Which Wonder Woman Villains Should Have Sympathetic Traits? Which Should Not?

[Agent Z]

Title says it all. List the Wonder Woman villains you think should have sympathetic traits and those you think should not. You can use characters that are already sympathetic or add/subtract sympathetic traits from some depending on how you feel.

Sympathetic

Silver Swan - Whether it's Vanessa, Valerie or Helen, all have similar premises of a young woman being taken advantage of.

Medusa - There's already precedent in her backstory and I'd have her become Diana's friend later on. What they'd do about the Olympians I'm not sure.

Clea - Instead of an Atlantean misandrist, have her come from a family that was wronged by the Atlantean royals in the past.

Circe - I proposed an idea for such a backstory in the thread about Circe as seen here

My idea for a Circe story. Remember the part in the Odyssey where Odyseus and his men stumble across Circe's island and get turned into animals? I'd add a twist to that. Odyseus and his men do find the island but instead are given shelter and food by Circe who has no ill intentions toward them. However, Odyseus drugs Circe and ribs her home and kills her daughter Lyra. On their way, some of Odyseus' men consume a plant that was on Circe's island which turns them into beasts and kill some of the men who weren't turned. This betrayal by Odyseus as well as the following slander would be what sets Circe on a path to darkness. She'd also try to appeal to the Amazons as both are women who've been shunned and slandered by the world if men.

So what do you guys think?

Unsympathetic

Dr. Psycho - I'd also remove him being a little person. He'd be similar to Kilgrave from Jessica Jones.

Theseus - He'd take Heracles' place as the despoiler of the Amazons.

Assuming they'd be used as villains, Zeus, Poseidon and Apollo.

Veronica Cale - I'm kind of torn between her having some sympathetic traits and her having none tbh.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. What are yours?

[Outside_85]

Sympathetic:
Cheetah- For her messed up relationship with the god that cursed her.
Dr. Psycho- Is what he is because of his physical disability, tries to hide the pain by inflicting it on others. (Use JMS's version that just poses as a normal guy)
Medusa- Inbuilt in most of her origins.

Unsympathetic:
Circe- A mix of massive ego, illusions grandeur and colossal amount of power, she should be the exact opposite of what Diana is.
Veronica Cale- Like Luthor, brilliant, driven, lacks empathy.
Dr. Cyber- She's chosen to be a machine rather than human, and follows that kind of logic to it's end.

The gods I would rather remain above the notion of whenever they are worthy of sympathy or not.

[mathew101281]

Sympathetic

Cheetah: Classic mythic archetype of a character cursed to become a monster due to her own hubris.
Circe: An immortal being that's been crapped on for so long and by so many people that she has lost all sense of empathy.
Silver Swan: by the nature of her origin she's a victim of others.
Unsympathetic
Ares: the living embodiment of carnage and bloodshed.
Strife: she's strife

[Lex Luthor]

Circe shouldn't have sympathetic traits she should be allowed to be ruthless and evil and an example of a campy villainess without a sad back story and no motivations certainly not one that involves being hurt by men or having a child taken away or not feeling pretty enough i feel ww has enough of those she should just be unapologetically evil in her own desire for power.

Ares shouldn't be sympathetic either ofc

Cheetah should be someone trying to recover but I don't think it should be pretrayed in a way that strips her of agency

Veronica Cale shouldn't be sympathetic

Medusa can be depending how you write her I guess I always thought she didn't deserve the beheading she got in the myths

Dr psycho shouldn't be sympathetic


I just think we should be careful as to 1. Not make most of the women villains sympathetic or have stereotypical backgrounds and take away their own complicated ideas etc
2. Not conflate "not being sympathetic" with "not deserving of rehabilitation"

[Agent Z]

I'd add Heracles as a sympathetic antagonist. In my version, Theseus would have been the one behind the attack on Themyscira. Heracles would be someone who suffered from berserker rages which his "friends" would take advantage of. In battle, or anything else, he'd be used as more like an attack dog.

This also shows how the toxic, overly masculine environment in which Heracles was raised also negatively impacts men.

[Darius]

Honestly I'd say none of her key villains should have too much "sympathetic" back story, save that for her side villains or the minion types who work for the truly evil leaders

Cheetah ... avatar of an evil god, ruthless killer, hates Diana because Diana is sympathetic and Cheetah thinks that makes her weak
Circe ... complete hedonist with zero moral center. Takes her pleasures in creating man-animal slaves and loves to toy with her enemies. I see her as a more behind the scenes villain who only confronts Diana after she's weakened her emotionally etc..
Ares ... he becomes more powerful the more people kill each other, incarnation of Evil ... basically the devil
Dr. Psycho ... misogynist pig who uses his mental powers to tear down any woman. Fixates on Diana

Minions who can be sympathetic:

Giganta ... Circe's "daughter" who Circe evolved from an ape baby into a powerful tool. Discover later that her true father was one of Circe's manimals. Mentally abused/dominated by Circe

Silver Swan ... Dr. Psycho's "girlfriend" mentally broken by Psycho and given her powers by his psychoplasm. Programmed to destroy Diana.

Dr. Cyber ... Minion of Ares. More robot than woman, but what's left of her humanity can be a sad back story.
Strife ... she isn't bad, she's just drawn that way? Ares sometimes willing sister-accomplice, but given her nature she is prone to turn the tables and side with Diana just to keep the strife going (she doesn't really want either Diana or Ares to ever WIN because she thrives on their constant conflict, thus she tips the scales in favor of one or the other depending on the situation).

[Aioros22]

I'd add Heracles as a sympathetic antagonist. In my version, Theseus would have been the one behind the attack on Themyscira. Heracles would be someone who suffered from berserker rages which his "friends" would take advantage of. In battle, or anything else, he'd be used as more like an attack dog.

This also shows how the toxic, overly masculine environment in which Heracles was raised also negatively impacts men.

I think you`re using too many males to make the females sympathetic in direct contrast. Your version of Heracles only works if he`s made into a caricature to be made a point. That`s probably what you`re aiming and it may be effective but I find it too in the nose.

[Baseman]

I think you`re using too many males to make the females sympathetic in direct contrast. Your version of Heracles only works if he`s made into a caricature to be made a point. That`s probably what you`re aiming and it may be effective but I find it too in the nose.

Well didn't Hera made Heracles crazy at one point in the original myths? Obviously this wouldn't work with Hera in Wonderwoman .But having a woman takes advantage of his rages can be a a sublte statement about how Woman sometimes take advantage of said culture.

Plus we get a loose nod to the original myths for people who care about that soft of thing

[Carabas]

All decent villains should have sympathetic traits. No, plot devices like Doomsday aren't decent villains.

Most villains, despite having sympathetic traits, sould not actually be sympathetic though.

[Aioros22]

Well didn't Hera made Heracles crazy at one point in the original myths? Obviously this wouldn't work with Hera in Wonderwoman .But having a woman takes advantage of his rages can be a a sublte statement about how Woman sometimes take advantage of said culture.

Plus we get a loose nod to the original myths for people who care about that soft of thing

Depends on the level of balance with the idea. If you pushed it constantly it would become a caricature.

[Agent Z]

Depends on the level of balance with the idea. If you pushed it constantly it would become a caricature.

I'm not sure what you mean. Could you explain in further detail please?

[Agent Z]

So I was checking out the Fate/Stay Night wiki and found this out in their entry for their version of Medusa

"The legend of Medusa is different than her actual life. She was said to be a half-human, half-god female beast often portrayed with the form of a snake. Originally she was an Earth Goddess (大地の女神, Daichi no Megami?).[7] While all originally beautiful women, she and her sisters were hated by Poseidon's wife because of his love for them. Athena, jealous of their beautiful hair, transformed them into demons. Secluding themselves in a lightless temple on the Shapeless Isle, they only attacked humans with a reason. Eventually, as a victim of the gods' unreasonable actions, she was to have her head cut off on their whim. Defeated by Perseus by reflecting her petrification back at her with his mirror-like shield, Pegasus, the son of Poseidon, was said to have sprung from the blood of her headless neck."

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Rider_(Fate/stay_night)

Would anyone like to see something like this in the WW comic? Like maybe Diana helps her remember her status as a Goddess and brings it back?

[SiegePerilous02]

Of Diana's major villains, I think Circe, Ares, Dr. Psycho and Dr. Poison should be the ones that aren't even remotely sympathetic. Dr. Cyber too if anyone decides to do anything with her.

Cheetah is close behind. No matter which version, Priscilla or Barbara, she can have some sympathetic traits that allow us to empathize with her, but she should ultimately be responsible for her own problems. It's hard to feel too bad for someone who sold their soul to a God by killing someone else and then having it come back around to bite them in the ass.

Angle Man is a thief, so he can be a nuisance, but doesn't need to be especially heinous. The Swans can be purely sympathetic, as they've always been depicted as being tools used by other, more malevolent villains. Of the Swans, Alexandros had the most agency in her transformation due to her greed and vanity, so of the Silver Swan she can be the least sympathetic.

Giganta is a weird case, as she has had moments of being affable (Simone's brief use of her) and even endearing/cute (JLU). She may best be equated to the Juggernaut (at least Claremont's version): a thug, but one who has humanized traits, can get along with the heroes if she has to, and doesn't have any overly evil aspirations beyond money. Like Juggs pausing in the middle of a fight with the X-Men to fanboy over Dazzler.

As for the rest...they've have to be used and given actual characterizations to determine anything. I think some of her lesser known foes (like the Mask, Zara, Blue Snowman, etc.) should be revamped and used a couple times before Diana ultimately reforms them. That way, we can see her succeed at what she was created to do, while keeping the major foes intact so she has a stable rogues gallery to work with.

[Aioros22]

I'm not sure what you mean. Could you explain in further detail please?

If you only present him from that angle he`s nothing short of a loose cannon to be used upon. That`s not very three dimensional.

[Agent Z]

If you only present him from that angle he`s nothing short of a loose cannon to be used upon. That`s not very three dimensional.

Well obviously yes, he shouldn't be used that way only. Plus, Theseus or whoever is manipulating him would be the real villains anyway.