Batgirl, #49

[Chickfighter]

I disagree. People who have been through horrible things can move on from them. Keeping TKJ in her canon makes her a positive figure, not a tarnished one. Removing it sends a very negative message to people who have suffered traumatic events.

Respectively, I would argue that keeping TKJ in canon would have meant keeping Barbara Oracle as an active part of the DC universe and that she was a more positive example for disabled people in that role. Making Barbara all better to be Batgirl again seems the negative message to me. But ultimately that's not why I read comics. My interest is simply pure escapist entertainment, not real life messages. So we'll just have to disagree about whether keeping a traumatic past works for a lighter version of the character. It doesn't for me.

[JasonTodd428]

At the start of the N52 there was no reason on earth to keep TKJ canon because in that particular world she was never Oracle anyway. She could have simply been shot in the line of duty as Batgirl or maybe because she was protecting someone else during a shooting incident while she was out as a civilian. Heck, they could have still had Joker be the one that pulled the trigger even. I think that's maybe the point some people here are making. TKJ simply doesn't have to be the reason she was paralyzed in the N52 universe. Personally, I wasn't happy that they made the story canon to begin with so if they made it be non-canon again I'd be thrilled. If, however, they are not making that move then I'd rather this be the last time it's referenced and that they leave it behind for a good long while. The reference here really could be read either way. It could be a false memory or it could actually be a real one put there to throw both the readers and characters off.

[Timbales]

Respectively, I would argue that keeping TKJ in canon would have meant keeping Barbara Oracle as an active part of the DC universe and that she was a more positive example for disabled people in that role. Making Barbara all better to be Batgirl again seems the negative message to me. But ultimately that's not why I read comics. My interest is simply pure escapist entertainment, not real life messages. So we'll just have to disagree about whether keeping a traumatic past works for a lighter version of the character. It doesn't for me.

I can understand that. The erasure of Oracle is a mistake, in my opinion. I think comics fans would accept in the world of advanced tech and magic, Barbara could eventually move out of the wheelchair.

Erasing TKJ and Oracle from existence fits with Barbara in first issue of the re-re-boot not being as smart or cautious as her character had historically been.

[JasonTodd428]

I can understand that. The erasure of Oracle is a mistake, in my opinion. I think comics fans would accept in the world of advanced tech and magic, Barbara could eventually move out of the wheelchair.

Erasing TKJ and Oracle from existence fits with Barbara in first issue of the re-re-boot not being as smart or cautious as her character had historically been.

It probably was a mistake if they intended to keep TKJ canon but since they didn't keep Barbara's time as Oracle canon the story itself simply doesn't fit with this portrayal of the character and it never really has since the reboot. If this was pre-Flashpoint and DC wanted to remove the story from canon I would agree with the rest of you that it's taking something essential from her character but I simply don't feel that's the case with post-Flashpoint Barbara.

[Babs]

... And it's clear that Fletcher and Stewart have no intention of using the Killing Joke for whatever future storylines they have plotted out, so it becomes a moot point.

I really really want a Batgirl meets Supergirl story. I mean damn... 5 years, and they still haven't done the obligatory "girls night out" issue. The Batgirl of Burnside has so much DCAU Batgirl in her, it would be awesome to see now.

[TooFlyToFail]

Well, I think what they are trying to do with both Barbara and Jason is position them to move firmly forward. I think they have likely wanted to do this with both of them for some time, but now with Rebirth coming up they see a chance to leverage that opportunity. With this and what they did with Jason and A Death in the Family in Batman and Robin Eternal, the editors (and I have no doubt this is completely coming from the editors in both cases) are saying, "You know TKJ and DITF were great stories, and so were Oracle and UTRH, and you are welcome to read the trades and watch the movies. As far as the comics continuity goes, we guess you can believe what's important to you. But it's been thirty years, and to be honest, we're over these stories. We've said what we can. We've gone where we can go. Times have changed, and there are some things that large segments of society just don't find acceptable anymore, like violence against women and child soldiers. So we aren't going to take these stories away from you. But, as far as the comics go, from now on we really don't want to talk about them very much."

Now, you may or may not find that wise. Some would call it craven, although one person's cowardice is another person's good judgment. I don't know if they will stick to this. But, for the moment, this does appear to be what they are trying to do.

You know...that would make sense if DC wasn't mining TDKR, UtH, Oracle and TKJ, for film adaptations.

Oh, and the whole violence against women, and children...then stop having them being heroes in potentially lethal positions, or heroes at all. Right? I mean nothing tragic should ever be allowed to happen to people, right? They're only fighting psychopathic murders almost all the time.

So, yeah, I don't think that's the case, because it CERTAINLY looks like we're going to be getting DITF, and potentially Oracle, elements in BvS.

[TooFlyToFail]

It probably was a mistake if they intended to keep TKJ canon but since they didn't keep Barbara's time as Oracle canon the story itself simply doesn't fit with this portrayal of the character and it never really has since the reboot. If this was pre-Flashpoint and DC wanted to remove the story from canon I would agree with the rest of you that it's taking something essential from her character but I simply don't feel that's the case with post-Flashpoint Barbara.

It's canon now tho, right? As a result of Convergence? If that's the case, than her time as Oracle is there, which makes everything about the Nu52 more confusing lol, but also makes her Oracle too.

Honestly, the only reason why this keeps being a "problem" is because people keep dwelling on it....UNLIKE THE CHARACTER. You can't say it's because of the movie, because that has no bearing on the current comic. You can't say it's because of that Joker Month cover, because that was a variant, and their was to be a one shot about her taking on an army of Joker in badass form (further solidifying that she has long since gotten over it).

[JasonTodd428]

It's canon now tho, right? As a result of Convergence? If that's the case, than her time as Oracle is there, which makes everything about the Nu52 more confusing lol, but also makes her Oracle too.

Honestly, the only reason why this keeps being a "problem" is because people keep dwelling on it....UNLIKE THE CHARACTER. You can't say it's because of the movie, because that has no bearing on the current comic. You can't say it's because of that Joker Month cover, because that was a variant, and their was to be a one shot about her taking on an army of Joker in badass form (further solidifying that she has long since gotten over it).

Convergence in and of itself really didn't change anything canon-wise for any character that I know of, at least not in any official way. Also I sort of feel that if her time as Oracle was still canon then the current team might have made mention of that at some point and they haven't as far as I know.

I agree that the reason TKJ is still a problem is precisely because people keep dwelling on it. The thing is if writer's themselves would stop referencing it altogether then people (fans) wouldn't dwell on it either. It's really a two way street so I'd simply be satisfied if they never mentioned it again in story. Same with Jason's death actually but that's a topic for a different post and not this one.

[Dzetoun]

I agree that the reason TKJ is still a problem is precisely because people keep dwelling on it. The thing is if writer's themselves would stop referencing it altogether then people (fans) wouldn't dwell on it either. It's really a two way street so I'd simply be satisfied if they never mentioned it again in story. Same with Jason's death actually but that's a topic for a different post and not this one.

Yes, that would be by far the best in both cases. I do think the editors of the comics would like to move forward with both characters. Unfortunately, they aren't going to get any help from the movies or animated features, but those are other media under the control of other production authorities, so there isn't anything they can do about that. Still, with Barbara in Batgirl and Jason in Red Hood and Batman and Robin Eternal, they seem to be trying to get those storylines put away and find new paths of character growth that don't necessarily involve or require the stories in question. We will just have to see what REBIRTH brings.

You know...that would make sense if DC wasn't mining TDKR, UtH, Oracle and TKJ, for film adaptations.

Yes, but we are talking about the comics here, and the comics and the other media, while related, are under the control of different editorial and production groups that often go their separate ways. UTRH is probably the most successful of all the Batman animated features, but that hasn't stopped Jason's reconciliation with the Bat Family in the comics. Nor have I seen the Superman of the comics break General Zod's neck.

[Osiris-Rex]

I really really want a Batgirl meets Supergirl story. I mean damn... 5 years, and they still haven't done the obligatory "girls night out" issue. The Batgirl of Burnside has so much DCAU Batgirl in her, it would be awesome to see now.

Even Melissa Benoist wants that to happen on her TV show.