’s cultural, anthropological, sociological, psychological, political, etc. milieu and narrative in compelling ways that are fun and unique to speculative fiction.
    Last edited by WonderScott; 08-11-2019 at 02:53 PM.

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The thing is that I believe Diana's connection to Argus (or the US military) is a thing of habit and history, but there is really nothing in their character that supports that thing after the Second World War. The same is true for Steve—where I see his permanent connection to the military as damaging to his character..
    You know what? It's a good idea to take a critical look at elements of a mythos and decide if they're still relevant or if they no longer offer anything to say. I disagree with your assessment, I think Diana working with the military (well, Argus....they're not really military, but comic book military, which is a very different thing) offers plenty of narrative options and is still very much in-line with her characterization (and Steve's for what that's worth). But thank you for reminding me that critical analysis should always be shined on a mythos.

    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I like Diana as military adjacent, because it allows her to question a lot of what the military does and stands for - both historically and contemporarily. Here’s a skilled warrior and combatant interested in fighting for peace, equality, and hope, that must contend with contemporary politics, diplomacy, and nations and organizations more interested in ideologies of control and domination... That’s a lot to deal with to achieve her goals and manifest and propagate her love and desires for humanity.

    Diana’s very nature is “political” and “subversive” in regards to the status quo and I don’t see how you untangle that from the military at times, and in some stories.

    That’s why I like her and Steve’s relationship with ARGUS so much. It’s a fantastical, quasi-scientific-research-military organization that can integrate the magical, mythical, technological, divine, alien, sci-fi, other-dimensional, metahuman, mutant, mystical, psionic, etc. aspects of their world into Diana’s cultural, anthropological, sociological, psychological, political, etc. milieu and narrative in compelling ways that are fun and unique to speculative fiction.
    You've said it better than I could, good sir and/or ma'am. Thank you for being so articulate.
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  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The thing is that I believe Diana's connection to Argus (or the US military) is a thing of habit and history, but there is really nothing in their character that supports that thing after the Second World War. The same is true for Steve—where I see his permanent connection to the military as damaging to his character.
    I unfortunately don't think Steve has been afforded much opportunity to have a character to be damaged by a military connection. As a convenient excuse to get him involved in her adventures and the wider DCU in general (especially the ARGUS incarnation), it's probably one of his main selling points. I feel that there is too much unexplored ground there with modern writing (and in all areas of Steve's life) that removing him from it entirely seems kind of wasteful and creators and fans at this point likely wouldn't agree on where to take him. And I think Diana's world could use some more stability in general.

    I have to agree with Ascended and WonderScott in that seeing Diana and especially Steve deal with all aspects of the system, positive and negative, is more interesting that ditching it. It may even lead to some natural conflict between them, which the characters need.

    Etta needs to not be in that field though. Unlike Steve, the original Etta and versions more in line with that take had personality in abundance and has been given no favors by just hanging around Steve's office place (either in a romantic or platonic capacity). She should be the leader of the Holliday Girls and enter some other field upon graduation.

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