IMO, I think Liu's "Ice God" story would've been a better point of depth for Bobby, than just turning him gay

[Nicoclaws]

Edit because that was sterile.

[Mah VM]

About the title of the thread: It does't have to be either or. I personaly liked the "Ice God" story better because it focused on his powers and even though I understand the importance of coming out stories I'm kind of tired of them, specialy the angsty ones. I'm interested in his future stories in Extraordinary X-Men regardless whether they'll focus on his relationships or powers, hopefully both. (Still think he should have gotten a solo already where there'd be enouh time and space to delve into many different aspects of the character.)

Now onto the mess...
For the life of me I can't understand why people are still bitching about this. It doesn't make even one lick of sense anymore, as if Marvel is just gonna kick their most popular gay character into the closet because some people are still mad about it. Btw I never knew Wiccan, Hulkling and Angela had so many fans, wonder why we never see them actually appreciating this characters instead of seeminly only remembering their names to use as disclaimers of the "I have nothing against gays but..." variety? Food for thought.

[aja_christopher]

Scratch Angela, Karma, Moondragon, Shatterstar, Rictor, Illyana and Kitty, and some other user mentionned Psylocke and Fantomex. I you disagree with Iceman being gay, they are not either, as they all came out much later than their first appearance (I think, I'm unsure about Moondragon though) or are just "hints" that just a few people (me included) are "latching too" because "they are desperate" (like Psylocke having repeated sex with a woman).

I've never disagreed with Iceman being gay -- though I think bi would have been the better option: I just don't find him that interesting, especially compared to everyone else I mentioned. I don't have any real interest in Bobby at all, film or comic-wise, but I'd like to learn more about many already established LGBT characters (especially Karolina/Lightspeed, Wiccan, Pod, America, Karma, Fantomex, and Prodigy).

Daken too, if they'd give him a better hairstyle -- I think the mohawk puts me off of him more than anything else, including his "villain" slant.

There's no reason to 'scratch' anyone on that list, nor to ignore the fact that there are plenty of other relatively unused characters who could potentially be LGBT. I'm equally open to a "new" LGBT legacy character in the vein of Kamala or Miles (Daken was relatively successful in that respect), but my preference would be seeing more of Karolina/Lightspeed, Angela/Sera, Wiccan, Mystique, Prodigy, Pod, Loki, Daken, or America or having Kitty and Illyana build on their already long-established close relationship.

Honestly, I'd probably take anyone on that list over Iceman, so it's not about having issue with Bobby being gay so much as him being (in my opinion) a relatively boring character... despite Liu's recent efforts to give him more depth, which could have led to (I think) an intriguing "bi" storyline.

I don't have a problem with Iceman being "gay" -- I have a problem with poor storytelling and boring characters.

[Nicoclaws]

Ah ok. I was wondering what your point was (although I don't understand many points, like why you put "" around gay. I'm probably dumb ).

[aja_christopher]

Ah ok. I was wondering what your point was (although I don't understand many points, like why you put "" around gay. I'm probably dumb ).

Because I was quoting what was established in the topic header at the close of my statement for effect.

Personally, I have issue with the phrase "turning him gay" but that's a whole different post... and I've already gone into this far more than I think is necessary, especially given the fact that my longstanding support for Karolina Dean and Julie Power far supercedes anything even remotely related to Bobby Drake.

That doesn't mean that good stories about Iceman can't be written going forward, but (personally) I'm a lot more likely to support appearances by characters I care about than those that I don't.

[Nicoclaws]

Ah ok Glad we agree on that first thing.
I personnaly like Iceman (for some traits of him, for his visual, his powers). At one point I felt like I was over him, I would say under Aaron's pen but I realized that was mostly Aaron. So now I have another reason to latch on to the character, I am happy.
I want a LGBT Marvel team now. (which I realise would include the whole Young Avengers team)

[ZNOP]

Oh I'm sorry I assumed you were talking about a situation where the oppressors knew. I really don't understand your point then.



Scratch Angela, Karma, Moondragon, Shatterstar, Rictor, Illyana and Kitty, and some other user mentionned Psylocke and Fantomex. I you disagree with Iceman being gay, they are not either, as they all came out much later than their first appearance (I think, I'm unsure about Moondragon though) or are just "hints" that just a few people (me included) are "latching too" because "they are desperate" (like Psylocke having repeated sex with a woman).

Actually, Shatterstar's clearly stated that he was bio engineered and (in so many words) emotionally detached--



--I'd say that's as "asexual" as one can get... Perhaps, it was Benjamin Russell who was LGBT?

[marvelguy25]

Oh I'm sorry I assumed you were talking about a situation where the oppressors knew. I really don't understand your point then.



Scratch Angela, Karma, Moondragon, Shatterstar, Rictor, Illyana and Kitty, and some other user mentionned Psylocke and Fantomex. I you disagree with Iceman being gay, they are not either, as they all came out much later than their first appearance (I think, I'm unsure about Moondragon though) or are just "hints" that just a few people (me included) are "latching too" because "they are desperate" (like Psylocke having repeated sex with a woman).

MoonDragon prefers women and has been in a relationship with Quasar and Marlo Jones , Angela first appeared a few years ago and hasn't been in a relationship with anybody until now, Karma has always been a lesbian , Rictor and Shatterstar were in a relationship, and it depends on Illyana and Kitty. Psylocke had sex with Cluster because she reminded him of everything the real Fantomex was.

[Nicoclaws]

Actually, Shatterstar's clearly stated that he was bio engineered and (in so many words) emotionally detached--
--I'd say that's as "asexual" as one can get... Perhaps, it was Benjamin Russell who was LGBT?

Fortunately, LGBTQIA now include asexuals, so yay ! Although bio engineering and being emotionnaly detached doesn't necessarily mean asexual so once again I don't understand your point.

MoonDragon prefers women and has been in a relationship with Quasar and Moondragon, Angela first appeared a few years ago and hasn't been in a relationship with anybody until now, Karma has always been a lesbian , Rictor and Shatterstar were in a relationship, and it depends on Illyana and Kitty. Psylocke had sex with Cluster because she reminded him of everything the real Fantomex was.

My answer came from a misunderstanding of Christopher's post. I thought he was making a list of lgbt characters that could be used instead of "making Bobby gay", which would make no sense as half of the characters he listed discovered their sexuality over the years (or are still in a potential official closet, as per Illyana, Kitty or Storm).
Karma's homosexuality was revealed WAY later than her first appearance, and I think it never got hinted or even intended before X-force ? Karma fans correct me if I'm wrong ?
Same with Moondragon. Angela was a Spawn character before her marvel appearance, although I'm not sure what's the official take on her. Rictor and Shatterstar's relationship went under a lot of criticism by their fans at the time. Psylocke, who had sex and called a woman her "love" is still a subject of debate (I still don't understand why but look where we are).

[aja_christopher]

The creative team can make all the difference in writing, illustrating and selling these characters.

I still stand by the fact that if Neil Gaiman penned and Sara Pichelli illustrated Angela, you'd have one of the best comic book series ever written -- I know I'd pay a premium for that book from start to finish, so long as said team stayed on said book.



To a lesser extent, I think Vaughan and Aphona could do the same for Karolina and Julie, and likewise for Liu and Immonen on Kitty and Illyana.



I don't know much about who would be good for Rictor, Moondragon, Pod, Wiccan and/or Loki as I don't read many of their titles but I'm pretty sure anything with Hickman and/or Opena involved would do well on the charts, and Ewing and Jamie McKelvie would probably do well with America Chavez.

[marvelguy25]

Fortunately, LGBTQIA now include asexuals, so yay ! Although bio engineering and being emotionnaly detached doesn't necessarily mean asexual so once again I don't understand your point.


My answer came from a misunderstanding of Christopher's post. I thought he was making a list of lgbt characters that could be used instead of "making Bobby gay", which would make no sense as half of the characters he listed discovered their sexuality over the years (or are still in a potential official closet, as per Illyana, Kitty or Storm).
Karma's homosexuality was revealed WAY later than her first appearance, and I think it never got hinted or even intended before X-force ? Karma fans correct me if I'm wrong ?
Same with Moondragon. Angela was a Spawn character before her marvel appearance, although I'm not sure what's the official take on her. Rictor and Shatterstar's relationship went under a lot of criticism by their fans at the time. Psylocke, who had sex and called a woman her "love" is still a subject of debate (I still don't understand why but look where we are).

Moondragon never had any relationship with me and Angela was a new character completely erasing her version of Spawn and made her into an Asgardian who i suppose is Thor's sister.

[ZNOP]

Fortunately, LGBTQIA now include asexuals, so yay ! Although bio engineering and being emotionnaly detached doesn't necessarily mean asexual so once again I don't understand your point.


My answer came from a misunderstanding of Christopher's post. I thought he was making a list of lgbt characters that could be used instead of "making Bobby gay", which would make no sense as half of the characters he listed discovered their sexuality over the years (or are still in a potential official closet, as per Illyana, Kitty or Storm).
Karma's homosexuality was revealed WAY later than her first appearance, and I think it never got hinted or even intended before X-force ? Karma fans correct me if I'm wrong ?
Same with Moondragon. Angela was a Spawn character before her marvel appearance, although I'm not sure what's the official take on her. Rictor and Shatterstar's relationship went under a lot of criticism by their fans at the time. Psylocke, who had sex and called a woman her "love" is still a subject of debate (I still don't understand why but look where we are).

Yeah, well that's okay... It's not like I'm pulling the "asexual" angle out of thin air. Moreover, just because "asexual" refers to a person who is not interested in or does not desire sexual activity, either within or outside of a relationship -- it's not like he couldn't have gained said desires after he merged with Benjamin Russell -- still, it's canon that prior to coming Earth he (Shatterstar) had no concept of human sexual relations nor was he even remotely human -- everything after that is a straight-up retcon.

[marvelguy25]

The creative team can make all the difference in writing, illustrating and selling these characters.

I still stand by the fact that if Neil Gaiman penned and Sara Pichelli illustrated Angela, you'd have one of the best comic book series ever written -- I know I'd pay a premium for that book from start to finish, so long as said team stayed on said book.



To a lesser extent, I think Vaughan and Aphona could do the same for Karolina and Julie, and likewise for Liu and Immonen on Kitty and Illyana.



I don't know much about who would be good for Rictor, Moondragon, Pod, Wiccan and/or Loki as I don't read many of their titles but I'm pretty sure anything with Hickman and/or Opena involved would do well on the charts, and Ewing and Jamie McKelvie would probably do well with America Chavez.

they'll likely pair America Chavez with Kate Bishop .