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  1. #46
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    It's debatable if the original Superman is supposed to be super-intelligent; however, the original version had all Kryptonians as superhuman with an advanced society and his father was the best scientist among all the scientists on the planet.

    After that, I would argue, as Superman's powers increase, he must have advanced brain power both as a prerequisite to using those powers and as a byproduct of those powers. I wouldn't say that the intelligence is a power in and of itself, in the way that super-strength or super-speed are discrete abilities. But the intelligence is super because of a collective of other factors. Superman must have a fast brain if he has super-speed. He must have a highly efficient nervous system if he has super strength, super-senses. Superman must have a good memory if he is able to process so much incoming sensory information.

    And so on.

    The dumbing down of Superman, post-Crisis, made no sense. Here's a guy who has all these advantages over us normals, yet his mind is supposed to be unaffected by all that. How?

  2. #47
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayswift View Post
    pre new 52 superman just build his own fortress
    He has become smarter in mid 00s.

  3. #48
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    Here's the problem though, the biggest complaint I have heard against Superman is that some people see him as a boring, perfect, Mary Sue invincible hero. I think a Superman who is super intelligent and is super powerful, I think a lot more people would find him boring and you really limit what can actually challenge him. Even the strongest hero needs an interesting challenge, otherwise there is no story and I think if Superman is both super powerful and super intelligent, he can really only fight God like characters.

    How is Lex a threat to Superman, if he is both as intelligent if not more intelligent then Lex and has a million super powers that Lex doesn't have? Could you have an interesting mystery in a Superman title, that he couldn't solve in one page?

  4. #49
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I just can't stand the notion that Superman watches atoms drift by, molecules form, galaxies spiral, and he has no understanding of what's going on. He is just constantly oblivious to all that information flooding his senses beyond any human capability. How could he just be average intelligence? He's just smarter, nobody has to teach him. He learns quicker and he figures out everything else.
    Sure that's absolutely a way you can look at Superman. I totally agree. But then again you don't HAVE TO.

    I remember this one part from Birthright that has always stuck with me. It's when Clark is messaging his mom and he starts to go on about all the things he can see. He talks about all of the colors he'd have to make up names for just to describe a bit of what they looked like. Clark brings this up because he saw his friend die not too long ago, and he's trying to convey what it looks and feels like when another person dies.

    I think the idea of Superman putting his own interpretations to the amazing things that he can see is far more compelling to me than him just knowing without the shadow of a doubt. I mean how fun would it be if Clark is trying to explain what he sees to Ray Palmer.

    Clark: "I don't Ray, guess it's like a wooomwooom squishy sort of thing that connects to this other thing that's all like crooommmm" (the whole time Clark is making ridiculous jiggly shapes with his hands)

    Ray: ".......I'm not entirely sure you're not messin', man"

    Lol I think that'd be pretty funny.

    But on a more philosophical and semi serous note: just like everyone else on the planet, Clark is looking at the world around him and trying to ascribe meaning to the infinite void that he's only just a little part of. The only difference is that he just sees a good deal more than we do. I think that's a pretty romantic and interesting take.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 03-02-2016 at 07:09 PM.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    In Paul Jenkins Sentry series, the Sentry, Marvels Evil Superman, is puzzled why the Hulk was still brutish. He asks him, "Why haven't you evolved?" The Sentry is confused that this physically superior being would not have the mind to match. The mind is part of Supermans power.

    Golden Age Superman is all Man of Action. But I think Siegel calls him the evolved man, that is vague enough to mean anything. Post Crisis, Tom Strong, Supreme, and Morrisons JLA were where I got my Superman fix. I've learned to like most any Superman but don't tell me he has just be a tank.
    Last edited by Johnny Thunders!; 03-02-2016 at 07:13 PM.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    How is Lex a threat to Superman, if he is both as intelligent if not more intelligent then Lex and has a million super powers that Lex doesn't have? Could you have an interesting mystery in a Superman title, that he couldn't solve in one page?
    A. Well, Doctor Doom is only a little smarter than Reed Richards, while Richards has powers, and also backup in a family with powers. But Doom typically fights the FF to a standstill at worst. It's not that much of a stretch. And even if Superman has super-intellect, he just doesn't have the time to develop and apply it that Lex does.

    B. He has the brains for it, but it's not as simple as that. He's emotionally invested (especially if you follow the Birthright idea that dead bodies actively disturb him), and that can disrupt his concentration in a way it wouldn't for Batman, who's trained his whole life to shut down and get the job done.
    Buh-bye

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    A. Well, Doctor Doom is only a little smarter than Reed Richards, while Richards has powers, and also backup in a family with powers. But Doom typically fights the FF to a standstill at worst. It's not that much of a stretch. And even if Superman has super-intellect, he just doesn't have the time to develop and apply it that Lex does.

    B. He has the brains for it, but it's not as simple as that. He's emotionally invested (especially if you follow the Birthright idea that dead bodies actively disturb him), and that can disrupt his concentration in a way it wouldn't for Batman, who's trained his whole life to shut down and get the job done.
    Doom also has superior resources to Reed, with being a dictator and such. I also think Superman powers are more "game breaking" then most of the FF's powers, if people insist Superman having powers with no upper limit and super intelligence, you are putting him in a really small box. Any story where Toyman appears should only last a page and then end up in some sort inescapable, yet humane prison Superman designed for the government.

    I also feel Doom has a better tract record of learning from his mistakes and adapting his tactics then Lex does, Lex makes the same mistakes over and over again, Doom is somewhat emotionally stunted, but even he has superior intelligence to Lex. If Superman is going to be super intelligent, Lex has to stop coasting and get over some his mental mental blind spots and start really being serious what being ruthlessly efficient and stop falling into super villain cliches that could be avoided if he read the Evil Overlord list:

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ilOverlordList

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    Superman fights big foes, Mxyzptlk, the Parasite, Bizarro, Mongul, Braniac, Zod, even Toyman brings big robots. I say you open the box up when you let go of the throttle on Superman. The Fatal Five, Mordru, the Time Trapper, Amazo, Captain Thunder, Captain Comet, The new Gods, The Kryptonite Man, the entire Phantom Zone, plus Lex, a nightmare scientist that can build anything. Even Solomon Grundy is a terrific Superman foe. The Justice League and Avengers are all powerful, but they're not boring. The threats are big and that's Supermans scale.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    Superman fights big foes, Mxyzptlk, the Parasite, Bizarro, Mongul, Braniac, Zod, even Toyman brings big robots. I say you open the box up when you let go of the throttle on Superman. The Fatal Five, Mordru, the Time Trapper, Amazo, Captain Thunder, Captain Comet, The new Gods, The Kryptonite Man, the entire Phantom Zone, plus Lex, a nightmare scientist that can build anything. Even Solomon Grundy is a terrific Superman foe. The Justice League and Avengers are all powerful, but they're not boring. The threats are big and that's Supermans scale.
    Yes for all reasons given and for a very low common denominator reason: I don't want Superman to be the second class citizen of the Trinity.

  10. #55
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    I would say that a lot of DC's super-heroes should be smarter than they are on account of their extraordinary powers and resources.

    It makes no sense that Batman can wipe the floor with them, when he's supposed to be a regular human being. The Atom, Cyborg, the Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, the Spectre, Swamp Thing, Hawkman (from Thanagar), Firestorm, Martian Manhunter--they should all be of higher intelligence or able to access higher intelligence over Batman.

    Batman should be good at solving conventional crimes--but he shouldn't have intelligence beyond that.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    Superman fights big foes, Mxyzptlk, the Parasite, Bizarro, Mongul, Braniac, Zod, even Toyman brings big robots. I say you open the box up when you let go of the throttle on Superman. The Fatal Five, Mordru, the Time Trapper, Amazo, Captain Thunder, Captain Comet, The new Gods, The Kryptonite Man, the entire Phantom Zone, plus Lex, a nightmare scientist that can build anything. Even Solomon Grundy is a terrific Superman foe. The Justice League and Avengers are all powerful, but they're not boring. The threats are big and that's Supermans scale.
    You do realize if Superman used his super speed well he could dominate a lot of those guys easily, Grundy is useless if Superman can punch him a thousand times a second and Toyman's big robots should be speed bumps to a hyper competent almost all powerful Superman. He can likely dominate Mongul with Super speed and easily outhitting and outfight the likes of Parasite and Bizarro, likely could easily out think Mxy if his usual limitations apply. It seems like you are considering the finer details of how a super competent super powerful superman would dominate a lot of his rogues gallery. If you make Superman too powerful and too smart, he really does become game breaker, guys like Parasite and especially Toyman wouldn't cut it anymore.

    You can't have it both ways, you can't have a Superman that is super intelligent and super powerful and still try to maintain that most of his rogues gallery is still relevant and threatening, some could keep up, but a lot of them wouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbduck View Post
    Yes for all reasons given and for a very low common denominator reason: I don't want Superman to be the second class citizen of the Trinity.
    Except the same logic I would apply to Superman, I would equally apply to Batman and Wonder Woman.

    The Batgod who outsmarts gods in the JLA, doesn't seem like the same guy who has trouble dealing with a guy with a hat fetish in Gotham.

    I feel the balance between making your heroes look amazing and still provide them with good challenges is a problem with writing any character. There is a balance to strike between these two story telling elements.

    I have no use for Mary Sue characters.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 03-02-2016 at 09:08 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    Except the same logic I would apply to Superman, I would equally apply to Batman and Wonder Woman.

    The Batgod who outsmarts gods in the JLA, doesn't seem like the same guy who has trouble dealing with a guy with a hat fetish in Gotham.

    I feel the balance between making your heroes look amazing and still provide them with good challenges is a problem with writing any character. There is a balance to strike between these two story telling elements.

    I have no use for Mary Sue characters.
    With the reality of the comic book creator market as it is today, full of Batman, Wonder Woman, and BM/WW fans, it's either reinforce strongly that Superman is brilliant or it'll be Superman fans reading stories with Bruce Galt, Diana Taggart, and that dumb farmboy that tags along.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbduck View Post
    With the reality of the comic book creator market as it is today, full of Batman, Wonder Woman, and BM/WW fans, it's either reinforce strongly that Superman is brilliant or it'll be Superman fans reading stories with Bruce Galt, Diana Taggart, and that dumb farmboy that tags along.
    I feel like there is a balance between these two extremes, I like a Superman that is above normal intelligence, not a dumb hick, but not super intelligent absolutely perfect Mary Sue guy either.

    I also feel like intelligence is not something that easily measured, I think Batman can be smart in some ways, but Superman would know more in certain areas. For example, I think Superman would have better emotional intelligence then Batman, he would be better leader and would understand people better.

    I also feel like Superman is a good jack of all trades character, Flash may be faster, maybe Batman is a better tactician, but he is nearly as fast, he is pretty smart and he has a bunch of abilities no one else on the team has, that is what makes him indefensible, the fact that he does have some competence in all these fields, even if he is not master of all them. If Superman becomes super perfect Mary Sue man, who is the master of everything, why even have the Justice League, why not just have Superman solve every problem in the universe in five minutes? I have the same problem with Batgod, no character should come off as so perfect that almost nothing can challenge them.
    Last edited by The Overlord; 03-02-2016 at 09:24 PM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
    I feel like there is a balance between these two extremes, I like a Superman that is above normal intelligence, not a dumb hick, but not super intelligent absolutely perfect Mary Sue guy either.

    I also feel like intelligence is not something that easily measured, I think Batman can be smart in some ways, but Superman would know more in certain areas. For example, I think Superman would have better emotional intelligence then Batman, he would be better leader and would understand people better.

    I also feel like Superman is a good jack of all trades character, Flash may be faster, maybe Batman is a better tactician, but he is nearly as fast, he is pretty smart and he has a bunch of abilities no one else on the team has, that is what makes him indefensible, the fact that he does have some competence in all these fields, even if he is not master of all them. If Superman becomes super perfect Mary Sue man, who is the master of everything, why even have the Justice League, why not just have Superman solve every problem in the universe in five minutes? I have the same problem with Batgod, no character should come off as so perfect that almost nothing can challenge them.
    I wouldn't be satisfied with this but I would accept it. The trouble is to convince DC/Warner and... I dunno, 90% of the writers waiting in the wings for Trinity to reign in the Batgod and BM/WW fanfic.

    Absolutely not ironic/sarcastic/angry quick answer (I'm laughing as I type this): They won't.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbduck View Post
    I wouldn't be satisfied with this but I would accept it. The trouble is to convince DC/Warner and... I dunno, 90% of the writers waiting in the wings for Trinity to reign in the Batgod and BM/WW fanfic.

    Absolutely not ironic/sarcastic/angry quick answer (I'm laughing as I type this): They won't.
    I think Superman as the jack of all trades character makes him very useful but not so dominate that he makes everyone else on the JLA seem useless. Think about it, if Superman fans don't like Batgod undercutting Superman, I doubt Batman fans would like it if Superman became Mary Sue man and made everyone else look useless. I think the DCU should balance all its characters, so they seem useful, they all play to their strengths, rather thewn having one character suck all the oxygen out of the room and make everyone else look useless. Superman should have strengths and weaknesses. like every other DC character.

    Its hard for Superman to be any sort of symbol of anything, if he is perfect and just dominates everything, that doesn't inspire people, it makes Superman look he does the right thing because its just easy for him, rather then him doing the right thing no matter, but him in situations where the right thing to do, is the hared thing to do, rather then the easy thing to do.

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