Batman and Robin Eternal #22 preview

[DGraysonWorldsGreatestSpy]

I`m not condoning one writer when it`s a creative team leading the weekly. The problem with this format is that they drag down one major storyline over and over and it gets tiring by the tail of it. Same thing happened with the former Eternal.

That being said, Tynion and co need to just drop the bullocks about what the former Robins stand in and out. That Batman/Damian moment is all you need to know for us to not waste bandwich talking about character`s being "clones" as if it made sense. Have the balls to set out the differences and specialities and run with them. Burce admitting that the reason he endorses Jason is because he understands that`s where his life path led him and he`s necessary to places he won`t go - admitting that Jason actually in one thing carries himself with more control than he would, is the kind of writting in small doses that Tynion is best with other than flat out action shots.

I enjoy the simbolism immensily. It makes Bruce admitting that this world has places he can`t solve and that he trusts someone to go there and come back, whereas he knows he would get lost in it.

But this thing just drags down with uninspiring concepts like Mother and Orphan and uninspiring characters like Harper Row. I once jokingly said she reads like blank paper to me and still does despite what happened to her. What is her personality? What makes her stand out? What does she add that none of the others do? Why does she only read like a bunch of clichés glued together?

Glad Cass is back, tho.

I have to completely agree with you on this. You could have actually started out this entire series with that panel between Bruce/Damian and run with them teaming up after Bruce went amnesiac. But this is what I have come to learn about the Snyder driven Bat world is how they lack cohesiveness and rely too much on tropes ranging from positive to negative. Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal have essentially little impact outside of its story and ignores what is currently going on creating a never ending timeline confusion. The Court of Owls did not have a definitive ending despite the huge implication introduced as we then went on to Death of the Family which did not really result in any Death's but Bruce withheld information that put every other person in Danger in another attempt to make Bruce being a untrustworthy paranoid individual cool. What Bruce said to Damian was nice but is empty because none of those attributes have been displayed consistently and more so the complete opposite.

[ABH]

Thought the Bruce/Damian scene was pretty great. Wish it was in one of the main books, though, because eventually this book will be all but forgotten.

[TooFlyToFail]

I`m not condoning one writer when it`s a creative team leading the weekly. The problem with this format is that they drag down one major storyline over and over and it gets tiring by the tail of it. Same thing happened with the former Eternal.

That being said, Tynion and co need to just drop the bullocks about what the former Robins stand in and out. That Batman/Damian moment is all you need to know for us to not waste bandwich talking about character`s being "clones" as if it made sense. Have the balls to set out the differences and specialities and run with them. Burce admitting that the reason he endorses Jason is because he understands that`s where his life path led him and he`s necessary to places he won`t go - admitting that Jason actually in one thing carries himself with more control than he would, is the kind of writting in small doses that Tynion is best with other than flat out action shots.

I enjoy the simbolism immensily. It makes Bruce admitting that this world has places he can`t solve and that he trusts someone to go there and come back, whereas he knows he would get lost in it.

But this thing just drags down with uninspiring concepts like Mother and Orphan and uninspiring characters like Harper Row. I once jokingly said she reads like blank paper to me and still does despite what happened to her. What is her personality? What makes her stand out? What does she add that none of the others do? Why does she only read like a bunch of clichés glued together?

Glad Cass is back, tho.

I was with you, until the Harper hate. Harper has a personality, it's Tim that doesn't have an identity at this point, and it's not his fault.

Tynion simply isn't good at writing these characters, for some reason, or another. He's constantly writing these dudes out of character, and I'm practically positive that Orphan CAN'T be the real David Cain. No way that was Snyder's call, as his villains/antagonists are actually depicted rather well.

At least with Rebirth we won't have to deal with another Eternal series anytime soon.

[KrustyKid]

Damian MVP. I for one enjoyed this issue.

[Aahz]

A problem I see with this story, especially now after Orphan is gone, is a lack of villains. With only mother you cant really have great final show down. But based on the prview they gave in beginning of this series it seems anyway as only Dick will face mother in the end, while the rest of the Robins beats up mind controlled children all around the world

I'm opinion the writers really need to start to write these events more like team book and not like a story with one main hero, and lots of side plots.

[sidekick77]

I was with you, until the Harper hate. Harper has a personality, it's Tim that doesn't have an identity at this point, and it's not his fault.

Tynion simply isn't good at writing these characters, for some reason, or another. He's constantly writing these dudes out of character, and I'm practically positive that Orphan CAN'T be the real David Cain. No way that was Snyder's call, as his villains/antagonists are actually depicted rather well.

At least with Rebirth we won't have to deal with another Eternal series anytime soon.

Harper is okay, but her personality is at the expense of something or someone else. I just don't think she has a unique place [functionally] among the bat family, hence I find the attributes given to her increasingly unauthentic. And believe me, I rooted for her when she first first hit the scene because I thought she was going to fulfill a role similar to Harold with occasions of going into the field.

Shoehorning her into another field sidekick role when there is already complaints over redundancy [Tim] or the absence of other players [Steph/Cass] seemed very risky to me in terms of character longevity. I mean, compare to Julia who's purpose/presence is highly motivated by her connection with Alfred and whose skillset has a military foundation to it. Because of that she has so much development and her character feels very welcomed and natural within the context of the role she is given.

With Harper, its a lot of ham-fisted exposition about how she fits in among the others... Harper you're smarter than Tim, angrier than Jason, like gurl I just so misjudged you... It could actually be this book and how terrible the dialogue is, but they are really selling her hard and it shows.

[Aioros22]

I was with you, until the Harper hate. Harper has a personality, it's Tim that doesn't have an identity at this point, and it's not his fault.

Tynion simply isn't good at writing these characters, for some reason, or another. He's constantly writing these dudes out of character, and I'm practically positive that Orphan CAN'T be the real David Cain. No way that was Snyder's call, as his villains/antagonists are actually depicted rather well.

At least with Rebirth we won't have to deal with another Eternal series anytime soon.

Ah it`s not hate really. For it to be hate I would be somewhat invested. I hate Bob Kane because I`m invested in voicing against his douchebagness and amazing lack of creativity. My opinion of Harper is that all her praise is second handed to her the wrong way. Like sideckick mentions in more detail, she`s extra + of the qualities picked apart for the weekly from the boys.

That`s not the healthy or subtle way to bring a character in. But that`s just me. You can say Jason`s new origin back then wasn`t subtle either, but the quirkiness or sassiness of his character wasn`t built at the expense of Dick. Stuff like him smoking and eating chillydogs hiding because Batman wouldn`t eat one to save his life are the stuff that builds a personality. Saying he stole to survive but didn`t enjoyed doing it builds the morality he had. And so on.

Thats scene with Damian really needed to be in the main title as the opening salvo instead of Bruce simply saying they all honored the name Robin at the portrait shoot. To me Bruce endorsing Jason would be explained to Damian as Bruce finally understanding where Jason came from, getting in his shoes. Admitting (and we need moments of Bruce being human) that Batman has places even he can`t go and people he can`t reach out because of the very same thing he protects. Not the goons or supervillains per-se, tho Jason obviously also targets those, but the mercenaries that get paid by governments and the wealthy. Slavers who run child guild rings for labour or porn. Those men and women need a boogeyman that shows up at their door and dismantle their organizations apart without having to deal with the weight and double edginess of the Law. Those that use the Law to say protected against Superman and Batman.

I enjoyed RATHO imensily and his trade on mystical MA organizations running wild and adventurers and mercenary and they`re all valid for an "Outlaw"..and I would include those mostly among things Batman won`t deal with today. From a certain point, the moment Batman becomes endorsed himself by Law and the JL, that`s it. So the argument from the side of Law would be laid out. Jason doesn`t laugh at it but doesn`t trust it either. And he knows better than they do.

Emotionally, I would simply have Bruce admitting that the main reason Jason goes for the lethal measures when need be and the rest of them won`t, is because Jason relationship with looking from a victim`s perspective is sharper than theirs. Just look at his whole life. His whole training, his whole struggles, even Ducras teachings to him. The old chip on the shoulder is actually Jason having a sharper perspective from the victim`s side. And again, he knows better. Or at the very least Batman trusts him on it. Why? Because even his training post death revolved around that notion. Ducra initially refused to train him because it would unleash death on the world and she was right: see UTRH. But post that emotionally story, what does Jason do? Does he get lost endlessly in a loop? No. He came back. He grew. He admitted his flaws. He controlled himself further. It`s not about being pefect because he isn`t but it`s about Batman trusting that glint that he has. He knows that Jason can and has come back from that road he fears the most. Thus, he entrusts him with it.

Moreso, I would write Jason redemption examples further as him honoring the likes or Ducra and Kory and making amends to people he wronged. Right now I would wrap this whole story with Jason kicking Damian around a bit and then handling info about some safehouses of Talia in case she`s alive. Or better, the moment Cassandra runs amok until the end, and she likely will, Jason to be the one to tell her he knows what she`s been trought and he`s on to teaching her to control the Assassin Fist or something. Thus, borrowing the idea of my fellow hooder, she becomes an Outlaw member. Hell, I would have him say to JD that the reason he chose to help her was to amend for any bystander caught between his war on Batman and Joker, if there was any in the reboot or that the reason he`s been helping Bruce so much would be for the same reasons. A nice code of honor here.

I know that for some it`s about the rule against killing and Batman endorsing it- and not where each stands with the law. But just that distinction alone solves most of the issues of crossovers. They aren`t endorsing killing on its own. They are entrusting someone who deals with it better than they ever could. Like Jason once said, it`s not about killing everyone but the Joker is different. Same rules kind of apply. It`s not endorsing a killer. It`s endorsing Jason.

Having examples of redemption only shine in something that was always there, which is his heart. I don`t envy writers having to deal with this sort of complexity when charaters like Dick are straightforward. He`s good, he`s clean, he`s what the Batman aspires to be but as a young collected person instead.

[Lady Nightwing]

Well, Alfred and Barbara have yet to get the chance (or did they get it and I miss it?).

I just hope that Alfred is left out of this trend.
But Babs was the first of this nonsense in the New 52, if i recall correctly.

https://wtfdccomics.files.wordpress....g-new-52-3.jpg

And maaaan, David Cain saying "Please mother, let me be your child again" was painful to read.

I think Babs slapped him in Batgirl 45 as well but don't hold me to it.

I think Jason's stance on crime fighting makes the most logical sense but I hate that Bruce endorses it. It cheapens him a little. His disgust of gun violence and murder may some times have been heavy handed and archaic but I viewed as a solid character trait. A little personality flaw that made Bruce more likable. It just seems like the writers and editors couldn't find a good way to reconcile Bruce's beliefs and Jason's methods and shoe horned in a lame explanation.

[Aahz]

That`s not the healthy or subtle way to bring a character in. But that`s just me. You can say Jason`s new origin back then wasn`t subtle either, but the quirkiness or sassiness of his character wasn`t built at the expense of Dick. Stuff like him smoking and eating chillydogs hiding because Batman wouldn`t eat one to save his life are the stuff that builds a personality. Saying he stole to survive but didn`t enjoyed doing it builds the morality he had. And so on.

but that wasn't a new character that was changing an existing character to make him more unique, I don't think that they could have taken much more issues for his new origin that they did.
And I think it is still kind of a pity that they didn't used the street kid origin as first origin, since pre crisis they had much more time to let Jason become Robin, and it was quite well written.

I really think that the writers need to find an other role for Jason in the Batfamily than the one who died and came back and the one who uses guns and kills. Especially since they hardly let him use guns (iirc he din't hit anybody with a bullet in B&RE) and don't let him kill in the cross overs, or let him do anything else thats to extreme or the other Batfamily members.And I doubt that we will see anytime soon an event, were Jasons saves in the end the day by using lethal force.
But apparently they also don't want to make him better in anything than the other Robins. Sofar he was in B&RE of the 5 main characters the one, that was least relevant for the plot.