Nightwing's mass media potential is awful.

[REAL]

I pretty much agree with everything Aioros22 and TooFlyToFail said.

.....

Both Batman and the joker play big roles in Jason's story, but that doesn't mean that his story ends with them.

Jason can stand on his own and they are many things that writers can do with him if they actually bother to put their heart into it.

And I don't agree with your last point. While the dynamic between Jason and dick would have been interesting, it is not really necessarily to the story.

Nightwing impact on Jason is related to Batman, but dick himself doesn't have much of impact on Jason personally.

[RobinFan4880]

Dick has a much, much richer history in other media than Jason, who is almost always showcased in the same kind of story (fallen Robin, coming back for revenge). Jason's two biggest claims to fame are that exact story (and if Rumors are to be believed, we're going to see it again for a third time...).

Meanwhile Dick was in the Super Friends, Batman Forever, Batman and Robin, Batman TAS, The Batman, Teen Titans, Young Justice and Teen Titans Go, not to mention all the various games.

[Grayson - The Dark Heir]

So, long story short: Dick Grayson has a lot of potential for appearances in other media but DC has been wasting it. Jason Todd also has a lot of potential, but as of now, DC has only told the same story twice.

I think a lot of DC characters have potential. That doesn't really mean much, guys.

[Aahz]

Without the baggage of "A Death in the Family" (which dooms Jason to die in any incarnation) he would in my opinion be a better choise as Robin than Dick. Since there is more conflict between him and Bruce, and he has his background as crime alley kid has more potential for interesting stories than Dicks Circus background.

Conflict between Bruce and Dick feels imo always very forced and makes usually at least one of them look like a total jerk, with Jason it feels more natural.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

But these thing with the Jason with the Suicide Squad and Justice League are all your own suggestions and have no major story bases while Dick has both been a spy and worked with the JLA on multiple occasions as Nightwing and Batman. The gap in story potential really is not there.

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

Without the baggage of "A Death in the Family" (which dooms Jason to die in any incarnation) he would in my opinion be a better choise as Robin than Dick. Since there is more conflict between him and Bruce, and he has his background as crime alley kid has more potential for interesting stories than Dicks Circus background.

Conflict between Bruce and Dick feels imo always very forced and makes usually at least one of them look like a total jerk, with Jason it feels more natural.

Thst Dynamic would just further ruin Robin, the general audience already saw an antagonist Batman and Robin in the 90's and since then have low opinion of the identity or are not much bothered. I would like to see Robin done right.

[SpiderWing20]

Here's my problem with Dick being a lead in a nutshell: "You like shows with badass martial arts vigilantes who operate a night fighting organized crime and corruption within the system well here's that, but he smiles and has a great ass"

I would love to see Dick in either a Titans franchise or Grayson franchise, but Nightwing itself nuh uh

[Agent Z]

Without the baggage of "A Death in the Family" (which dooms Jason to die in any incarnation) he would in my opinion be a better choise as Robin than Dick. Since there is more conflict between him and Bruce, and he has his background as crime alley kid has more potential for interesting stories than Dicks Circus background.

Conflict between Bruce and Dick feels imo always very forced and makes usually at least one of them look like a total jerk, with Jason it feels more natural.

I'd argue that conflict between Bruce and Jason is more often than not one-sided with Jason being made into a strawman to make Bruce seem in the right. Under the Red Hood for instance kind of falls apart as you realize that we're only seeing Jason as a villain because he's angry at the Joker being allowed to run rampant by Bruce.

[Badou]

It's a complicated issue. The big difference between Red Hood and Nightwing is that Red Hood occupies a different role in the Batman universe than Nightwing. It's a role that no other character really fills and can fluctuate between villain, anti-hero, and ally very easily making it easier to center stories around his character, which gives him more potential in that role.

Nightwing doesn't have that flexibility. He's just a hero. The core problem with that, and is a problem that has stuck with the character for a long time, is that he isn't Robin or Batman. Nightwing is always going to be a step below Robin and Batman because those are iconic roles that have a reach well beyond Nightwing's. There is no real value in doing a Nightwing story when it is easier and more profitable to make a Robin or Batman one when they are all doing the same things. So Nightwing falls into the role of just being a supporting character over and over again and it is difficult to center stories around him. Basically Dick is a less popular character as Nightwing than he was as Robin or would be as Batman.

There are some other problems with the Nightwing identity that extend beyond what role he plays in the universe, like the Nightwing name and costume. No one really knows what a "Nightwing" is and it is too difficult to explain the obscure Superman history with the name, especially in other media where Superman might not even be around. Things like the Jason/Red Hood/Joker name connection is very easy to explain. Then the costume is just a black suit with blue/red lines. You can't market blue lines which is why in other media they gave him that blue bird symbol to try and make him a bit more visually marketable and it has sort of stuck since the 90s animated series. So he has these two different looks but both don't really catch people's eye. They are just very basic costumes without any traits that make him stand out.

And another problem has been direction. He's the Robin that grew up, but unfortunately outside of that no one has figured out what to do with Nightwing's character. He's too old to be in the Teen Titans now and he will never be in the Justice League because Batman is there. He also isn't Batman's sidekick anymore so he is just another solo hero in a medium filled with solo heroes. Now he is competing against other characters, like Spider-man and Daredevil, that do what Nightwing wants to do but far better. He's been a circus performer, a student, a cop, a museum curator, a male model, a bartender, owner of Haly's circus, worker for Wayne Industries, and a spy. He's never found a solid direction the way Daredevil is a lawyer, Spider-man is a student who wants to become a scientist that funds himself by being a photographer, or how Superman is a reporter. They are constantly trying things hoping something eventually works to start building from.

There are probably other factors but these to me feel like the major ones that have really made it difficult for Nightwing to catch on and grow into something that people would want to use more outside of comics.

[SmokeMonster]

I think the biggest problem with Nightwing is his name. To the uninitiated (such as the public in the story) it doesn't mean or evoke anything and just comes across as trying to sound cool by putting two 'cool' words together, which when coupled with his oh so cool hairdo, it just makes the whole thing kinda lame in my opinion.

[Agent Z]

I think the biggest problem with Nightwing is his name. To the uninitiated (such as the public in the story) it doesn't mean or evoke anything and just comes across as trying to sound cool by putting two 'cool' words together, which when coupled with his oh so cool hairdo, it just makes the whole thing kinda lame in my opinion.

And names like Red Hood, or even Superman don't?

[Punisher007]

Yeah the name is not a problem, like at all.

[WonderNight]

And names like Red Hood, or even Superman don't?

the name does not matter, you just have put a face behind the brand. i mean what did the name xbox mean before 2001 or pokemon before the 90s?

[Agent Z]

It's a complicated issue. The big difference between Red Hood and Nightwing is that Red Hood occupies a different role in the Batman universe than Nightwing. It's a role that no other character really fills and can fluctuate between villain, anti-hero, and ally very easily making it easier to center stories around his character, which gives him more potential in that role.

Nightwing doesn't have that flexibility.

He's been the leader of the Titans and the Justice League on at least two occasions. He's served as a mentor figure for young superheroes and a liason between younger and older generations. He's currently a spy. Jason has onyl fulfilled the roles of villain and antihero so far.

It's a complicated issue. The big difference between Red Hood and Nightwing is that Red Hood occupies a different role in the Batman universe than Nightwing. It's a role that no other character really fills and can fluctuate between villain, anti-hero, and ally very easily making it easier to center stories around his character, which gives him more potential in that role.



There are some other problems with the Nightwing identity that extend beyond what role he plays in the universe, like the Nightwing name and costume. No one really knows what a "Nightwing" is and it is too difficult to explain the obscure Superman history with the name, especially in other media where Superman might not even be around. Things like the Jason/Red Hood/Joker name connection is very easy to explain. Then the costume is just a black suit with blue/red lines. You can't market blue lines which is why in other media they gave him that blue bird symbol to try and make him a bit more visually marketable and it has sort of stuck since the 90s animated series. So he has these two different looks but both don't really catch people's eye. They are just very basic costumes without any traits that make him stand out.

It refers to the color of his suit (night=black) and his aerial/bird motif. It's really not that complicated. Also, Joker being the Red Hood is one of his numerous origins. And quite frankly I have to question why Jason would take on a former moniker of the man who killed him.

Also, Jason's costume isn't that much original.

And another problem has been direction. He's the Robin that grew up, but unfortunately outside of that no one has figured out what to do with Nightwing's character. He's too old to be in the Teen Titans now and he will never be in the Justice League because Batman is there. He also isn't Batman's sidekick anymore so he is just another solo hero in a medium filled with solo heroes. Now he is competing against other characters, like Spider-man and Daredevil, that do what Nightwing wants to do but far better. He's been a circus performer, a student, a cop, a museum curator, a male model, a bartender, owner of Haly's circus, worker for Wayne Industries, and a spy. He's never found a solid direction the way Daredevil is a lawyer, Spider-man is a student who wants to become a scientist that funds himself by being a photographer, or how Superman is a reporter. They are constantly trying things hoping something eventually works to start building from.

There are probably other factors but these to me feel like the major ones that have really made it difficult for Nightwing to catch on and grow into something that people would want to use more outside of comics.

Doesn't this disprove your earlier claim that Dick isn't as flexible a character as Jason?

[Badou]

He's been the leader of the Titans and the Justice League on at least two occasions. He's served as a mentor figure for young superheroes and a liason between younger and older generations. He's currently a spy. Jason has onyl fulfilled the roles of villain and antihero so far.

The point of the thread was "mass media". Of course in the comics Dick has done a lot more, but in terms of adapting these characters to movies, video games, television and so on Red Hood is easier because of the type of character he is. No one is going to make video game centered around Nightwing or make a movie centered around him. Since it would just be easier to use Batman or Robin as they fill the same role but are much more popular than Nightwing. Red Hood is something different from those other characters which makes his path to other media easier.

It refers to the color of his suit (night=black) and his aerial/bird motif. It's really not that complicated. Also, Joker being the Red Hood is one of his numerous origins. And quite frankly I have to question why Jason would take on a former moniker of the man who killed him.

Also, Jason's costume isn't that much original.

He had the name well before there was any black on the costume or it had a aerial/bird motif. So I don't really get where you are referencing that. It was blue because the original Nightwing design was blue. Plus it is a little weird to come up with a suit then give yourself a name based off the suit you made. Usually you have a name or identity first and the suit reflects that. And Jason took the name Red Hood to mess with Bruce because he was angry at him.

Doesn't this disprove your earlier claim that Dick isn't as flexible a character as Jason?

Flexibility isn't the same as not having a consistent direction. Dick not having a direction as Nightwing has been a big problem for the character.