"Hail HYDRA" Appreciation

[Darthkostis]

Truth be told, I'm genuinely surprised that, despite what TWS did to the HYDRA IP, we don't even have an appreciation thread for this long-standing thorn in many heroes' sides. I think it sorta boils down to it being too sensitive a subject, but, honestly, lots of characters, even ones who are downright evil such as the Joker, Apocalypse or Mr. Sinister, have appreciation threads. Thing is, Hickman developed the organization a lot during his Secret Warriors run, and gave us a lore that could very well support its own universe if I'm being honest. New characters like the Kraken and the Hive, updates on old caricatures... Sigh, that series was a blast... I miss Dark Reign... So, I think it deserves a place where we can talk about all that wonderful world building.

Personally, what I like about the HYDRA "culture" is the contrast in the different opinions. You've got Red Skull, the man with no ideology who's just interested in pain and suffering. Then you've got Strucker, who's fairly standard as far as bad guys go. Rule the world, don't get seen, manipulate everyone, infiltrate everything, might is right and all that. And then you've got Zemo, my favourite, who's sort of like a less extreme and more altruistic Strucker. He still has a superiority complex and an ego problem, but he genuinely believes that his actions are for the benefit of mankind. I didn't like the regression from Born Better to "villain" from Remender's run, but I love the following scene:




In just 2 short pages, we got a very clear understanding of this new Zemo. Cold, efficient, merciless, with altruistic intentions, but still plagued by an ego problem and an aggravated superiority complex. I was really sad when this whole storyline was abandoned, but I hope with CW around the corner, Zemo will get a chance to shine once again. I'm not pulling Thunderbolts because the creative team is totally unknown to me and that art is not helping, so I'm hoping post Pleasant Hill Helmut appears somewhere else.

Anyway, here's the place to discuss all things HYDRA. Your favourite characters (Viper, Silver Samurai, Kraken), the ones you love to hate (Red Skull, Crossbones) , post pics and fan-art, and, in general, engage in conversation about all everything and anything concerning this old time foe of so many great characters. HAIL HYDRA!

PS: I realy hope no one here takes it one step further into that direction. This is purely a lighthearted thread about fictional villains that many people enjoy. It doesn't mean that I or anyone else share the same ideals as those characters, and I want to make that crystal clear.

[Winterboy]

I really want to see want to see Ellis writing a "Global Frequency style" HYDRA series someday.

[Darthkostis]

I really want to see want to see Ellis writing a "Global Frequency style" HYDRA series someday.

You and me both. Honestly, there are tons of things that you can do with a HYDRA book, and it's a shame Marvel isn't trying to cash in on the IP's current popularity.

[Huntsman Spider]

Speaking of HYDRA, did anyone read the Hail HYDRA miniseries from Secret Wars last year? It's in TPB now, a collection that also includes the rather comedic one-shot Hank Johnson, Agent of HYDRA, which is a lot more like a "working stiff" comedy that happens to center around a HYDRA grunt. It's got carpooling, office gossip, charges of sexual harassment that get pretty much brushed off because of who the harasser is (Viper, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people will comment that's not so bad, since it's Viper). As for the Hail HYDRA miniseries itself, it's set in a domain of Battleworld where HYDRA took over America at pretty much its founding, complete with a HYDRA Avengers that includes Baron Strucker as HYDRA's version of Iron Man, a Captain HYDRA that's Ian Zola-Rogers's doppelganger native to that reality, Venom and his Vipers (the Vipers being women infected with offshoots of the symbiote and under the control of the "king symbiote" like a hive mind), and Steve Rogers and Sharon Carter as heroic revolutionaries with a daughter named Ellie. Plus, the first in-comics appearance of Grant Ward, everybody's favorite Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. who turned out to be a HYDRA mole and has since gone on to be a surprisingly dangerous enemy in his own right to the main cast of the show.

[Darthkostis]

Speaking of HYDRA, did anyone read the Hail HYDRA miniseries from Secret Wars last year? It's in TPB now, a collection that also includes the rather comedic one-shot Hank Johnson, Agent of HYDRA, which is a lot more like a "working stiff" comedy that happens to center around a HYDRA grunt. It's got carpooling, office gossip, charges of sexual harassment that get pretty much brushed off because of who the harasser is (Viper, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people will comment that's not so bad, since it's Viper). As for the Hail HYDRA miniseries itself, it's set in a domain of Battleworld where HYDRA took over America at pretty much its founding, complete with a HYDRA Avengers that includes Baron Strucker as HYDRA's version of Iron Man, a Captain HYDRA that's Ian Zola-Rogers's doppelganger native to that reality, Venom and his Vipers (the Vipers being women infected with offshoots of the symbiote and under the control of the "king symbiote" like a hive mind), and Steve Rogers and Sharon Carter as heroic revolutionaries with a daughter named Ellie. Plus, the first in-comics appearance of Grant Ward, everybody's favorite Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. who turned out to be a HYDRA mole and has since gone on to be a surprisingly dangerous enemy in his own right to the main cast of the show.

I read the Hank Johnson single and I loved it, truth be told. It was genuinely funny and somewhat weird. It was as if it was an alternate-history book or something. As for the rest, I didn't really bother because Ian was the protagonist. Had it been Helmut or just someone from HYDRA, I'd be interested. See, I'm tired of the same old story when it comes to such books/movies/stories. I don't want to see yet another resistance go against the tyranical overlords. I want to see the inner workings of that organization, I want to see what the world looks like now. It's the same thing with "The Man in the High Castle". I was expecting a mix between GoT & HoC set in a world where the Axis won, but all I'm getting so far is the same old story. Do something different for once...

[Huntsman Spider]

I read the Hank Johnson single and I loved it, truth be told. It was genuinely funny and somewhat weird. It was as if it was an alternate-history book or something. As for the rest, I didn't really bother because Ian was the protagonist. Had it been Helmut or just someone from HYDRA, I'd be interested. See, I'm tired of the same old story when it comes to such books/movies/stories. I don't want to see yet another resistance go against the tyranical overlords. I want to see the inner workings of that organization, I want to see what the world looks like now. It's the same thing with "The Man in the High Castle". I was expecting a mix between GoT & HoC set in a world where the Axis won, but all I'm getting so far is the same old story. Do something different for once...

Hmm, that's an intriguing point. I think people prefer to write and read these stories from the perspective of the presumably heroic resistance because most of them don't want to treat the tyrannical rulers as the protagonists, under the assumption that "protagonist" automatically equals "hero" and the natural inclination of most audiences (and writers) to side with the perceived hero(es) of the story. Part of it, from an American perspective, would come from America's somewhat mythologized origins as colonists bravely and heroically opposing British tyranny, even though a deeper and harder look at that period will show that many of the colonists, particularly a number of the leading figures of the American Revolution, weren't much better than the British tyrants, morally speaking, and the treatment of Africans and Native Americans would of course be the big black mark on the righteous revolution. Hell, a lot more stories about "heroic resistance to tyranny" tend to portray the resistance as at the very least anti-heroes of one kind or another, or even just as bad in their own way as the tyrant(s) they want to unseat, perhaps due to increased awareness of how revolutions all too often turn out or even start in real life.

[Darthkostis]

Hmm, that's an intriguing point. I think people prefer to write and read these stories from the perspective of the presumably heroic resistance because most of them don't want to treat the tyrannical rulers as the protagonists, under the assumption that "protagonist" automatically equals "hero" and the natural inclination of most audiences (and writers) to side with the perceived hero(es) of the story. Part of it, from an American perspective, would come from America's somewhat mythologized origins as colonists bravely and heroically opposing British tyranny, even though a deeper and harder look at that period will show that many of the colonists, particularly a number of the leading figures of the American Revolution, weren't much better than the British tyrants, morally speaking, and the treatment of Africans and Native Americans would of course be the big black mark on the righteous revolution. Hell, a lot more stories about "heroic resistance to tyranny" tend to portray the resistance as at the very least anti-heroes of one kind or another, or even just as bad in their own way as the tyrant(s) they want to unseat, perhaps due to increased awareness of how revolutions all too often turn out or even start in real life.

Truth be told, I get it. I'm re-watching Inglorious Basterds and it's a really weird feeling rooting for Waltz's character, Hans. He's the villain of the story no doubt, but he's so charismatic and entertaining that you want to see him get away with it all. I imagine most people just aren't comfortable with liking such vile characters, because, in a way, they're "real". Joker is a fictional character, so you don't feel as if you're rooting for an actual murderer. But with Nazis, well, it's just a whole diffirent kind of talk. But, thing is, "art" isn't about what's comfortable, it's about exploring new things. I don't think a movie/book/comic/game has ever been done from the villain's POV. Sure, there have been stories where villains are co-stars like, say, Nailbitter as far as recent examples go, but we've never seen a full-on villain story. There are a couple of minis here and there, and currently I guess Carnage counts, but the "genre" if you want to call it that, is rather small. For all I know there are lots of indie films that tackle that subject, but they're not exactly easy to find. Wolfenstein could have used a new POV considering there have been so many games in that franchise.

IMO, HYDRA is different enough to be able to be used without someone's mind going to that direction immediately. But, even then, so what? It's fiction, a story. I will admit that I'd read a Red Skull ongoing with no problem if the premise was interesting. If it was a "House of Cards"/"The Thick of It"-esque book with a political angle I'd read it. It doesn't matter if the character is despicable as long as the story is entertaining. Hell, I'd gladly take that over yet another super-hero book with the same old plot, tropes and cliches. At least it'd be different. Just because somone enjoys reading about a certain character that doesn't mean that he/she agrees or supports his actions. Still, it's a sensitive subject, and as a person who lost a couple of relatives in the camps (well, I wasn't born then, but you get the point), I get it. But that's not going to stop me from enjoying a great story.

[Huntsman Spider]

For another ongoing with villains as protagonists, there's Illuminati, which is about the Hood gathering disenfranchised or disenchanted villains to form a kind of syndicate for super-villains. Titania is one of the main characters, wanting out of the life but like so many criminals in the real world finding that she can't and resigning herself to making the best of it, partly thanks to Hood manipulating things so her situation would be bad enough that she'd see no other choice but to throw in with him. I do agree that it would be interesting to see the inner workings of HYDRA from the perspective of a regular or semi-regular someone in HYDRA, the organization being patterned after Zemo's expressed ideology of "saving the world from itself --- so we can rule it, of course, because it's not like you lot have done such a great job running things yourselves." Maybe not necessarily a sympathetic view inside HYDRA, but perhaps at least an understandable one that reasonable people could debate, whatever controversy might or might not be stirred up by giving a sympathetic/understandable angle to an organization founded by Nazis.

[Darthkostis]

For another ongoing with villains as protagonists, there's Illuminati, which is about the Hood gathering disenfranchised or disenchanted villains to form a kind of syndicate for super-villains. Titania is one of the main characters, wanting out of the life but like so many criminals in the real world finding that she can't and resigning herself to making the best of it, partly thanks to Hood manipulating things so her situation would be bad enough that she'd see no other choice but to throw in with him. I do agree that it would be interesting to see the inner workings of HYDRA from the perspective of a regular or semi-regular someone in HYDRA, the organization being patterned after Zemo's expressed ideology of "saving the world from itself --- so we can rule it, of course, because it's not like you lot have done such a great job running things yourselves." Maybe not necessarily a sympathetic view inside HYDRA, but perhaps at least an understandable one that reasonable people could debate, whatever controversy might or might not be stirred up by giving a sympathetic/understandable angle to an organization founded by Nazis.

I tried the first 2 or so issues of Illuminati, but it wasn't really my cup of tea. What I want to read is something daring and new concerning villains, not the tired and old "sympathetic villain who does bad things because there's no other way". I want to see a full-blown villain and experience his philosophy first hand, something that could easily be done with a HYDRA title. Honestly, there are so many interesting characters you can use, and so many unique scenarios you can explore from their perspective, that it's a missed opportunity the fact that we don't have one such book as of now. Darth Vader is the one that most resembles what I'm talking about...

[Winterboy]

hydra agent.jpg

I want to see HYDRA as a real “Evil Corporation”. Give us some sleeper agents, conspiracy, industrial espionage, government corruption and dangerous operatives.

And no more goofy costumes…
hydra agents.jpg

[Darthkostis]

hydra agent.jpg

I want to see HYDRA as a real “Evil Corporation”. Give us some sleeper agents, conspiracy, industrial espionage, government corruption and dangerous operatives.

And no more goofy costumes…
hydra agents.jpg

Remender was probably going towards that direction with his Cap run, but alas, twas not meant to be... Which is a shame, really, because Remender knows how to write "shades of gray" pretty darn good.

[Darthkostis]

So, seems like there's an addition to the "family"! With CA: SR being so focused on HYDRA, I imagine fans like us have lots to look forward to. If you're a HYDRA fan, you should pick up the book.

[ZeroBG82]

Hydra never seemed to have a shortage of manpower.

That's true. Though now they have the only agent they'll ever need.

[Darthkostis]

So, any theories as to how all this could play out? I mean, imagine for a second that this is the real deal. Steve was always a HYDRA Agent, and this won't be reversed. How would you explain all that? For me, it's rather easy. Steve's HYDRA was more in line with the "Spear", the "first" HYDRA, which wanted to create a perfect world, not destroy it and rule it. So that would bring him into direct conflict with Red Skull and the like, who were rooted in Nazism and just wanted to rule the world. It'd make sense why he's been thawrting their plans for so long, because they're different chapters! Plus, it allows for this change to "stick", while also not really turning him into a straight-up villain. I'm telling you, if this all turns out to be a "mind-control" case, I'll be really dissapointed...

[alton]

Thanks for this thread. I have been motivated to re read Secret Warriors and I was disappointed when Secret Avengers wasn't a continuation. I will also pick up Hail Hydra mini. The only Secret Wars I followed was Where Monsters Dwell which was hilarious. I was a fan of DC's Lex Luthors Action Comics run awhile back and the Red Skull mini recently. I think a Hydra run in the vein of the aborted Shield maxi would be a great idea.