Singer-Actress Zendaya cast in MCU Spider-Man film

[Highland Chicken]

Unless race plays a huge part, I honestly don't see the problem in racebending characters.
Characters such as Iron fist, Luke Cage, black panther etc would be completely different if their race changed.
MJ, Peter, Flash wouldn't. Hell I'd go far as to say Miles would be barely different if his race was changed.
That being said, Tony Revolori should be playing an OC. The only thing he shares with Flash is being a bully, and that doesn't include bullying methods.

[Moral_Gutpunch]

Putting a bit too much of your own ideas into this one.

Maybe about scholarships, but wouldn't Jameson or Peter both be online with thier businesses these days?

A teen making money doing real work makes more sense than being an overnight sensation on youtube.

Ned is such an obscure Spidey character at this point that I imagine they can do whatever they want with him.

Then why not make an entirely new character instead? Ned's not the only minor character they're adding or have added. Luke Cage is introducing the Serpent Society, we've gotten hints about the Owl and Stiltsman,and Homecoming is slated to have Sally, Mr. Harrington, and the Ms. Warren (the Jackal's wife).

Maybe he'll just be like Crossbones and make a brief appearance, and then get killed off in another movie.

As if this movie doesn't have enough characters in it already. (I really like the Robertsons.)

I think it already has too many (like a lot of Spider-Man movies). I really just think they could have waited for Ned and Betty and focused on Flash's buddies (there's five of them including him and Liz). The Robertsons would make more sense to appear while he's in high school if he ever visits the Bugle.

Isn't the school some kind of science school in the movie?

Like the Future Fundation? I though he joined that after high school. What's Flash doing there then? Or Ned? Or Betty, who dropped out of generic high school?

Man, this movie is confusing.

[Kevinroc]

Maybe about scholarships, but wouldn't Jameson or Peter both be online with thier businesses these days?

A teen making money doing real work makes more sense than being an overnight sensation on youtube.

You seem to be putting too much of what's in your own head into this.

Then why not make an entirely new character instead? Ned's not the only minor character they're adding or have added. Luke Cage is introducing the Serpent Society, we've gotten hints about the Owl and Stiltsman,and Homecoming is slated to have Sally, Mr. Harrington, and the Ms. Warren (the Jackal's wife).

Maybe he'll just be like Crossbones and make a brief appearance, and then get killed off in another movie.

For all intents and purposes, wouldn't Ned be a new character using the name of an obscure character? I don't see why people are so upset about this usage. They want to pay homage to Lee/Ditko/Romita.

I think it already has too many (like a lot of Spider-Man movies). I really just think they could have waited for Ned and Betty and focused on Flash's buddies (there's five of them including him and Liz). The Robertsons would make more sense to appear while he's in high school if he ever visits the Bugle.

I really like the Robertsons.

Like the Future Fundation? I though he joined that after high school. What's Flash doing there then? Or Ned? Or Betty, who dropped out of generic high school?

Man, this movie is confusing.

Definitely not the Future Foundation. Not with Fox still having those FF rights.

[Cosmic Spider]

Spider-Man's Rogue's gallery is both diverse and amazing, they could go with a lower powered character like Shocker and it'd be fine. I mean, Herman Schultz was on that leaked casting sheet.



I mean....if the rumors are to be believed it didn't stop them from casting a non-white person in a white person role.



It wouldn't matter if she's white or black or silver or green if that's what she was, but that's not who she is. I fully expect Doctor Strange to be a good movie, but race/gender swapping the Ancient One is a crappy move. That's not who the character is. Characters have characteristics, and adaptations should try and stick to those characteristics as best as possible. That's what makes them adaptations and not just rip-offs.

I understand your point. and I personally prefer the Peter and MJ I grew up with. Make Captain America Black, Sure...Change a single hair on Peter or MJ's head and I'm ready to scream murder.

I was curious to find out if changing Peter or MJ's race would change my perception of those characters. I noted that the World did not end when Candace Patton assumed the role of Iris West on CW's Flash. Okay, Then I broke out my old Ultimate Spider-Man comic Books and reread the first 20 issues or so. As a thought experiment; I pretended that Bendis had never created Miles Morales, But instead had simply made Ultimate Peter Black/Spanish. Interestingly enough, It was still a good story. In my mind at least, Peter was still Peter.

So, I have come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter who plays Peter or MJ as long as they get the characters right.

[boots]

45% of the Bronx is white and I can assure you there are plenty of poor white people along with poor black people. There's also plenty of black people that AREN'T poor and from the hood. The suggestion that there is some intrinsic tie between being black and from the hood is a stereotype at best and racist at worst.

that's not textbook racism at all. textbook racism these days is defined as systemic. racism comes from systemic power.

the system is loaded 90% in favour of the dominant ethnicity; moves like this seek to address the imbalance.

it's not the same both ways.

http://www.dailydot.com/via/reverse-...-doesnt-exist/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/ent...b07addcb45da97

[Frontier]

Ned's role in the franchise was to give the Bugle a named reporter and be a rival to Peter for Betty's affections, which ultimately played a big role in his relationship with Peter and even Flash down the line, until he eventually played a big role in the Hobgoblin saga up to his death and even beyond it.

None of which (except for maybe the Betty relationship) seem to be a factor in the MCU's use of him, which probably explains how drastically they're re-imagining him as Peter's best friend in a way that comes off like they're basically adapting Ganke.

Which could be in-part because they want to take a break from Harry, which is fine, though the Osborn's are so tied into the mythos that I doubt it'll be long before we see them again in the movies. Granted, I thought the same thing about the Bugle and the supporting cast there, and it doesn't look like we'll be seeing them at all...

[Moral_Gutpunch]

You seem to be putting too much of what's in your own head into this.

I can't think of a better way to tie in Jameson.

For all intents and purposes, wouldn't Ned be a new character using the name of an obscure character? I don't see why people are so upset about this usage. They want to pay homage to Lee/Ditko/Romita.

In that era, Ned was a leading character. I didn't even look up the character, I just read a lot of Spider-Man that's easily available on Marvel Unlimited. I'm not upset, I'm confused by basic storytelling. Ned affects several characters, including the Robertsons; he's not that minor unless the MCU is only going by the Ultimate universe or Slott's stuff.

Some things will have to be changed, such as Ned's relationship with Peter leading to Harry trust Peter not to steal MJ away. But just because Ned isn't as popular as the Robertsons doesn't mean he's like Sally or even Moose (remember them? No? There's a good reason) and doesn't mean he wasn't as common or important as Gloria Grant.

Why make a new character called Ned Leeds? Marvel's been accurate to all the other small name drops I mentioned. Even if he has a small role, he should be done with some accuracy. It's not like I'm asking Marvel to remember he and Betty live in New Jersey.

I really like the Robertsons.

I'm hoping they show up in the next movie. Kinda weird there's so many non-white actors, yet no one plays the Robertsons.

Definitely not the Future Foundation. Not with Fox still having those FF rights.

Can't be Horizon. That'd really be jumping the gun.

[Kevinroc]

I can't think of a better way to tie in Jameson.

The real problem with Jameson is the JK Simmons factor. Simmons as Jonah was one of those incredible casting choices that it feels like they aren't even going to try. And they let Simmons slip away.

Let's be honest. The Bugle has never REALLY been important in any Spidey film. We just love Simmons' Jonah. The rest of the Bugle staff barely made an impression in the Raimi films. And they didn't even try in the ASM films (with Jonah reduced to existing completely off-screen because nobody was topping Simmons).

The Bugle would need to be rethought from the ground up to work in today's world. But you're asking far more of me than I am interested in discussing. If you have ideas for how the Bugle can work, that's fine. That's not why I'm here, though.

In that era, Ned was a leading character. I didn't even look up the character, I just read a lot of Spider-Man that's easily available on Marvel Unlimited. I'm not upset, I'm confused by basic storytelling. Ned affects several characters, including the Robertsons; he's not that minor unless the MCU is only going by the Ultimate universe or Slott's stuff.

Some things will have to be changed, such as Ned's relationship with Peter leading to Harry trust Peter not to steal MJ away. But just because Ned isn't as popular as the Robertsons doesn't mean he's like Sally or even Moose (remember them? No? There's a good reason) and doesn't mean he wasn't as common or important as Gloria Grant.

Why make a new character called Ned Leeds? Marvel's been accurate to all the other small name drops I mentioned. Even if he has a small role, he should be done with some accuracy. It's not like I'm asking Marvel to remember he and Betty live in New Jersey.

Harry's overplayed. And throwing out the name of an old character that has largely been forgotten by Spidey fandom is their way of honoring the work of Lee/Ditko/Romita. Sorry if that isn't the answer you're looking for. But it is what it is.

I'm hoping they show up in the next movie. Kinda weird there's so many non-white actors, yet no one plays the Robertsons.

I really like the Robertsons.

Can't be Horizon. That'd really be jumping the gun.

All kidding aside, I was referring to this. Peter's sweater says "Midtown School of Science & Technology."

[Xenon]

Except Luke Cage was specifically meant to be a power fantasy and inspiration for the urban black youth. Even Marvels touched upon how young African-Americans could relate to Cage more than an African-American working for "The Man" like Falcon. The character is so deeply tied to the AA community that the connection transcends just hailing from the Bronx.

Mary Jane OTOH is the "everyman's dreamgirl". And the everyman's dreamgirl can be of any color.

Could be....but she's not (also she was meant to be the Spoiler, not the Dream Girl. Gerry Conway was confused. =p).

Let me continue on the Luke Cage Thread. If they changed Luke Cage to be a young arabic man from the Bronx to inspire a group that is heavily marginilized in today's society, would you be ok with that? Why not? Would he still be Luke Cage?

And, that's kinda going beyond the page. There's nothign on the page that insists Luke Cage HAS to be black.

(Of course, I think he does, because he IS. But hypotheticals being what they are...)

Wasn't that an essential part of their relationship for a long time, though? She was practically his grandmother and he took care of her?

The bugle and their relationship are I think the two biggest casualties of the sliding time scale. Remember also that Betty Brant dropped out of high school to get a job at the Bugle. In the 60s, being 16 and having a job wasn't that crazy of a thing. Having to quit school to take care of your family also not that crazy. I'd say the 60s were the tail end of that kind of situation, but it was a feasible scenario in those days. Now...not so much. I joke about it, but it's also why Aunt May keeps getting older. 60 in 1962 was a lot older than 60 in 2016.

I understand your point. and I personally prefer the Peter and MJ I grew up with. Make Captain America Black, Sure...Change a single hair on Peter or MJ's head and I'm ready to scream murder.

I was curious to find out if changing Peter or MJ's race would change my perception of those characters. I noted that the World did not end when Candace Patton assumed the role of Iris West on CW's Flash. Okay, Then I broke out my old Ultimate Spider-Man comic Books and reread the first 20 issues or so. As a thought experiment; I pretended that Bendis had never created Miles Morales, But instead had simply made Ultimate Peter Black/Spanish. Interestingly enough, It was still a good story. In my mind at least, Peter was still Peter.

So, I have come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter who plays Peter or MJ as long as they get the characters right.

Of course it doesn't matter to the story what race they are. That's missing the point. The point is that these characters have certain characteristics, and when you don't stick to those characteristics, they stop being those characters. That's all a fictional character has. It's why Slott's writing offends me so, because his characterization is terrible, and Characterization is the entire identity of "Spider-Man" and every other Character. That's why they're called Characteristics.

that's not textbook racism at all. textbook racism these days is defined as systemic. racism comes from systemic power.

the system is loaded 90% in favour of the dominant ethnicity; moves like this seek to address the imbalance.

it's not the same both ways.

http://www.dailydot.com/via/reverse-...-doesnt-exist/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/ent...b07addcb45da97

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism?s=t

A couple opinion pieces by racists trying to justify their racism is not a compelling argument. Those are people who are trying to re-define something because they know they fit the definition and know the power of language. As such, they attempt to say redefine the word so they can continue to use it as a weapon without it being thrown back in their faces. But, in the end, it's still racism. It's still the long-standing always recognized definition, which is prejudice on the basis of race. You need no power to be racist.

If you want people to be equal you have to treat them equal. If you treat them differently others will do the same. In the long run, it's the only course that actually ends such petty thinking.

The real problem with Jameson is the JK Simmons factor. Simmons as Jonah was one of those incredible casting choices that it feels like they aren't even going to try. And they let Simmons slip away.

This is absolutely true. JK Simmons is Patrick Stewart as Charles Xavier level casting. It might be the only one that tops it.

Let's be honest. The Bugle has never REALLY been important in any Spidey film. We just love Simmons' Jonah. The rest of the Bugle staff barely made an impression in the Raimi films. And they didn't even try in the ASM films (with Jonah reduced to existing completely off-screen because nobody was topping Simmons).

The Bugle is a setting and a tool and always has been. But it just doesn't quite feel right without it.

All kidding aside, I was referring to this. Peter's sweater says "Midtown School of Science & Technology."

Magnet High School most likely. As I understand it, it's a school that focuses heavily on a particular subject and will give scholarships to students in nearby areas for them to attend the magnet high school instead of the one they would be assigned geographically. However, I believe non-recruited students may still end up in the Magnet school simply based on Geography. There are ways to justify Flash and co. being there, at least from my limited understanding.

[Kevinroc]

Could be....but she's not (also she was meant to be the Spoiler, not the Dream Girl. Gerry Conway was confused. =p).

Let me continue on the Luke Cage Thread. If they changed Luke Cage to be a young arabic man from the Bronx to inspire a group that is heavily marginilized in today's society, would you be ok with that? Why not? Would he still be Luke Cage?

And, that's kinda going beyond the page. There's nothign on the page that insists Luke Cage HAS to be black.

(Of course, I think he does, because he IS. But hypotheticals being what they are...)

This might seem like a reasonable argument in your mind, but it isn't. In the 1960s, white was the default. We are not going to pit minority communities against each other in a false equivalency. The image of a bulletproof black man still resonates (as demonstrated by the reactions to the Luke Cage Netflix trailer).

Mary Jane was literally supposed to be the most beautiful girl Peter had ever seen. And John Romita took that as modeling a character after Ann Margret from Bye Bye Birdie onto the page. That is not the only standard of beauty in 2016.

This is absolutely true. JK Simmons is Patrick Stewart as Charles Xavier level casting. It might be the only one that tops it.

The Bugle is a setting and a tool and always has been. But it just doesn't quite feel right without it.

I also think it's harder to justify a kid working at the Bugle in 2017. Even Jimmy Olsen isn't a kid anymore whenever he shows up in TV shows and movies. (If that was Jimmy getting his brains blown out in BvS.)

Magnet High School most likely. As I understand it, it's a school that focuses heavily on a particular subject and will give scholarships to students in nearby areas for them to attend the magnet high school instead of the one they would be assigned geographically. However, I believe non-recruited students may still end up in the Magnet school simply based on Geography. There are ways to justify Flash and co. being there, at least from my limited understanding.

The sweater says "Midtown."

[boots]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism?s=t

yep. see definition 2.

and you can clearly see that casting someone of non white ethnicity doesn’t fit definition 1 or 3.

A couple opinion pieces by racists trying to justify their racism is not a compelling argument.

backed by academic studies.

and it’s not a redefinition of the word, it’s a deeper understanding of the systems that empower racism and a natural evolution of the term. what you’re talking about could more aptly be described as bigotry.

If you want people to be equal you have to treat them equal.

that assumes an equal playing field in the first place. what we are concerned with these days is equity, not “equality” (see attached)

the entertainment industry is overwhelmingly stacked in favour of white males, and
to a lesser degree white females. giving one traditional white role to a black actress barely affects the opportunities for white actresses, but it is a significant triumph for the black acting community.

i have seen some horrible stuff go on behind closed doors in the industry both in front and behind the camera in my career. it’s not just individuals enforcing it: it’s systemic. and it needs to stop


index.jpg

[Xenon]

This might seem like a reasonable argument in your mind, but it isn't. In the 1960s, white was the default. We are not going to pit minority communities against each other in a false equivalency. The image of a bulletproof black man still resonates (as demonstrated by the reactions to the Luke Cage Netflix trailer).

Mary Jane was literally supposed to be the most beautiful girl Peter had ever seen. And John Romita took that as modeling a character after Ann Margret from Bye Bye Birdie onto the page. That is not the only standard of beauty in 2016.

If you see it as "pitting minority groups against each other", you're either missing the point or you understand and are trying to dodge it. Again, I think Luke Cage should be black because he always was black. But what made him resonate applies to other minority groups as well. His strengths could be applied to them. It works for them too. But that's not who that character is. He WAS created for those reasons and does resonate with some people because of the way he looks. It is, in fact, a part of his character. And the point is that this facet is no different for Luke Cage or Kamala Khan or Peter Parker or Mary Jane.

2) It's not the only standard of Beauty, but that's not an argument for changing a character who already exists. If you want to make something inspired or modeled after Spider-Man, that's fine, do that. Marvel does every decade or so. But if you want to make a Spider-Man film, it should have the characters from the Spider-Man book, and that means they should be as faithful as they can be.

The sweater says "Midtown."

So? Often times Magnet High Schools aren't new schools but old regional schools that adopt different policies. Midtown High could have converted to a Magnet school.

yep. see definition 2.

and you can clearly see that casting someone of non white ethnicity doesn’t fit definition 1 or 3.

Yeah, but it fits definition 2; discrimination.

Webster can also chime in: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

backed by academic studies.

and it’s not a redefinition of the word, it’s a deeper understanding of the systems that empower racism and a natural evolution of the term. what you’re talking about could more aptly be described as bigotry.

Bigotry is another word that people misuse, as it's proper definition is essentially a synonym for narrow-minded-ness, but no, what I'm talking about is racism, which is discrimination based on race. Academic studies dont' justify the changing of the word, they demonstrate that, unfortunately, black people still have it worse than white people. But not the causes and solutions to those problems (also the first one has no sources at all, so, yeah).

that assumes an equal playing field in the first place. what we are concerned with these days is equity, not “equality” (see attached)

the entertainment industry is overwhelmingly stacked in favour of white males, and
to a lesser degree white females. giving one traditional white role to a black actress barely affects the opportunities for white actresses, but it is a significant triumph for the black acting community.

i have seen some horrible stuff go on behind closed doors in the industry both in front and behind the camera in my career. it’s not just individuals enforcing it: it’s systemic. and it needs to stop

1) A system is made of individuals. The laws on the books don't allow that behavior. It's up to the individuals to ensure that's actually what happens. Making a law to enforce discrimination is a poor way to stop it.
2) Thinking of it in terms of "white actress" and the "black acting community" is somewhat disturbing to me. It fails to treat individuals as individuals and defines people based on their skin color with no other distinction.
3) No, I don't assume an equal playing field. People start in all kinds of different places (regardless of race, even). But if you only think about the short term you'll never solve the long term problems. If you want to stop treating people differently, you need to stop treating people differently. You can say "but this is GOOD discrimination", but it still reinforces the lesson that group X is DIFFERENT and shoudl be treated DIFFERENTLY because they are group X. And some people are always going to use that difference to treat them worse. The only way to eliminate racism is to stop telling people that THESE groups of people are any different from THOSE groups of people.

[Zeitgeist]

It's like casting a white guy as Luke Cage.

No, it's really not.

Luke Cage and Hector Ayala dont' have to be Black or Hispanic respectively to make their stories work, but that's what they are.

Luke Cage's race and upbringing are pretty intrinsic to the core of the character

[Kevinroc]

If you see it as "pitting minority groups against each other", you're either missing the point or you understand and are trying to dodge it. Again, I think Luke Cage should be black because he always was black. But what made him resonate applies to other minority groups as well. His strengths could be applied to them. It works for them too. But that's not who that character is. He WAS created for those reasons and does resonate with some people because of the way he looks. It is, in fact, a part of his character. And the point is that this facet is no different for Luke Cage or Kamala Khan or Peter Parker or Mary Jane.

2) It's not the only standard of Beauty, but that's not an argument for changing a character who already exists. If you want to make something inspired or modeled after Spider-Man, that's fine, do that. Marvel does every decade or so. But if you want to make a Spider-Man film, it should have the characters from the Spider-Man book, and that means they should be as faithful as they can be.

You argued that Luke Cage should be black because he was black in the comics, and then asked how people would feel if Cage were of Middle Eastern descent. Yes, you did try to pit minority communities against each other. Don't pretend you were doing otherwise.

Did it bother you when Marvel used Sam Jackson as a template for Ultimate Nick Fury? When Sam Jackson was actually cast as Nick Fury for the films? When Idris Elba was cast as Heimdall? When Will Smith was cast as Deadshot in Suicide Squad? When Candice Patton was cast as Iris West in The Flash (2014) TV show? When Mehcad Brooks was cast as Jimmy Olson for the Supergirl TV series?

Let's turn it around. Did it bother you when Liam Neeson was cast as Ra's in Batman Begins? When Scarlet Johansson will play The Major (Motoko Kusanagi) in Ghost in the Shell? When Jake Gyllenhaal played the title character in The Prince of Persia?

Or is it only Zendaya's possible casting as MJ that bothers you?

So? Often times Magnet High Schools aren't new schools but old regional schools that adopt different policies. Midtown High could have converted to a Magnet school.

This seems like info that I'll have to wait to see the movie before commenting on.

[Moral_Gutpunch]

The real problem with Jameson is the JK Simmons factor. Simmons as Jonah was one of those incredible casting choices that it feels like they aren't even going to try. And they let Simmons slip away.

Let's be honest. The Bugle has never REALLY been important in any Spidey film. We just love Simmons' Jonah. The rest of the Bugle staff barely made an impression in the Raimi films. And they didn't even try in the ASM films (with Jonah reduced to existing completely off-screen because nobody was topping Simmons).

The Bugle has a lot of potential. But not while Peter's in High School. Simmons was straight out of the comics, but sadly the Bugle was just a way to make Jameson jokes and send Peter to different places in the movies.

Peter using the Bugle for an internship (probably unpaid due to Jameson) would make a lot of sense, but Peter would have to be in college. I don't think even taking college credits while in high scool would get that oppurtunity.

Harry's overplayed. And throwing out the name of an old character that has largely been forgotten by Spidey fandom is their way of honoring the work of Lee/Ditko/Romita. Sorry if that isn't the answer you're looking for. But it is what it is.

It's a silly answer. Ned was a big part of the same era, affected a lot, and so forth. Also, he's way bigger than the Owl or Stiltsman. Heck, he's bigger than ROM and we're getting a ROM tie in to the MCU. Why would Marvel studios stop giving us continuity to minor characters now?

All kidding aside, I was referring to this. Peter's sweater says "Midtown School of Science & Technology."

I'm pretty sure that's a club or gifted section of the school. My high school had similar shirts for its sports. Looking at them, you'd think it was nothing but football and track and field. In truth, the couldn't even aford enough shirts for the track and field kids.