Should Jeff Lemire out Storm as LGBT?

[rutog98]

The same is said about having "black" (or any non-white) characters in lead roles -- yet Marvel has done this repeatedly, and often with success.

Its not merely being a lead role I'm talking about here, but being the whole center of the movie. For instance, I don't believe a Storm solo movie would sell as well as a Thor or Iron Man solo movie outside of comicbook fans because you are talking about the difference between a SOLO black female superhero movie vs. a SOLO white male superhero movie. I'm saying that adding gay onto her already double minority status would shrink the demographic even more. I don't think it would be wise to do from a business stand point. One of the reasons I brought up religion was to show how many would view such a move and to buttress my assertion that it would hurt her marketability.

Anyway, everything said and all, I think we're beating a dead horse at this point. I don't think there's anything more to add to this discussion, so I will bow out.

[aja_christopher]

Its not merely being a lead role I'm talking about here, but being the whole center of the movie. For instance, I don't believe a Storm solo movie would sell as well as a Thor or Iron Man solo movie outside of comicbook fans because you are talking about the difference between a SOLO black female superhero movie vs. a SOLO white male superhero movie. I'm saying that adding gay onto her already double minority status would shrink the demographic even more. I don't think it would be wise to do from a business stand point. One of the reasons I brought up religion was to show how many would view such a move and to buttress my assertion that it would hurt her marketability.

Fair enough.

And I wasn't trying to be dismissive of your posts -- I was just pointing out that we hear similar arguments when any oppressed "minority" (black, Muslim, female, etc) seeks equal representation and fair treatment in our media, as well as in society at large.

Realistically speaking, your faith is your faith and no one has the right to ask you to change it... and I think any arguments that we might have would (unfortunately) lean in that direction.

All I was saying is that one never really knows what will be successful -- whether it's a "solo" featuring a brown-skinned Muslim female superhero or a blue-skinned "daemonic" Christian superhero -- until one tries it.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Which only further proves my point about "experimentation" and the inefficiency of sexual labels.

My point is that Psylocke has been shown "on-panel" to be sexually attracted to at least one female, which leaves the door open for further exploration of said topic (i.e. bisexuality).

For all we know, however, Kitty is equally "bi" (having possibly experimented with Illyana in the past -- and maybe even "off-panel" in the present) or even Remy or Logan, both of whom have been cited as potentially bisexual by writers Claremont and (James) Asmus respectively.

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"It’s true that I was interested in revealing Gambit to be bisexual in our series – with us first seeing him seduce a man on one of his missions, and soon thereafter meeting a member of the thieves guild Gambit previously had a more significant relationship with in his pre-X-Men debut. I never got past pitching the first part, though, as word came down we wouldn’t be redefining the character as such.

A few important disclaimers, though… first, I have no idea how high or low on the totem pole that decision was made, or for what reasons – but my editor on the book was the fabulous Daniel Ketcham who is an out man and prominent voice for LBGT diversity in comics. Though the memory is hazy (I pitched a LOT of different ideas for that book) I don’t think he was keen on the idea just from a practical / story stand point. And as I mentioned, I had lots of different concepts I was happy to explore – so in fairness, the No wasn’t something I fought against. And in hindsight, maybe that pitch was too half-baked?

Either way, we never did anything to go against the idea he’s bisexual. So maybe someone else will craft that story?" -- James Asmus

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/08/...-asmus-speaks/

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All that said, there's really no way to say who is and who is not "really" LGBT in the X-Books given the fact that only recently has said option been (relatively) acceptable to both editors and fans; thus, to me it seems a bit silly to argue about "past history" when said history is often "closeted" due to outright homophobia and bigotry.

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that ANY of these characters are LGBT... just that the arguments against them being LGBT based primarily on "history" only take into account what we are shown on panel, which is very limited given the entire scope of these characters (theoretical) lives.

One female that was basically a man that she'd loved first, so that situation can't be repeated unless a male version of Storm or someone else pops up out of the blue I think. The thing about the bible that some fail to recognize is that a word meant one thing way back when and it can mean something totally different now, I don't remember it condoning slavery, and the property thing doesn't mean the same then as it does now...and it doesn't really matter what Asmus says what he wanted to do or thought about doing, it didn't happen so that's the end of that bit.

[aja_christopher]

One female that was basically a man that she'd loved first, so that situation can't be repeated unless a male version of Storm or someone else pops up out of the blue I think. The thing about the bible that some fail to recognize is that a word meant one thing way back when and it can mean something totally different now, I don't remember it condoning slavery, and the property thing doesn't mean the same then as it does now...and it doesn't really matter what Asmus says what he wanted to do or thought about doing, it didn't happen so that's the end of that bit.

Just because it didn't happen in the past -- on panel -- doesn't mean it can't happen in the future.

I think the close-mindedness about this topic is very telling -- in a world where people can grow wings, read minds, and shoot lasers from their eyes... apparently the one thing they can't do is decide that they want to sleep with someone of the same sex.

[MontyCristo]

Sure. Let's just make all the X-Men gay. That way we won't have to talk about this again.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

[QUOTE=aja_christopher;1827300]Just because it didn't happen in the past

But then again you could say that about almost anything so it doesn't make it any more likely than anything else...

[Complexed]

Sure. Let's just make all the X-Men gay. That way we won't have to talk about this again.

Even Shortpack?

[BroHomo]

Making her LGBT would go against the culture of both her maternal and paternal side. Proportionally speaking, I would bet dollars to donuts that African Americans are much more conservative than White Americans. The only reason Black Americans don't vote republican/conservative is because of the existence of a strong racist vein in the republican party. While not all republicans are racist, there are enough of them in the party to affect the party platform in ways that drive potential Black voters away to the democratic party. Black Americans, by and large, do not support the gay agenda. As a matter of fact, Obama almost lost the 2012 electrion because he pushed this agenda. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB5ECWgHXgs. Many blacks were not going to vote in the 2012 election because Mitt Romney was and is a mormon (a religion that is historically very racist against blacks as well as other people of color...I can go on and on about this) and much of the republican platform does not speak to the black struggle in this country. As a matter of fact, much of that platform works against Blacks (I can type forever on this). On top of these facts, Obama was pushing the gay agenda which goes against African American culture and religion. The game changer in 2012 that turned out black voters to exercise their right to vote in record numbers and to support Obama was when the republicans tried to use voter restriction in an attempt to intimidate blacks from voting. On top of that they sought to shorten early voting days that blacks tended to use to make it harder for them to participate in the democratic process. This republican strategy awoke within the black community the old civil rights spirit and sent black voters to voting booths in droves as pastors preached from their pulpits "souls to the polls".

Speaking of her mother's people, the people of Kenya are also strongly against homosexuality. As a matter of fact, when Obama went there last summer to try and promote the gay agenda, they shut him down. They had public demonstrations against him, the president of Kenya, Kenyatta, straightened him out publically when he brought up the gay agenda during their public discourse, and the pastors of the country wrote an open letter to Obama with one stating that if Obama came there with" the gay talk" (their words, not mine), they shall tell him to "shut up and go home". They criticized him severely for not respecting their culture and religion in bringing this up. (see links below) Both the African American community (Storm's paternal side) and Kenyans (Storm's mother's side) are against this both culturally and religiously. Rather than trying to make Storm bisexual, I would rather they explore her cultural roots. I know that much of her fanbase have been clamoring for the exploration of her roots to happen for many years. There are so many other things to explore with Storm than to take a very controversal turn like this which many people will never accept.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...p-and-go-home/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rprOreiMwmg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnkw7f5AscI
http://www.churchmilitant.com/news/a...mas-gay-agenda
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/was...ights-comments

There seems to be a push from a certain part of the fanbase to make Storm a bisexual lesbian (and to make most characters bisexual, it seems). With Storm being the most prominent black character in all of comicbook history, regardless of the company's name, and the only black character to attain the prominence she has (with T'challa being perhaps the only second place followed by a huge gap before you can bring up anyone else), I think this LGBT thing should not be applied to Storm (or Panther). Its very controversal and it would make the character less marketable in many ways as it would restrict the audiences she could potentially appeal to. To be black, female and LGBT would be trying to make her the ultimate minority and it would definitely hold her back in potential future endeavors like say a possible successful solo movie..

That is a whole lot of whitesplaining, please tell me more about my cultures

That would be incompatible with, among other things, the active sexual relationship between Scott and Emma and Emma's apparently wholly uncomplicated love for Scott. If she had entered into a relationship with a deeply closeted man in the pursuit of power, she certainly didn't act like it.

How does one act in the situation?

If you choose to ignore how the relationships went, and the backstory around the characters involved, that's your prerogative. I just don't think you should get to contribute much to this exchange. What is the point in talking to someone who ignores what other people say

Good thing you don't decide that. ANd Im just repeating what you wrote. Not my fault you arent making sense

That actually isn't the page I showed. Please read it.

Oh sorry your page gave even LESS evidence.

And please stop saying the "gay agenda." So ignorant.

Right?

2) "Gay genda" is a term used by the LGBT community and LGBT activists, so it is not "ignorant".

Nope, No they dont

Even Shortpack?

ESPECIALLY Shortpack lol

[Rich Johnston]

I have to ask... what is a bisexual lesbian?

[nx01a]

I have to ask... what is a bisexual lesbian?

A fantasy perpetrated by and perpetuated by porn.

[Kieran_Frost]

Well this is more positive results than I expected after 100 votes, 40% want Storm as 100% str8; and 47% (at the very least) want her "friendship" with Yukio revealed as a canon sexual relationship. That's really cool; and a far bigger percentage that I dreamed would show. SQUEAL!!! The times they are change, and I'm loving the way the wind blows.

[RLAAMJR.]

Well this is more positive results than I expected after 100 votes, 40% want Storm as 100% str8; and 47% (at the very least) want her "friendship" with Yukio revealed as a canon sexual relationship. That's really cool; and a far bigger percentage that I dreamed would show. SQUEAL!!! The times they are change, and I'm loving the way the wind blows.

Only one option out of out of 10, of course. It would have been better if it was just a yes and no option.

[DDD]

I have to ask... what is a bisexual lesbian?

Fan Service

[Kieran_Frost]

Claremont's intentions were pretty clear, It'd be nice to have a modern writer recognize that side of her character in a more concrete way now that gay characters aren't banned in the MU like they were in that era.

Agreed. Claremont's work with Yukio/Storm existed in a time she couldn't be openly anything (except str8) because of Shooter's "No Gays at Marvel" law. Nowadays is different; so hopefully one day... one day this will be explored.

Sure.
I would much prefer it they made one of the big characters LGBT though, like Wolverine, Captain America, or Batman.

Well Claremont did hint Logan was bi; but I disagree that Storm isn't one of their "big characters". More computer game appearances than any other woman, arguably the most famous female at Marvel, possibly most famous black character too. She's A-list, 100%

I can't wait for the day when comic books don't have to make some big event about a characters sexuality (and society for that matter). You're straight/gay/bi? Great, good for you. Can we get to the part where you fight the bad guys and save the world now?

Agreed, but we are not there yet. It's still a big deal because it's still rare. When we get a new gay solo series from Marvel it'll be a BIG DEAL... because we've never had one before. Iceman was the first A-list hero to be outed, and the first A-list gay character. So it's a big deal. Michael Sam was a BIG DEAL in NFL... because he was the first. When we are still fighting for simple recognition, it'll always be a big deal.

I'm going to go with no.Iceman was not handled well at all. We are talking about a woman that was married to the Black Panther a few years ago. I think Mystique would be a more better choice given her sexual history.

Errrrrr... not following the logic there. She was married to a man, so she can't be bisexual????

And I can't believe 616-Iceman is Full Gay because AoA Iceman (who is basically the same as him as AoA and 616 should be identical until the point of divergence when Legion accidentally killed Professor X) had an orgy with four female Asian prostitues in Madripoor when he fled to Earth-616 just before he was executed by AoA Nightcrawler (unless they were actually ladyboys hehe)...

You could argue that a) he's paying them, maybe because they can't "comment" if he doesn't perform b) 4 women is overcompensation by anyone's standards

[Kieran_Frost]

I think your giving far too much credit to the writers about making Bobby gay when the reality is that there is a push in both big two companies to diversify so they are doing arbitrary race swaps (I'm not talking legacy stuff like Sam Wilson because thats not really a race swap, rather using DC as an example I mean Wally West where it was a literal race swap) and orientation changes. They wanted to make one of the original four X-males gay, past history be damned. Scott is out because they aren't that brave plus he and Emma are a current power couple in the MU. Warren is currently a mental vegetable. Beast would have made more sense because at least ten years ago there was a possible hint when he declared he was gay (during the Morrison days I believe) but that was quickly ignored and not followed up on. But with Beast I'm not sure how fans would react if they had the furry beasty one be the gay one. That left Bobby by default, evidence be damned.

For the record I've got nothing against gay characters, I thought that Rictor's storyline as he came to terms with his orientation in Peter David's X-Factor was absolutely amazing and Rictor / Shatterstar make a great couple. I can't see Bobbie as anything but a poorly written diversity push because Rictor / Shatterstar had actual hints way back in the 90's but Bobbie just was a typical Marvel character.

There is large irony in your post; the very same arguements you use against Iceman "push for diversity", "arbitrary", "lack of evidence" people said in objection to Rictor/Shatterstar. And in 10 years time if Marvel out another major character, we'll see posters saying they thought Iceman's coming out was handled well, but this newest one is just "arbitrary", "lacking evidence" and nothing but a "push for diversity".

I will say that Ororo has struck me as the type of person who was either "above it all" like the early days of CC/Cockrum, or being the type of person who is naturally interested in the opposite sex, but wasn't above rare instances of being attracted to another female (Yukio).

That is how I see her; IF she was to be labelled (I don't mind labels, but you said you do) I would be in favour of pansexual above all else. Bisexual would make me happy too.

On the subject of the thread, I really don't think Storm's relationship with Yukio needs to be explored. She's Storm: she's whatever she wants to be. A bit of ambiguity with her Japanese partner is fine.

I understand the arguement, but we're getting into Dumbledore territory. Why is it only the same-sex relationship that gets the "ambiguity" treatment?

I'll just note that other people have pointed out, repeatedly, different small things that could be taken to indicate Drake being in the closet. They weren't the only things, but they could be seen that way.

Bobby was the only one of the four original male X-Men who could be gay. Even if he was selected for some sort of diversity push, his selection was not arbitrary. He was the one of the four who could plausibly be deeply in the closet.

The weird catch-22 is some will never accept "hints" because it wasn't clear canon evidence, and yet the moment it's clear cut it's no-longer a "hint" and you'd need to go back to BEFORE the evidence to find "hints", which people won't accept because it's not clear. LOL.

(Curiously, there's no speculation about Jean. Why couldn't she be bi?)

Hmmmmm... off the top of my head, did Claremont' ever "bi" Jean?

I think it'd be nice to just have a positive representation of a bisexual person in Marvel in general. Storm would be great and for all the reasons others have posted, it would not seem like it was coming out of left field except to those who reject all subtext.

Agreed. She's powerful, capable, and leader of a major part of Marvel. It would be great to have such positive LGBT representation.

I can't much think of any other bi characters that don't really come off as positive role models except for maybe Julie Power. I'm sure I'm missing a lot of them but I can't think of any others atm.

I know you also mentioned him, but I think Prodigy is a positive example. Hope he gets back in a comic soon.