Page 6 of 28 FirstFirst ... 234567891016 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 419
  1. #76
    Veteran Member Double 0's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
    This is a different Wally, in a different Universe. The other one was a redhead, this one is biracial. It really isn't that big a deal. Yes he's younger, both than he was in the other Universe and than some of his previous compatriots. What's important is whether they hold true to the spirit of the character, and we won't know that until he appears in a few more stories.

    We don't expect the Lancelot and Arthur of Excalibur, Sword in the Stone, and Merlyn to be the same, so why should we expect all versions of our comic characters to be the same in different incarnations?

    As for diversity, DC has published a huge range of diverse books both before and since the New 52 launched. The problem is that people don't buy them. The Movement was a good book, with a very diverse cast and promotion, yet it did not do well in the market.

    If we buy diverse books, we'll see greater diversity.
    Is it really "we don't buy them", or is it "DC doesn't know how to market to the people who would buy them?"

    I think Marvel is proving the latter.

  2. #77
    Fantastic Member Lemurion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    352

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Double 0 View Post
    Is it really "we don't buy them", or is it "DC doesn't know how to market to the people who would buy them?"

    I think Marvel is proving the latter.
    I'm going to wait for sales numbers before I say anything about the current Ms. Marvel book (although it is very good and I've enjoyed it). Having said that, in the years I've been reading comics, it's been more the former than the latter. DC markets the books well enough to generate sustainable sales levels, beyond that it's a matter of reader buzz and it's the readers who're failing the industry. I've always felt blaming the marketing was a cop-out.

    In the end it all comes down to comic readers going out, pre-ordering and buying the books.

  3. #78
    Veteran Member Double 0's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
    I'm going to wait for sales numbers before I say anything about the current Ms. Marvel book (although it is very good and I've enjoyed it). Having said that, in the years I've been reading comics, it's been more the former than the latter. DC markets the books well enough to generate sustainable sales levels, beyond that it's a matter of reader buzz and it's the readers who're failing the industry. I've always felt blaming the marketing was a cop-out.

    In the end it all comes down to comic readers going out, pre-ordering and buying the books.
    I think the problem is that you're talking relative to other US comic book sales. Outside of that, sales in general are abysmal. And I think it's because the current format is unwelcoming and inaccessible to new readers and/or casual readers.

    So while you say blaming marketing is a cop out, I feel the opposite. Blaming the fans, which just so happen to be the same diluting fanbase give or take, is a cop-out for DC being unable to really garner new ones and sustain them.

    Other parts of the industry are doing it. And so is the international market. DC refuses to change, evolve, modify it's structure in substantial ways. Too afraid to take risks. And their sales prove this.

  4. #79
    Junior Member serpentor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Diversity is a great thing, I'm all for it and sometimes DC manages to bring great characters into their universe that bring that diversity and sure sometimes change to bring some much needed diversity can help. Alan Scott, Hawk girl and Val Zod of Earth 2 are good examples to me, they are all interesting characters in their own right and they bring diversity to that book. Then there are bad changes, Amanda Waller represented a strong woman who didn't conform to traditional ideals of beauty but they had to go and thin her down and make her look like every other woman in comic books. I'd also argue that while sales may be better with Barbara in the suit as batgirl having her as a disabled character who was still relevant to the superhero community was diiversity that was removed, as well as Cassandra Cain, the bat line is the highest selling property and had two diverse characters removed in the new52. The jury is going to be out on the whole Wally West thing for a while but it just feels forced when you find out it's a mandate from editorial and it seems so far like he's not Wally West in any way except for the name and the argument is you can't just create new characters in general let alone new diverse ones because they just won't sell so it's better to just make an existing character newly diverse. But in this case Wally isn't the selling point he's just a supporting character so that argument doesn't fly to me it just seems like a reason to justify this decision.

    Marvel at least are trying with the new Ms Marvel title, she's a new character and a minority not just an existing character who is now a minority for the sake of diversity.

    Maybe I just want to live in a perfect world where a character being a minority isn't a big deal and isn't used as a gimmick to sell more comics. It should just be there and have the character be interesting and relevant and have good stories with good creative teams and let the works speak for themselves.

  5. #80
    BANNED
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    U wud lyk 2 knw dat wnt u? Hehehe!
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennSimpson View Post
    What are they doing to "push" Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, etc.?
    U mean othr dan being d centre of each& every single evnt with absolutely no inclusion of non- Supes, non-bats, non-GL & non-JL bks or xcters?


    Originally Posted by Double 0 :

    Random question, with all the new solo ongoings coming out from Marvel with a wide range of diversity (Ms Marvel, Ghost Rider, Storm, War Machine, Nightcrawler), will there be a response from DC?

    And if so, which minority characters would you like to see get ongoings? And are there any minority creators you'd like to see DC acquire?
    Whr r d Milestone media xcters?

    Icon (instead of d terrible Val Zod), Rocket, Blitzen, Xombi & SHADOW CABINET wud b brillaint.....STATIC deserves a retrn without d blatant intntional editorial sabotage. Wud it b sooo had 2 as 4 sum mini series on deez xcters lyk wat was done in d currnt NU 52 with Ray, Human Bomb, Fantom Lady & Doll man? Spking of which whr r does xcters as well? Particularly Ray & d nu 52 Uncle Sam who wasin process of building d nu 52 Freedom Fytrs?

    Wildstorm has had its chance REPEATEDLY & kps failing....now gv Milestone d same opprtunity but without DC editorial supabi#%@ery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Overhazard View Post
    I doubt that there will be a response. DC has a tendency to stick to what works, sometimes they mix things up with either diverse characters or genres like Vibe, Threshold, and the movement but they don't promote them enough then when they fail they blame the fans.

    If they did decide to respond, I would like to see a Vixen ongoing, she could be the new agent of the red. I'd like to see a cyborg ongoing too. I think that Blue Beetle and Static should be the new blue and gold team.

    I can't think of any minority creators off the top of my head. I'd like James Roberts to write the legion of superheroes but he's white.

  6. #81
    BANNED
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,435

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverZeal View Post
    U mean othr dan being d centre of each& every single evnt with absolutely no inclusion of non- Supes, non-bats, non-GL & non-JL bks or xcters?
    Well there are minority characters in Justice League.

    Why is it that Katana and Vibe didn't sell, given that they were in the Justice League of America and were included in Trinity War?

    My main point its, every month the Previews come out and they list every book DC is publishing; the advance solicits list them all. They have stories about all of the upcoming books on the Web sites. There's very little reason for a reader not to see the information about something like Vibe or Katana or the Movement and tell their LCS to order them a copy. But they don't, because readers in general are more interested in Superman, Batman, etc. That's not DC's fault.

    And if the LCS doesn't stock the issues for people who are more casual readers, that's on the LCS. Of course, they are just responding to history so it's really back on the fans.
    Last edited by GlennSimpson; 05-06-2014 at 05:32 AM.

  7. #82
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    11,535

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Den View Post
    Sometimes it is hard to figure out whether DC is fumbling the ball or if the fans just refuse to join in the game. I loved OMAC, so did many others who read it, but not enough read it in the first place and the series died. I really liked Vibe version Nu52. Cisco was great, and Gates wrote him well. Unfortunately, some folks couldn't get past the 80s version and refused to even look at it, so again...unfair series cancellation. On the other hand, as much as I liked Bunker (Seriously fun guy), I just couldn't continue to support Teen Titans as the storylines were too garbled for my tastes. Mr. Terrific and Static Shock both deserved better treatment than they got, and it's unfair to expect fans to buy books for ANY character when the creative efforts are just not that good.

    So I'm not sure there's just one group (creators, readers, editorial) we can point at and say "Your fault this didn't work" .

    However, I will applaud DC for their effort. Whatever I may think of their execution, they are TRYING to increase diversity.
    I agree with these sentiments. The issue is a lot more complicated than it might appear at first glance.
    A bat! That's it! It's an omen.. I'll shall become a bat!

    Pre-CBR Reboot Join Date: 10-17-2010

    Pre-CBR Reboot Posts: 4,362

    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ So... what's your excuse now?

  8. #83
    Fantastic Member Lemurion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    352

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Double 0 View Post
    I think the problem is that you're talking relative to other US comic book sales. Outside of that, sales in general are abysmal. And I think it's because the current format is unwelcoming and inaccessible to new readers and/or casual readers.

    So while you say blaming marketing is a cop out, I feel the opposite. Blaming the fans, which just so happen to be the same diluting fanbase give or take, is a cop-out for DC being unable to really garner new ones and sustain them.

    Other parts of the industry are doing it. And so is the international market. DC refuses to change, evolve, modify it's structure in substantial ways. Too afraid to take risks. And their sales prove this.
    When the fans say "we want diverse books, not more Batman," but buy more Batman and ignore the diverse books, it's hard to excuse them. Take the Movement; a good book, a diverse cast, heavily promoted, and still it's ending after 12 issues.

    As for the idea that DC's "too afraid to take risks," that's ridiculous. They take far more risks than Marvel, and get none of the credit.

    In the end, everything comes down to fans voting with their dollars. Period.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    I don't understand how that's related to what I'm saying. I said Milestone wants the prospects of Warner Bros. adaptations which is why they're keeping the partnership with DC.

    But anyhow, I think the IDW comics are for CN properties like Dexter, not DC properties that were adapted to CN.
    I think the current Milestone owners should give up hope on this. WB isn't showing any interest on any front for any of their properties. At least try to do something before the properties lose even more value. I mean Static is definitely a bigger known quantity than the Metal Men.

  10. #85
    Super Moderator ShaggyB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In Moderator land
    Posts
    673

    Default

    Several post removed.

    Please keep in mind, this thread is about diversity in DC and the Nu52, not about real world race relations and how the government has handled them over time. If you would like to discuss, in a civil way, the details of slavery and how the US government handled/continues to handle race relations... I would recommend the Community board.

    Though one bit of warning, subjects such as these are sensitive in nature. Its best to take your time and make sure to express your thoughts in the most civil way possible.

  11. #86
    BANNED
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    U wud lyk 2 knw dat wnt u? Hehehe!
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Give us Milestone xcters DC & pls do not sabotage d titles claiming dat readrs didnt buy d bk whn u cancel it. Dats hypocrital!

  12. #87
    Fantastic Member Lemurion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    352

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverZeal View Post
    Give us Milestone xcters DC & pls do not sabotage d titles claiming dat readrs didnt buy d bk whn u cancel it. Dats hypocrital!
    How is it hypocritical to claim that readers aren't buying books with low sales figures? For all the inaccuracy of the numbers we get, it's pretty clear that these books are selling well below the average, and that they are being cancelled for lack of sales. That's not sabotage, that's reality.

  13. #88
    Member galaxygnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennSimpson View Post
    Well there are minority characters in Justice League.

    Why is it that Katana and Vibe didn't sell, given that they were in the Justice League of America and were included in Trinity War?

    My main point its, every month the Previews come out and they list every book DC is publishing; the advance solicits list them all. They have stories about all of the upcoming books on the Web sites. There's very little reason for a reader not to see the information about something like Vibe or Katana or the Movement and tell their LCS to order them a copy. But they don't, because readers in general are more interested in Superman, Batman, etc. That's not DC's fault.

    And if the LCS doesn't stock the issues for people who are more casual readers, that's on the LCS. Of course, they are just responding to history so it's really back on the fans.
    I wasn't reading Katana, so I can't speak for that, but I did try Vibe. Did you try that book? It was a total and complete clusterffdg. The first couple issues started interestingly enough, but from there the book got pulled 20 different directions from dc-wide events, creator changes, etc. there was no good ongoing talent on the book, it suffered. really, neither vibe nor katana had really fleshed out interesting personalities on JLA either - not much that would attract a new reader, IMO, so you can't consider that strong marketing. How did new queer lady superhero batwoman succeed? By having an incredible talent attached, including art that appealed to people beyond the traditional comics-reading crowd.

    Posting what your books are in your solicits, your website, etc, is not marketing.

    Ms. Marvel? People I know who have never read a comic book in their life knew about the ANMN Ms. Marvel. They were interested, excited. THAT is marketing.

  14. #89
    BANNED
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,435

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by galaxygnome View Post
    I wasn't reading Katana, so I can't speak for that, but I did try Vibe. Did you try that book? It was a total and complete clusterffdg. The first couple issues started interestingly enough, but from there the book got pulled 20 different directions from dc-wide events, creator changes, etc. there was no good ongoing talent on the book, it suffered. really, neither vibe nor katana had really fleshed out interesting personalities on JLA either - not much that would attract a new reader, IMO, so you can't consider that strong marketing. How did new queer lady superhero batwoman succeed? By having an incredible talent attached, including art that appealed to people beyond the traditional comics-reading crowd.

    Posting what your books are in your solicits, your website, etc, is not marketing.

    Ms. Marvel? People I know who have never read a comic book in their life knew about the ANMN Ms. Marvel. They were interested, excited. THAT is marketing.
    Actually, what people know about Ms. Marvel they know from P.R. , not marketing. But that's neither here nor there.

    I got Katana, Vibe, and Batwoman. Of them all, I actually like Batwoman the least because I didn't like the original artist. Although now that they are getting someone more traditional on art I think I'll enjoy it more. But I certainly gave them all a try. Of course, I've got a relatively big comics budget - if I only had $50 to spend a month or so like a lot of comics fans, I'd have to be a lot more selective. Vibe did get twisted around a lot but I still enjoyed his personality and his power set.

    I think Ms. Marvel is going to end up like Captain Marvel - there's going to be a very vocal group who is going to pick it up every month, but that group isn't big enough to actually support the book long-term. I'm not prepared to consider it any more a success than "Vibe" until it proves otherwise.

  15. #90
    Super Moderator ShaggyB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    In Moderator land
    Posts
    673

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemurion View Post
    How is it hypocritical to claim that readers aren't buying books with low sales figures? For all the inaccuracy of the numbers we get, it's pretty clear that these books are selling well below the average, and that they are being cancelled for lack of sales. That's not sabotage, that's reality.
    I agree. The idea that DC would purposefully do something to make a title tank just so they could cancel it is odd to me. The idea is sell more and grow your market, not reduce it to the point that a portion of it must be shutdown. What happens when you get all perfect books.... would you simply stop making new titles?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •