I think the Spectre can become a popular (perhaps A-list) character

[Trey Strain]

There are only so many possibilities here. First, the Spectre can't be an A-list character. "Cant" is no good, so forget that one. Second, he can become an A-list character without being changed. Well, bull. It wont turn out any different if you try it the same way again. Third, you have to change some things to make him an A-list character. This is obviously the right viewpoint. There's no contrary argument.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

There are only so many possibilities here. First, the Spectre can't be an A-list character. "Cant" is no good, so forget that one. Second, he can become an A-list character without being changed. Well, bull. It wont turn out any different if you try it the same way again. Third, you have to change some things to make him an A-list character. This is obviously the right viewpoint. There's no contrary argument.

Unless you consider making him "A-list" to not be the best possible outcome if it means stripping away what defines the character. Again: why do you care?

[Trey Strain]

And I have to ask -- was the wrath of God really all that good? I don't think it was. The problem wasn't simply that it didn't sell. It wasn't very good either.

[Outside_85]

And I have to ask -- was the wrath of God really all that good? I don't think it was. The problem wasn't simply that it didn't sell. It wasn't very good either.

It simply wouldn't have lasted this long if it wasn't.

There are only so many possibilities here. First, the Spectre can't be an A-list character. "Cant" is no good, so forget that one. Second, he can become an A-list character without being changed. Well, bull. It wont turn out any different if you try it the same way again. Third, you have to change some things to make him an A-list character. This is obviously the right viewpoint. There's no contrary argument.

Except no one cares what character is 'A-list' or which is not. It's not difficult, when you go into a burger bar, you look at the menu and order the item you like, you dont go up to the desk and ask for their best selling one.

[Trey Strain]

So.. you're not interested in reading what I wrote, but you're interested enough to post about it. All right. But what you're also saying is that DC shouldn't make any money off the Spectre, and that anyone who says it should is unentitled to say that because they don't work for DC. Au contraire, I think if there's any unentitlement hereabouts, it's with someone who says that a corporation should refrain from making adjustments to a failing property because they like the failing version. Try going to a shareholders meeting and making a presentation with that theme, and see what kind of reception you get. You won't be embraced.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Try going to a shareholders meeting and making a presentation with that theme, and see what kind of reception you get. You won't be embraced.

This forum is not a shareholders' meeting, so I'm not sure why it should be evaluated by the same criteria as a shareholders' meeting.

[Captain Smith]

If there is some mega event that threatens all of reality.... then he REALLY should be there.

Not if you take a theological view. Why not ask why God Almighty (despite the Source, Presence recent horse crap interpretations) doesn't intervene in all the universe destroying crises or even in saving individuals. That is the problem in religion of why bad things happen to good people when you have an omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresent deity. The answer being that we work out our own problems and then get an afterlife reward. Thus, the Specter had the role of revenging the unavenged for whatever reason God wanted that to happen. He didn't save cats from trees or universes all the time.

I like that interpretation. If Trey doesn't like and wants to write his own book, go ahead - who cares. Too much ego here in the discussion.

The Wrath of God constraint worked in the best run of the character. Of course, the market place is powerful. So take your fan-fiction to the market and sell it.

[Outside_85]

Try going to a shareholders meeting and making a presentation with that theme, and see what kind of reception you get. You won't be embraced.

Give me one good reason I should care what shareholders think?

Because shareholders don't give a damn about the product as long as it sells, to them it's not about the characters, stories, art or the message, its all about the money to them. Most specifically; their money.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

Give me one good reason I should care what shareholders think?

Because shareholders don't give a damn about the product as long as it sells, to them it's not about the characters, stories, art or the message, its all about the money to them. Most specifically; their money.

he wasn't telling you to care about what the powers-that-be think. Just that the powers-that-be won't care what you think lol

[Outside_85]

he wasn't telling you to care about what the powers-that-be think. Just that the powers-that-be won't care what you think lol

Well, he is certainly trying to get us to all join him in thinking like the accountants who are hired to please those shareholders.

[Trey Strain]

Either he can or he can't become an A-list character. And he definitely can't if you keep trying him the same way.

Pretty simple, really.

[PyroTwilight]

I'm not actually certain what the issue with Spectre is anyway. He can be as good as any writer lets him be.

He can be (re)introduced as a group of similar level beings that we've seen over the years. The Radiant (from Final Crisis Revelation I believe), or the Fatalist (from Peter David's final Supergirl arc).

Make it an intrigue story about the various cosmic beings working for the Presence and how they interfere with one another.

The Fatalist in particular is Spectre's opposite. A being who causes chaos and destruction as he believes it's God's will, just as much as the Spectre does the opposite.


People tend to question why Spectre can't go after the big villains of the DCU. Just say he cannot because the Fatalist champions them in some indirect way.

Show the Spectre stopping cosmic catastrophes that normal heroes don't become aware of etc...

[Outside_85]

Either he can or he can't become an A-list character. And he definitely can't if you keep trying him the same way.

Pretty simple, really.

You continue to fail at answering the most basic question here:

Why would we want him to be?

[Savage Savant]

If it's New Gods tech, yes. Lex Luthor, no.



Spectre straddles a strange crossover spot of horror/supernatural and crime, fantasy as a genre is stuff like Conan and Demon Knights. But in regards to the Spectre's writers, Ostrander is the better known to modern audiences.

Yeah, anyone who read's genre fiction (sci-fi & fantasy) would consider this character as fantasy (dark fantasy to be precise since the character has horror elements). By this entry http://sf-encyclopedia.uk/fe.php?nm=...atural_fiction the character for sure would be considered fantasy

So whats the reason again that the Spectre needs to be depowered now if he's always been more powerful than people who could sneeze out galaxies

Don't see how the character would be depowered if you write him as he was in Pre-Crisis continuity. He would actually be a character instead of an NPC deus ex machina.

How about I just refer you to the top 5 lines of the wikipedia entry and not waste my time?

Lol at least I bothered to read a few entries on that site to enlighten myself. Ignorance is bliss I guess....

Still doesn't give a reason he needs to still be it when he's managed this long with it being a low-key part of it.

Maybe because it's always been a part of his character? In all interpretations the character has always been a detective. Not tough to understand....

Yeah, but readers tend to call creators out on massive changes that are percieved as wrong for the character... see Cassandra Sandmark, Superboy mk1 & mk2, all of the old JSA members, Hawkverine, Captain Atom. If you wait 20 years for this change you want, you'd have had 50+ years of God's Wrath Spectre and noone left in the industry that actually remembers the old SA days.

Funny, you mentioned the character not having a drastic change in Gotham by Midnight, yet upon further reading, there's no indication that the character is some goobley gook that needs a "host" in that series. Obviously it's not Pre-Crisis but they were definitely harkening back to that continuity.

Interestingly, the DC wikia, FWIW, mentions this on the page for New 52 version http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/James_Corrigan_(Prime_Earth) go figure.

I know in Fox's run, the Spectre & Corrigan were supposed to be separate personalities of the same being so that's nothing new. At any rate, the Post-Crisis version of the character is nothing more than a deus ex machina. One can only tell the Ostrander type stories for so long and on top of that, the character becomes a dumb NPC hero who any smuck can "wear" & either randomly solve whatever issue is going on or get his ass kicked by the big bad in issue #x or event x.

Characters with external powers aren't that popular (except Iron Man & Green Lantern due to a few reasons). Why should anyone get invested in a character if anyone can wear the suit? This article mentions some similar arguments as well http://mightygodking.com/2011/07/28/...o-the-spectre/

You attack the version of a character I like and want to revert the character to the previous incarnation that I hate, I know what you want just fine and I wonder why you couldn't just read Constantine instead since that seems to be what you are looking for or one of those pulp-characters Dynamite is putting out.

Fixed it for you. I like the Pre-Crisis incarnation of this character, period. I like the yarns Siegel, Fox, Adams & Fleischer wrote for this character, totally not hard to understand. With the nature of DC comics, anyone who's a fan of these characters & this universe is bound to have incarnations of a character they prefer over others. Some people like Golden Age Superman & hate Silver Age Superman, others are the exact opposite or like the Pre-Crisis continuity & hate Post-Crisis continuity, etc.

This character will never become as popular as Superman or Batman but I'm pretty sure the character could become fairly well-known and gain a following. However the Post-Crisis version is more of a hindrance than a solution. The character just becomes a walking, talking NPC character without much interest & either fixes problems randomly or gets his ass kicked by the baddie of the week. Write the character as he was in Pre-Crisis continuity and the stories are much easier to tell and provide more variety and intrigue.

You're not gonna change my mind buddy, I know you hate what I have said & that's fine. Since it seems to bother you so you're more than welcome to either block me or not respond at all to my posts. You don't have to continue to follow me and respond to everything I say if it gets your panties in a bunch :P Since you wanna bring up post count (ad hominen fallacy?) I could say my post count is indicative of how wisely I spend my time & how I ensure everything I post is logical, coherent & well thought out. This is all fiction at the end of the day, I love genre fiction & these characters but I don't pretend to not have other hobbies and activities I indulge in. I already made a thread about this & I didn't read any posts that were well thought out & as parsimonious as what my argument conveyed. Don't expect me to waste my time anymore responding to you just so I can repeat what I've already said.

[Outside_85]

Yeah, anyone who read's genre fiction (sci-fi & fantasy) would consider this character as fantasy (dark fantasy to be precise since the character has horror elements). By this entry http://sf-encyclopedia.uk/fe.php?nm=...atural_fiction the character for sure would be considered fantasy

Anyone with a very shallow definition you mean. Otherwise, by your definition, the Ring would be fantasy.

Don't see how the character would be depowered if you write him as he was in Pre-Crisis continuity. He would actually be a character instead of an NPC deus ex machina.

He's only an NPC during events.

Lol at least I bothered to read a few entries on that site to enlighten myself. Ignorance is bliss I guess....

Or, you know, perhaps I am not overly concerned with a definition from some backwater no one's ever heard of when I have the largest encyclopedia on Earth at my fingertips?

Maybe because it's always been a part of his character? In all interpretations the character has always been a detective. Not tough to understand....

So maybe Superman should return to being a full on jerk like he was in the start?

Funny, you mentioned the character not having a drastic change in Gotham by Midnight, yet upon further reading, there's no indication that the character is some goobley gook that needs a "host" in that series. Obviously it's not Pre-Crisis but they were definitely harkening back to that continuity.

You aren't a terribly observant if the mention of the Spectre's station slipped you by.

Interestingly, the DC wikia, FWIW, mentions this on the page for New 52 version http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/James_Corrigan_(Prime_Earth) go figure.

Go figure, you missed the mention of God and then Phantom Stranger.

I know in Fox's run, the Spectre & Corrigan were supposed to be separate personalities of the same being so that's nothing new. At any rate, the Post-Crisis version of the character is nothing more than a deus ex machina. One can only tell the Ostrander type stories for so long and on top of that, the character becomes a dumb NPC hero who any smuck can "wear" & either randomly solve whatever issue is going on or get his ass kicked by the big bad in issue #x or event x.

Or, you know, he could be killed and forgotten like so many other GA characters, but maybe you'd like that.

Characters with external powers aren't that popular (except Iron Man & Green Lantern due to a few reasons). Why should anyone get invested in a character if anyone can wear the suit? This article mentions some similar arguments as well http://mightygodking.com/2011/07/28/...o-the-spectre/

I dont know, perhaps you'd like to ask one of the dozen Spidermen thats running around now?

I like the Pre-Crisis incarnation of this character, period. I like the yarns Siegel, Fox, Adams & Fleischer wrote for this character, totally not hard to understand. With the nature of DC comics, anyone who's a fan of these characters & this universe is bound to have incarnations of a character they prefer over others. Some people like Golden Age Superman & hate Silver Age Superman, others are the exact opposite or like the Pre-Crisis continuity & hate Post-Crisis continuity, etc.

In other words you are merely a fossil from a bygone age.

This character will never become as popular as Superman or Batman but I'm pretty sure the character could become fairly well-known and gain a following. However the Post-Crisis version is more of a hindrance than a solution. The character just becomes a walking, talking NPC character without much interest & either fixes problems randomly or gets his ass kicked by the baddie of the week. Write the character as he was in Pre-Crisis continuity and the stories are much easier to tell and provide more variety and intrigue.

You mean like Superman?

You're not gonna change my mind buddy, I know you hate what I have said, because I am a ridiculous strawman & that's fine. Since it seems to bother you so you're more than welcome to either block me or not respond at all to my posts. You don't have to continue to follow me and respond to everything I say if it gets your panties in a bunch :P Since you wanna bring up post count (ad hominen fallacy?) I could say my post count is indicative of how wisely I spend my time & how I ensure everything I post is logical, coherent & well thought out. This is all fiction at the end of the day, I love genre fiction & these characters but I don't pretend to not have other hobbies and activities I indulge in. I already made a thread about this & I didn't read any posts that were well thought out & as parsimonious as what my argument conveyed. Don't expect me to waste my time anymore responding to you just so I can repeat what I've already said.

See, I can do it as well.