Should Jeff Lemire out Storm as LGBT?

[yogaflame]

The co-founder of the Black Panthers, Huey Newton, saw gay rights, women's rights, labor rights and black rights as all inextricably connected. David Munroe, Ororo's father, was the son of Black Panthers.

http://www.newnownext.com/huey-newto...s-gay/07/2015/

As for Ororo's mother, N'Dare, it is impossible to speak on her culture's beliefs as her culture has never been adequately explored or defined. That said, as an ancient, primordial people going back the dawn of mankind, it is safe to say they were not Christian or Muslim, which is where the vast majority of homophobia in Africa originates from(also anti-colonialism, as there have been many instances of male Europeans in various factions raping young African boys, so some see homosexuality as a form of Western colonialism/oppression). That said, there are many instances of native African cultures that embraced homosexuality and various forms of transgenderism/gender roles/identity.

http://76crimes.com/2014/01/30/21-va...homosexuality/

Storm is not Christian. She does not bow to any of its tenets. She is pagan, she worships a Goddess as manifest in nature. She is a nudist and in her original characterization, very distrustful of Western culture in general.

Her relationship with Yukio was a watershed in her development and it takes but the smallest leap to see her love for Yukio included a sexual component(fun fact, no Marvel comic character has ever been depicted with their genitals in or around another character's genitals/any other orifice, so none of their sexual activities are strictly speaking canon).

Speaking of canon, for all these pages of exchange, I don't see much in the way of actual comic panels. Let's examine the evidence...





"...the tug on her heartstrings is too strong. The dream, too welcome." No one feels that way about 'their friend'.



Why would T'Challa, a very smart and self-assured man, have anxiety about Yukio offering Ororo her fruit, if there was no sexual component to their relationship?

As it stands, it's all subtext, as in the old Claremont run, same sex relations were explicitly forbidden, and more modern writers have only danced around the issue. But it really is crazy to see so called Storm fans, Storm a character who has always pushed social norms to the side in her very being not to mention her standing up for all oppressed peoples, spitting on the very possibility that Ororo loved a woman.

[aja_christopher]

There seems to be a push from a certain part of the fanbase to make Storm a bisexual lesbian (and to make most characters bisexual, it seems). With Storm being the most prominent black character in all of comicbook history, regardless of the company's name, and the only black character to attain the prominence she has (with T'challa being perhaps the only second place followed by a huge gap before you can bring up anyone else), I think this LGBT thing should not be applied to Storm (or Panther). Its very controversal and it would make the character less marketable in many ways as it would restrict the audiences she could potentially appeal to. To be black, female and LGBT would be trying to make her the ultimate minority and it would definitely hold her back in potential future endeavors like say a possible successful solo movie.

Storm has never been intimate with Yukio. To say otherwise is wishful thinking on the part of some people, to be honest. She has only been sexually affectionate with men and she has a strong track record with this (Arkon, Dr. Doom, Loki, Forge, T'challa, Khan, Wolverine (ugh!), Nightcrawler...) A bisexual Storm would have worked with an alternate reality version of the character and nobody would have complained about that (an example of this would have been if Marvel had introduced the Ultimate reality incarnation of the character as bisexual from the start).

I speak merely factually on this matter. I do not hate gays (or anyone, for that matter). To be honest, of everything in the Bible, the one thing I wish most that were not the case is homosexuality being categorized as a sin. However, much as I wish otherwise, it does not alter the facts in this matter. Gay people just want to be able to love and be loved just like anybody else. Its a tough pill to swallow, but its reality. God is real and many people will prioritize what he says above all else.

Ignoring all of the generalized commentary about how "blacks" think and behave, I don't see any reason why Storm needs to be a "black" role model (and a female role model), but not an "LGBT" role model.

To say she can represent one group but not another to me smacks of a sense of "ownership" as if the character should not grow and evolve as the story might dictate. There is no proof that Storm and Yukio were never intimate -- a lot happens "off-panel" that the readers are never made aware of until later in a character's history -- so you can't speak "factually" when you claim that they were "never intimate". You can say argue that we've never seen them be intimate, but not that they were never intimate.

My opinion is that it might be a good way to explore the fact that some people are attracted to those of the opposite sex, but only act upon it with very specific individuals. In Storm's case, she was attracted to Yukio's free spirit and -- maybe after a few rounds of sake and a night out on the town -- found herself attracted to Yukio physically and decided to act upon said feelings accordingly.

Does this mean that she is attracted to women in general? Possibly, but not to where she might feel sexually attracted to them, as she (hypothetically) is to Yukio. I'd argue that the same could be said for any character who might "experiment" with their sexuality, but still identify as "straight", "gay" or otherwise. After all, who knows what Remy or Illyana might do when no one is looking, or whether Warren might have a "wild one night stand" in his past that may have involved both male and female partners?

If anything, I'd go with Psylocke being further developed as "bi" as it's already canon, but I don't see where one should have to choose, as if there is some quota on how many "black", "gay", "female", etc, characters there have to be in the X-Books.

[RLAAMJR.]

The co-founder of the Black Panthers, Huey Newton, saw gay rights, women's rights, labor rights and black rights as all inextricably connected. David Munroe, Ororo's father, was the son of Black Panthers.

http://www.newnownext.com/huey-newto...s-gay/07/2015/

As for Ororo's mother, N'Dare, it is impossible to speak on her culture's beliefs as her culture has never been adequately explored or defined. That said, as an ancient, primordial people going back the dawn of mankind, it is safe to say they were not Christian or Muslim, which is where the vast majority of homophobia in Africa originates from(also anti-colonialism, as there have been many instances of male Europeans in various factions raping young African boys, so some see homosexuality as a form of Western colonialism/oppression). That said, there are many instances of native African cultures that embraced homosexuality and various forms of transgenderism/gender roles/identity.

http://76crimes.com/2014/01/30/21-va...homosexuality/

Storm is not Christian. She does not bow to any of its tenets. She is pagan, she worships a Goddess as manifest in nature. She is a nudist and in her original characterization, very distrustful of Western culture in general.

Her relationship with Yukio was a watershed in her development and it takes but the smallest leap to see her love for Yukio included a sexual component(fun fact, no Marvel comic character has ever been depicted with their genitals in or around another character's genitals/any other orifice, so none of their sexual activities are strictly speaking canon).

Speaking of canon, for all these pages of exchange, I don't see much in the way of actual comic panels. Let's examine the evidence...





"...the tug on her heartstrings is too strong. The dream, too welcome." No one feels that way about 'their friend'.



Why would T'Challa, a very smart and self-assured man, have anxiety about Yukio offering Ororo her fruit, if there was no sexual component to their relationship?

As it stands, it's all subtext, as in the old Claremont run, same sex relations were explicitly forbidden, and more modern writers have only danced around the issue. But it really is crazy to see so called Storm fans, Storm a character who has always pushed social norms to the side in her very being not to mention her standing up for all oppressed peoples, spitting on the very possibility that Ororo loved a woman.

possibility only but it's not a fact.

The first scan is Yukio represents freedom and they're bestfriends, that's why the dream is too welcome.
The second image is nothing really.

If we add something about the scans, then there is a possibility too to Superman , Batman, Captain America, Iron Man, etc too

[MyriVerse]

Used to want her with Yukio, but not after that last story with Yukio in it. Ro's too good for her.

But I'd say bi.

I really doubt she would have been allowed to be open about her sexuality (if LGBT) in Egypt or Kenya, the latter having one of the highest amounts of homophobia in the world.

[MYCMTSC]

Storm being pansexual just fits. She fit the bill for that community long before I started hearing it used frequently, but I would still think she would reject it as a label.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Ignoring all of the generalized commentary about how "blacks" think and behave, I don't see any reason why Storm needs to be a "black" role model (and a female role model), but not an "LGBT" role model.

To say she can represent one group but not another to me smacks of a sense of "ownership" as if the character should not grow and evolve as the story might dictate. There is no proof that Storm and Yukio were never intimate -- a lot happens "off-panel" that the readers are never made aware of until later in a character's history -- so you can't speak "factually" when you claim that they were "never intimate". You can say argue that we've never seen them be intimate, but not that they were never intimate.

My opinion is that it might be a good way to explore the fact that some people are attracted to those of the opposite sex, but only act upon it with very specific individuals. In Storm's case, she was attracted to Yukio's free spirit and -- maybe after a few rounds of sake and a night out on the town -- found herself attracted to Yukio physically and decided to act upon said feelings accordingly.

Does this mean that she is attracted to women in general? Possibly, but not to where she might feel sexually attracted to them, as she (hypothetically) is to Yukio. I'd argue that the same could be said for any character who might "experiment" with their sexuality, but still identify as "straight", "gay" or otherwise. After all, who knows what Remy or Illyana might do when no one is looking, or whether Warren might have a "wild one night stand" in his past that may have involved both male and female partners?

If anything, I'd go with Psylocke being further developed as "bi" as it's already canon, but I don't see where one should have to choose, as if there is some quota on how many "black", "gay", "female", etc, characters there have to be in the X-Books.

I wouldn't think that technically a one night stand with Cluster makes Betsy bi, if anything it was an experiment that Betsy decided not to go any further with and hasn't had any interest since, so canon for Betsy is straight. Unless otherwise shown the characters are all straight, in the case of Storm it's been strongly hinted that she's bi or at least has very strong feelings for certain women, though CC was notorious for putting that kind of thing in comics and such...

The scene with Yukio and the grapes could show her feelings for Yukio or just how BP sees their friendship...

[krazijoe]

Why?
10 char

[aja_christopher]

I wouldn't think that technically a one night stand with Cluster makes Betsy bi, if anything it was an experiment that Betsy decided not to go any further with and hasn't had any interest since, so canon for Betsy is straight. Unless otherwise shown the characters are all straight, in the case of Storm it's been strongly hinted that she's bi or at least has very strong feelings for certain women, though CC was notorious for putting that kind of thing in comics and such.

Which only further proves my point about "experimentation" and the inefficiency of sexual labels.

My point is that Psylocke has been shown "on-panel" to be sexually attracted to at least one female, which leaves the door open for further exploration of said topic (i.e. bisexuality).

For all we know, however, Kitty is equally "bi" (having possibly experimented with Illyana in the past -- and maybe even "off-panel" in the present) or even Remy or Logan, both of whom have been cited as potentially bisexual by writers Claremont and (James) Asmus respectively.

-------

"It’s true that I was interested in revealing Gambit to be bisexual in our series – with us first seeing him seduce a man on one of his missions, and soon thereafter meeting a member of the thieves guild Gambit previously had a more significant relationship with in his pre-X-Men debut. I never got past pitching the first part, though, as word came down we wouldn’t be redefining the character as such.

A few important disclaimers, though… first, I have no idea how high or low on the totem pole that decision was made, or for what reasons – but my editor on the book was the fabulous Daniel Ketcham who is an out man and prominent voice for LBGT diversity in comics. Though the memory is hazy (I pitched a LOT of different ideas for that book) I don’t think he was keen on the idea just from a practical / story stand point. And as I mentioned, I had lots of different concepts I was happy to explore – so in fairness, the No wasn’t something I fought against. And in hindsight, maybe that pitch was too half-baked?

Either way, we never did anything to go against the idea he’s bisexual. So maybe someone else will craft that story?" -- James Asmus

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/08/...-asmus-speaks/

------

All that said, there's really no way to say who is and who is not "really" LGBT in the X-Books given the fact that only recently has said option been (relatively) acceptable to both editors and fans; thus, to me it seems a bit silly to argue about "past history" when said history is often "closeted" due to outright homophobia and bigotry.

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that ANY of these characters are LGBT... just that the arguments against them being LGBT based primarily on "history" only take into account what we are shown on panel, which is very limited given the entire scope of these characters (theoretical) lives.

[rutog98]

The co-founder of the Black Panthers, Huey Newton, saw gay rights, women's rights, labor rights and black rights as all inextricably connected. David Munroe, Ororo's father, was the son of Black Panthers.

http://www.newnownext.com/huey-newto...s-gay/07/2015/

As for Ororo's mother, N'Dare, it is impossible to speak on her culture's beliefs as her culture has never been adequately explored or defined. That said, as an ancient, primordial people going back the dawn of mankind, it is safe to say they were not Christian or Muslim, which is where the vast majority of homophobia in Africa originates from(also anti-colonialism, as there have been many instances of male Europeans in various factions raping young African boys, so some see homosexuality as a form of Western colonialism/oppression). That said, there are many instances of native African cultures that embraced homosexuality and various forms of transgenderism/gender roles/identity.

http://76crimes.com/2014/01/30/21-va...homosexuality/

Storm is not Christian. She does not bow to any of its tenets. She is pagan, she worships a Goddess as manifest in nature. She is a nudist and in her original characterization, very distrustful of Western culture in general.

Her relationship with Yukio was a watershed in her development and it takes but the smallest leap to see her love for Yukio included a sexual component(fun fact, no Marvel comic character has ever been depicted with their genitals in or around another character's genitals/any other orifice, so none of their sexual activities are strictly speaking canon).

Speaking of canon, for all these pages of exchange, I don't see much in the way of actual comic panels. Let's examine the evidence...





"...the tug on her heartstrings is too strong. The dream, too welcome." No one feels that way about 'their friend'.



Why would T'Challa, a very smart and self-assured man, have anxiety about Yukio offering Ororo her fruit, if there was no sexual component to their relationship?

As it stands, it's all subtext, as in the old Claremont run, same sex relations were explicitly forbidden, and more modern writers have only danced around the issue. But it really is crazy to see so called Storm fans, Storm a character who has always pushed social norms to the side in her very being not to mention her standing up for all oppressed peoples, spitting on the very possibility that Ororo loved a woman.

As ever, a very intelligent post, Yogaflame. Now, onto your points:

1) Huey Newton was an outlier in his support for gay rights. That most certainly was not the focus of the Black Panthers movement or the Civil Rights movement.

2) You bring up a good point about the vagueness of the religion Storm's ancestral bloodline going back to the dawn of history. That said, for me, the issue is bigger than that. I am talking about marketing this character to real life consumers and maximizing her potential for popularity and success. The various Black cultures of the world today that make up Storm's ancestry are overwhelmingly against the gay agenda. They take a hardline religious view on it. While I am not saying that Storm should be made a Christian (she's not), there are certain realities that one must adhere to if you want to see certain dreams come to fruition. I want to see Storm more in the forefront in the X-Men movies. I want to see her get a series of solo movies. The propensity of these things coming to fruition will diminish if she is made into a bisexual no matter the justification one may try and offer for doing that that. This is the case since many of the cultures around the world today do not support this agenda. Its too polarizing and you need those dollars for any kind of product a company is trying to sell to succeed. Those dollars are even more important when the lead character of a solo movie franchise is both black and a female. Adding the gay thing to her would diminish her potential for success.

3) In the first scan you bring up with Yukio, there is no sexuality there. You are reading that into the scene as subtext. I see something else there that is more consistent with actual canon. Yukio represented freedom for Storm. Up to the point she met Yukio, Storm was a caged bird imprisoned by her emotions ever since her powers manifested. This was the case since the weather echoes her emotional state of being. Yukio's "devil may care" attitude infected Storm and Ororo discovered emotional depths that she never even realized she had. Once tapped into, she revelled in this new depth. Storm's desire to be free is a recurring motif for Storm's character. It was that bid for freedom while she was trapped in the form of a chrome statue in Uncanny 146 that created the need for ultimate, unlimited power and unleashed the Roguestorm within her. She's claustrophobic. When placed in tight spaces, she yearns for freedom. When she flies through the air, when she uses her powers, she feels free. When she cuts loose with her powers, she feels free and she actually craves that more. Her greatest joy actually comes from using her powers unrestrained. This aspect of her being actually scares Storm. She has it in her to cause untold damage and revel in it which terrifies her. While she cages up her emotions and desires to prevent this from happening, it is her hearts darkest and most secret desire to cut loose. Yukio's influence taught Storm to confront and embrace that part of herself rather than to always run away from it and fear it. This is why Storm values her friendship with Yukio so much. Yukio taught her to let go and let loose. Yukio's lesson to Storm was to not be so uptight and live a little. Enjoy every moment of your life and live it to its fullest. This is what Storm had been missing in her life and what she had always secretly craved, though unknowingly so. Again, there was nothing sexual here.

Regarding the second panel, that was an illusionary world where Storm's mind was being manipulated by Psycho-Man. She eventually asserted her willpower and broke free of that fantasy world.

4) This last point I am about to make I only take time to do so in response to your assertion that Christianity breeds homophobia. A phobia is a fear of something. I would not say that Christians are "homophobic" (though some may be and need to work on that, not all Christians are), but merely they disagree with it on a biblical principle. The Bible teaches in the book of Romans Chapter 1 (so this is under the new covenant) that to even approve of homosexual activity is also a sin (it should be noted that homosexual behavior is not the only thing on this list that is a sin to approve of, but so is approving of idolatry, fornication, adultery, backstabbing, etc.). While this is the case, the Bible also teaches one to love the sinner, but hate the sin/act just as God does and just as Jesus did. Now, there are some Christians who go too far with this and even advocate violence/death against gays and they don't have a good understanding of the Bible when they make such assertions. While it is true that under the old covenant, PRACTICING homosexuals were put to death (there is no biblical sin in having the orientation, only in acting on it), under the new convenant, Jesus brought grace and the penalty for sexual sin was no longer death. Disagreeing with something is not necessarily being phobic about it, otherwise, you'd have to say that Christians are phobic about people who practice any religion contrary to the Bible which is not true. (I make this comparison here because the chapter I've cited in the Book of Romans where it says approving of homosexual behavior is a sin would also apply to appoving the practice of any other religion outside of Christianity.) Christians can have friends from various walks of life and not betray their own Christian beliefs in the process. Again, make no mistake about what I'm saying, there are certainly phobic people out there like gay bashers, for example. People who do things like that need to be prosecuted.

[VilotorioFabiano]

2) You keep bringing up how having a gay character as a lead in a movie would be a marketing problem and you want the movie to make tons of money... That's exactly what racist people say when they choose to ignore black characters as leads. They claim mainstream audiences wouldn't want to watch a black lead much less a black-centric story. Why are you using the same argument against another minority group?

And please stop saying the "gay agenda." So ignorant.

4) The bible also condones slavery of black people. You keep bringing up people are against homosexuality because of the bible. I guess that means you're ok with people who claim black people should be slaves? So tired of people cherry picking certain parts of the bible while ignoring the parts that affect them on a daily basis. Even worse when it's another minority group trying to suppress another minority group.

[rutog98]

2) You keep bringing up how having a gay character as a lead in a movie would be a marketing problem and you want the movie to make tons of money... That's exactly what racist people say when they choose to ignore black characters as leads. They claim mainstream audiences wouldn't want to watch a black lead much less a black-centric story. Why are you using the same argument against another minority group?

And please stop saying the "gay agenda." So ignorant.

4) The bible also condones slavery of black people. You keep bringing up people are against homosexuality because of the bible. I guess that means you're ok with people who claim black people should be slaves? So tired of people cherry picking certain parts of the bible while ignoring the parts that affect them on a daily basis. Even worse when it's another minority group trying to suppress another minority group.

Oh, my, where to begin:

1) The fact is doing a solo superhero movie where the hero character is a gay black female WOULD be bad for sales. Say what you will, but that is reality. This is a very polarizing issue in which many people stand strongly against. The fact that Storm is both female and black would already diminish the sales of such a movie in some countries (the US included), but adding gay to the list would hurt the sales even more as it would go against the cultures and belief systems of far too many peoples.

2) "Gay genda" is a term used by the LGBT community and LGBT activists, so it is not "ignorant".

3) The Bible does not condone the slavery of Black people, lol! That statement is grossly inaccurate and nowhere in the Bible will you see that. As a matter of fact, Moses married an Ethoipian woman. When Aaron and Mariam challenged Moses's leadership because of his marriage to a foriegn woman, God rebuked them for challenging Moses and cursed Mariam with Leprosy. (I may be misspelling Mariam's name). This was in either Numbers 11 or 12. Furthermore, under the old covenant, where it goes into depths about slavery, it was punishable by death to capture another human being. More, if that captured human was sold, any person found with that captured human was likewise put to death. The Bible is strongly against forced slavery. You also forget that God ended up killing Pharaoh for enslaving the Hebrews in the day of Moses. The kind of slavery enacted upon Blacks in the United States echoes the kind where Blacks were captured and forced into slavery against their will similar to the day of Moses when the Hebrews were enslaved. Some examples of when slavery was permissable include" (1) if one man owes a huge debt to another, he can work off the debt as a slave, (2) say a man can't take care of himself and his family, they can work as slaves for a weathly lord and in return, the wealthy party takes care of the man and his family, (3) one can work as a slave to earn the hand of the daughter of another man in marriage, (4) one can purchase slaves from other lands.
With the fourth instance I brought up, I would imagine that one would have to be careful in purchasing slaves to make sure that the slave is not somebody captured and forced into slavery.

[aja_christopher]

Oh, my, where to begin:

1) The fact is doing a solo superhero movie where the hero character is a gay black female WOULD be bad for sales. Say what you will, but that is reality. This is a very polarizing issue in which many people stand strongly against.

The same is said about having "black" (or any non-white) characters in lead roles -- yet Marvel has done this repeatedly, and often with success.

[VilotorioFabiano]

Oh, my, where to begin:

1) The fact is doing a solo superhero movie where the hero character is a gay black female WOULD be bad for sales. Say what you will, but that is reality. This is a very polarizing issue in which many people stand strongly against. The fact that Storm is both female and black would already diminish the sales of such a movie in some countries (the US included), but adding gay to the list would hurt the sales even more as it would go against the cultures and belief systems of far too many peoples.

2) "Gay genda" is a term used by the LGBT community and LGBT activists, so it is not "ignorant".

3) The Bible does not condone the slavery of Black people, lol! That statement is grossly inaccurate and nowhere in the Bible will you see that. As a matter of fact, Moses married an Ethoipian woman. When Aaron and Mariam challenged Moses's leadership because of his marriage to a foriegn woman, God rebuked them for challenging Moses and cursed Mariam with Leprosy. (I may be misspelling Mariam's name). This was in either Numbers 11 or 12. Furthermore, under the old covenant, where it goes into depths about slavery, it was punishable by death to capture another human being. More, if that captured human was sold, any person found with that captured human was likewise put to death. The Bible is strongly against forced slavery. You also forget that God ended up killing Pharaoh for enslaving the Hebrews in the day of Moses. The kind of slavery enacted upon Blacks in the United States echoes the kind where Blacks were captured and forced into slavery against their will similar to the day of Moses when the Hebrews were enslaved. Some examples of when slavery was permissable include" (1) if one man owes a huge debt to another, he can work off the debt as a slave, (2) say a man can't take care of himself and his family, they can work as slaves for a weathly lord and in return, the wealthy party takes care of the man and his family, (3) one can work as a slave to earn the hand of the daughter of another man in marriage, (4) one can purchase slaves from other lands.
With the fourth instance I brought up, I would imagine that one would have to be careful in purchasing slaves to make sure that the slave is not somebody captured and forced into slavery.

1) And in the eyes of many people, a Storm movie won't be made, because another reality is that there's a ton of racism in the world. Especially here in this country. Hell, I'd go out and say this country, at this stage, has more racism than homophobia. So we shouldn't make a Storm movie because it would offend all the racists.

2) No it's not. And now you're speaking on behalf of people you don't even respect? Only homophobes go on and on about the "gay agenda". Is that similar to the "black agenda"? Cause a lot of racist complain about that. It's not an agenda. It's civil rights! Educate yourself. You don't get to decide what offends gay people just like me, a non-black person doesn't get to decide what's offensive to black people.

3) Yes it does. It also says women are property, so not sure why someone who's obsessed with the bible as much as you are would even be a Storm fan. I mean a powerful black woman who doesn't take crap from men, who is not Christian, and who is a nudist... If the bible is real, Storm is going to Hell.

[aja_christopher]

2) No it's not. And now you're speaking on behalf of people you don't even respect? Only homophobes go on and on about the "gay agenda". Is that similar to the "black agenda"? Cause a lot of racist complain about that. It's not an agenda. It's civil rights! Educate yourself. You don't get to decide what offends gay people just like me, a non-black person doesn't get to decide what's offensive to black people.

I meant to comment on this as well, but decided to cut my response short to keep things simple.

It's completely true that the 'gay agenda' is mentioned mostly by those in opposition to LGBT rights, just as the 'black agenda' is often mentioned by those who oppose it in turn.

Let's just call it what it is: the demand for equality under the law.

I also wanted to mention the fact that (as was noted earlier) not all Christians are the same and ask why more can't be a little more Kurt Wagner and a little less William Stryker... but that applies to nearly all fundamentalist thinkers, no matter what the background.

Ultimately, I think many of your (and my) counter-arguments will fall on deaf ears, unfortunately, and there's not much point in getting angry about it on a public forum and ruining a good thread.

I've had these same discussions with older religious family members, and in the end all you can really do is be glad that things are, slowly but surely, changing for the better... with or without them.

[rutog98]

1) And in the eyes of many people, a Storm movie won't be made, because another reality is that there's a ton of racism in the world. Especially here in this country. Hell, I'd go out and say this country, at this stage, has more racism than homophobia. So we shouldn't make a Storm movie because it would offend all the racists.

2) No it's not. And now you're speaking on behalf of people you don't even respect? Only homophobes go on and on about the "gay agenda". Is that similar to the "black agenda"? Cause a lot of racist complain about that. It's not an agenda. It's civil rights! Educate yourself. You don't get to decide what offends gay people just like me, a non-black person doesn't get to decide what's offensive to black people.

3) Yes it does. It also says women are property, so not sure why someone who's obsessed with the bible as much as you are would even be a Storm fan. I mean a powerful black woman who doesn't take crap from men, who is not Christian, and who is a nudist... If the bible is real, Storm is going to Hell.

Numbers 1 and 2 read to me more like rants. I'm not going to respond to that save I will say that nowhere have I stated that I don't respect gay people as human beings. I merely bring up a certain reality that exists. There is a spiritual compoment to this whole argument that cannot be ignored when dealing with potential consumers if you want to market a gay black female character. Also, I'll go back and check, but I am sure I have seen LGBT activists use the phrase "gay agenda". To be honest, this is not a topic I discuss very much. If I am wrong on this and the term is negative, then I aplogize for it. Off the top of my head, I recall a lesbian, I believe, stating that "religious freedom must give way to the gay agenda" or something like that. I believe this lesbian woman was Canadian. I seem to recall other instances of gay activists using this term.

As for your number 3 point, show me in the Bible where it says, "its okay to enslave Black people". Good luck with that. As for your posts about women, etc, you are going by the Old Testament which is the old covenant. We are now under the new covenant because of Jesus Christ. Show me under the new covenant where women are viewed as property? Furthermore, Storm is NOT Christian. Nowhere did I state that she was nor do I think she should be converted to Christianity. Its not who she is. That said, another reason I brought up the whole religious thing was to show aspects of Storm's maternal and paternal side. Her father was African-American. The practice of homosexuality goes against African-American culture and religion. It also goes against modern day Kenyan culture, but Yogaflame raised a valid point that Storm's maternal ancestry likely predates the time where Christianity and to a lesser extent, Islam, became the dominant religions in the region of her maternal ancestral bloodline. Therefore, nothing can be stated on her maternal side definitively. We don't know if they may have been accepting of homosexuality in the past. Given today's Kenyan society, though, their views on that may be one that does not approve of it. Who knows? However, I'm looking at the bigger picture. If you want to make a Storm movie and you want to maximize sells, you have to take into considerion audiences on a global scale since such a movie would be played in theaters internationally. Would a straight black female superhero solo movie sell better than a gay black female superhero movie? I think the former would sell much better than the latter.

That said, we agree that Storm is a powerful black woman that doesn't take crap from anyone (men or women), she is not Christian and she is comfortable both being fully clothed and in the nude.