Does Superman HAVE TO have super intelligence?

[dumbduck]

I think Superman as the jack of all trades character makes him very useful but not so dominate that he makes everyone else on the JLA seem useless. Think about it, if Superman fans don't like Batgod undercutting Superman, I doubt Batman fans would like it if Superman became Mary Sue man and made everyone else look useless. I think the DCU should balance all its characters, so they seem useful, they all play to their strengths, rather thewn having one character suck all the oxygen out of the room and make everyone else look useless. Superman should have strengths and weaknesses. like every other DC character.

Its hard for Superman to be any sort of symbol of anything, if he is perfect and just dominates everything, that doesn't inspire people, it makes Superman look he does the right thing because its just easy for him, rather then him doing the right thing no matter, but him in situations where the right thing to do, is the hared thing to do, rather then the easy thing to do.

Again, your reasoning and logic are fine. The problem is the reality of the comic book market today.

[Superlad93]

I think Superman as the jack of all trades character makes him very useful but not so dominate that he makes everyone else on the JLA seem useless. Think about it, if Superman fans don't like Batgod undercutting Superman, I doubt Batman fans would like it if Superman became Mary Sue man and made everyone else look useless. I think the DCU should balance all its characters, so they seem useful, they all play to their strengths, rather thewn having one character suck all the oxygen out of the room and make everyone else look useless. Superman should have strengths and weaknesses. like every other DC character.

I see your reasoning, and I agree and I don't agree at the same time.

When you engineer a character in any meaningful way it shouldn't be in reaction to another character in the same universe. It's not a fighting game that needs to be adjusted and balanced to keep characters from being broken. It's a collection of stories that form a greater world.

When I started this thread it wasn't because I thought Superman's intelligence made him broken or not. That would be for the sake of characters that are not Superman or in his world. I asked this question as a very real exploration of this particular facet of the character and western culture's narrow views of what counts as genius. He's the man of tomorrow so forward thinking was my goal in theory.

With all that said, I think Superman should primarily be known for his strength, durability, and perceptive powers (physical or otherwise). That was what the character was built on so I think (if you HAD TO (even if I think you shouldn't)) it should be his "thing".

But stories on these characters (teams books included) are very fluid so I don't believe in ascribing walls for the sake of other characters. Like the reason I want Flash to be the fastest man alive is because his stories are like these dramas about physics (theoretical or otherwise) and his ability to constantly reinvent how speed is used in these physics dramas gives him credence to be that fast. For Batman, it's about a man that, through sheer force of will, became a creed--a symbol. For Batman being smart and almost comically hyper competent is how he transcends the physical limitations of his form.

I apologize for the long windedness of what should've been a pretty short explination lol

[The True Detective]

I would say that a lot of DC's super-heroes should be smarter than they are on account of their extraordinary powers and resources.

It makes no sense that Batman can wipe the floor with them, when he's supposed to be a regular human being. The Atom, Cyborg, the Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, the Spectre, Swamp Thing, Hawkman (from Thanagar), Firestorm, Martian Manhunter--they should all be of higher intelligence or able to access higher intelligence over Batman.

Batman should be good at solving conventional crimes--but he shouldn't have intelligence beyond that.

Using that logic shouldn't all of those heroes be smarter than the also human Lex Luthor, who is considered much smarter than all of them? Why/how is human Lex a threat to a super intelligent being with access to advanced alien tech? Besides if all of those heroes were smarter than Batman what use is he to the League? Has no powers and isn't as smart as the rest of us doesn't sound like someone the JL would invite to their team. His having no powers is why he has to be one of the smarter heroes.

[Agent Z]

While not mentioned, those listed superheroes where members of a group known as the illuminati which included Namor and black Bolt who are both known to be pretty strong.



Given earth's governments unwillingness to tackle climate change, humanity doesn't seem to be that great either.

Namor and Black Bolt aren't scientists.

[Agniwolf]

Using that logic shouldn't all of those heroes be smarter than the also human Lex Luthor, who is considered much smarter than all of them? Why/how is human Lex a threat to a super intelligent being with access to advanced alien tech? Besides if all of those heroes were smarter than Batman what use is he to the League? Has no powers and isn't as smart as the rest of us doesn't sound like someone the JL would invite to their team. His having no powers is why he has to be one of the smarter heroes.

imho the true value of batman to the league is the aspect of espionage/stealth operations possibility, he is not meant to be a front line type of character

and that is what pisses me off and makes me dislike the guy latelly, they forgot the "shadows" that makes the character so interesting, "i am the night" is nothing but a joke now

superman should be the forefront guy, the "guild leader", wonder woman is the one to have true battlefield knowledge making her the party/raid leader, so yeah for me batman stealth feels wasted just to make him more inteligent than superman, cause he is human =/

[Agent Z]

With the reality of the comic book creator market as it is today, full of Batman, Wonder Woman, and BM/WW fans, it's either reinforce strongly that Superman is brilliant or it'll be Superman fans reading stories with Bruce Galt, Diana Taggart, and that dumb farmboy that tags along.

You really think Superman has it worst than Diana? And where are you getting the idea that the market is full of BM/WW fans?

[Dispenser Of Truth]

You really think Superman has it worst than Diana? And where are you getting the idea that the market is full of BM/WW fans?

Given its presence in the JLU, I have to imagine it has enormously more play in the general public consciousness than Superman and Wonder Woman.

[Agniwolf]

You really think Superman has it worst than Diana? And where are you getting the idea that the market is full of BM/WW fans?

timmverse, timmverse still lives in the memory of many people, especialy now that there is no ongoing series in the tv telling the opposite

[Agent Z]

Given its presence in the JLU, I have to imagine it has enormously more play in the general public consciousness than Superman and Wonder Woman.

I don't think it's by much. I've seen a few BM/WW teases but compared to the SM/WW thing, it's never reached the same level. I've seen a lot of pictures of couples who dress as Clark and Diana as together. There is much more support to see Bruce and Selina together than for him to be with Diana. She's not even mentioned in Batman Beyond.

[The True Detective]

imho the true value of batman to the league is the aspect of espionage/stealth operations possibility, he is not meant to be a front line type of character

and that is what pisses me off and makes me dislike the guy latelly, they forgot the "shadows" that makes the character so interesting, "i am the night" is nothing but a joke now

superman should be the forefront guy, the "guild leader", wonder woman is the one to have true battlefield knowledge making her the party/raid leader, so yeah for me batman stealth feels wasted just to make him more inteligent than superman, cause he is human =/

How does Batman being intelligent take away from his stealth abilities? And regular/peak human characters have been on the front lines on super teams for years. I don't get when people say Batman's intelligence takes away from his stealth or detective abilities like the 2 have to be mutually exclusive. No one says superpowered characters being smart takes away from their powers. Does Luthor's scientific genius take away from his criminal genius and cunning? Does Dr. Doom's scientific genius take away from his magical abilities and cunning? No, characters can have more than one trait.

[Jim Kelly]

The other part of "Jack of all trades" is "Master of none."

Batman has become a jack of all trades, but he's also portrayed as a master of all of them. Whereas, with most popular fictional detectives, the detective thing is the thing they're good at, but they're usually not good at a lot of other things in their life. They might not have emotional intelligence, or they might be disorganized, or they might be too egotistical. I think, when Batman is the master of everything, it takes away from his appeal and hurts him as a character. Let him be more flawed, more human.

Lex Luthor dedicated his whole life to becoming a scientific genius. That's where his expertise lies--and his scientific intelligence is devoted to criminality. That gives him both advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that Lex can fight dirty and do things that the moral codes of heroes would prevent them from doing. But the disadvantage is that Luthor's megalomania and his obsession with destroying Superman distracts him from the other uses for his genius.

And each of the super-heroes would have a specific kind of intelligence, given how their powers work. For Superman, because he has no many different powers, he would have one of the greatest minds, but those powers would also produce some impairments. Superman can't think like Batman, because he can't figure out humans as well as Batman can. Batman understands human motivations and can anticipate what a criminal might do. Whereas, Superman may not be able to do that so well. That's why Superman becomes Clark Kent and develops relationships with people like Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen. Superman is trying to educate himself on the lives of non-powered humans, so he can understand them better.

[Prime]

Mr. Majestic ( is that his name?) Never had any problems with it. I don't think he should be the smartest guy in the room, but he should be pretty capable. He is Superman after all.

[Prime]

The other part of "Jack of all trades" is "Master of none."

Batman has become a jack of all trades, but he's also portrayed as a master of all of them. Whereas, with most popular fictional detectives, the detective thing is the thing they're good at, but they're usually not good at a lot of other things in their life. They might not have emotional intelligence, or they might be disorganized, or they might be too egotistical. I think, when Batman is the master of everything, it takes away from his appeal and hurts him as a character. Let him be more flawed, more human.

Lex Luthor dedicated his whole life to becoming a scientific genius. That's where his expertise lies--and his scientific intelligence is devoted to criminality. That gives him both advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that Lex can fight dirty and do things that the moral codes of heroes would prevent them from doing. But the disadvantage is that Luthor's megalomania and his obsession with destroying Superman distracts him from the other uses for his genius.

And each of the super-heroes would have a specific kind of intelligence, given how their powers work. For Superman, because he has no many different powers, he would have one of the greatest minds, but those powers would also produce some impairments. Superman can't think like Batman, because he can't figure out humans as well as Batman can. Batman understands human motivations and can anticipate what a criminal might do. Whereas, Superman may not be able to do that so well. That's why Superman becomes Clark Kent and develops relationships with people like Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen. Superman is trying to educate himself on the lives of non-powered humans, so he can understand them better.

That looks like you are using Kill Bill Superman.

[Jim Kelly]

That looks like you are using Kill Bill Superman.

Well, Jules Feiffer said it first. I don't go so far as they do, but I agree in part that Clark Kent is Superman's impersonation of what humans are like, but his powers prevent him from fully understanding the human experience. Or maybe I should say Earthling--because I do think Superman is human in the broad sense, he's not just not a fully Earthling human.

[Tayswift]

Mr. Majestic ( is that his name?) Never had any problems with it. I don't think he should be the smartest guy in the room, but he should be pretty capable. He is Superman after all.

majestic barely had solos that were low sellings, not a good example

The other part of "Jack of all trades" is "Master of none."

Batman has become a jack of all trades, but he's also portrayed as a master of all of them. Whereas, with most popular fictional detectives, the detective thing is the thing they're good at, but they're usually not good at a lot of other things in their life. They might not have emotional intelligence, or they might be disorganized, or they might be too egotistical. I think, when Batman is the master of everything, it takes away from his appeal and hurts him as a character. Let him be more flawed, more human.

Lex Luthor dedicated his whole life to becoming a scientific genius. That's where his expertise lies--and his scientific intelligence is devoted to criminality. That gives him both advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is that Lex can fight dirty and do things that the moral codes of heroes would prevent them from doing. But the disadvantage is that Luthor's megalomania and his obsession with destroying Superman distracts him from the other uses for his genius.

And each of the super-heroes would have a specific kind of intelligence, given how their powers work. For Superman, because he has no many different powers, he would have one of the greatest minds, but those powers would also produce some impairments. Superman can't think like Batman, because he can't figure out humans as well as Batman can. Batman understands human motivations and can anticipate what a criminal might do. Whereas, Superman may not be able to do that so well. That's why Superman becomes Clark Kent and develops relationships with people like Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen. Superman is trying to educate himself on the lives of non-powered humans, so he can understand them better.

he doesn't become clark kent, he is clark kent

I don't think it's by much. I've seen a few BM/WW teases but compared to the SM/WW thing, it's never reached the same level. I've seen a lot of pictures of couples who dress as Clark and Diana as together. There is much more support to see Bruce and Selina together than for him to be with Diana. She's not even mentioned in Batman Beyond.

It's because their costumes match, only that, and I see much more lois and clark and some batww too. BMWW fandom is much bigger and diverse, but many are out of comics. I have friendship with many folks there, the JLU did had a big influence on how readers see DC characters