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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    It just seems like they're putting artificial limitations on themselves by only making 52 worlds and then they filled them up as quickly as they could. Why? Just so Morrison can only do one story? The assumption was, at least on my end, that they made these worlds (I assume Morrison was at least given orders to create them) because they had some kind of long term plans for them. If you're only going to allow yourself a limited number of worlds, why not wait and be cautious about how you use them? Set aside ten or so for popular Elseworlds stories and then only use the others when you have a really good idea for an ongoing or a mini.

    Some of these new Earth's look like they've been set up for stories but nothing's been done with them in the two or so years since the Multiversity was set up. Earth 16 honestly looked like it was being set up for a series where the old heroes are forced to come out of retirement because their children are in danger. Even the initial story Morrison did of them suggested this. Or the Super-president. All kinds of things could be done with a president who is also Superman (and living in a world where the "born a US citizen" clause still exists). I honestly thought one of the things that Rebirth would have done away with was the limited number of Earths.
    And see, I think just the opposite. I think Morrison wanted to do a story about a multiverse, and DC let him do it (because he's, you know, Grant Morrison) but had no intention of really doing anything with it beyond that.

    Worth noting that Morrison started on Multiversity a long time before the new52 relaunch. So they might have even had more of an intention to do something with it at that time, but it took so long to get it produced that other plans changed in the mean time.

    Morrison is a very creative person, so naturally he's going to lay foundation for other stories in the versions of his Earths. Although, to my eyes, too many of the Earths were pastiches of other publishing companies' characters, rather than actual original concepts.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennSimpson View Post
    And see, I think just the opposite. I think Morrison wanted to do a story about a multiverse, and DC let him do it (because he's, you know, Grant Morrison) but had no intention of really doing anything with it beyond that.

    Worth noting that Morrison started on Multiversity a long time before the new52 relaunch. So they might have even had more of an intention to do something with it at that time, but it took so long to get it produced that other plans changed in the mean time.

    Morrison is a very creative person, so naturally he's going to lay foundation for other stories in the versions of his Earths. Although, to my eyes, too many of the Earths were pastiches of other publishing companies' characters, rather than actual original concepts.
    I don't know.
    The Earth-32 heroes do have potential.

    I'm kind of partial to Black Arrow.

  3. #18
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    I wouldn't mind if DC had there own Exiled/Slider team book of the multiverse think I would give them team name the wanderers.

  4. #19
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    DC seems to be using the Multiverse about as much as it did in Pre-COIE days, which is about right. Even back then, one could go through many months at DC without nary a mention of the Multiverse, though a multiverse-spanning CRISIS was guaranteed each summer.

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  5. #20
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    Do people think that writers are coming to management with Multiverse stories and they are being told no?

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member t hedge coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    It just seems like they're putting artificial limitations on themselves by only making 52 worlds and then they filled them up as quickly as they could. Why? Just so Morrison can only do one story?
    They didn't limit it, though. The Multiversity reiterates that the fifty-two universes are only the local multiversity, with an untold number of other universes, as well as the universes being mobile within that broader realm, so that locals can be swapped in and out.

    That, said, why not? It's a helluva a comic. It's going to stay in print for the foreseeable future and probably sell pretty decent. Why not create or flesh out fifty worlds for that if it makes a better comic?

    I don't want my comics worrying about adding new things or changing things only so they can fuel next year's comics or spin-offs, storylines in other books. I want the comic, itself, to be really damn good before anything else.
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  7. #22
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    They don't seem to learn from their mistakes, so probably never. I mean, Rebirth was the perfect time to do this in regards to bringing back classic concepts...but instead of setting stuff on other Earths, it seems like they want to just jam it all onto the main Earth again. As if clutterearth wasn't already tried and failed. I defend this regime when I feel its warranted, but when it comes to looking at the mistakes of the past and not repeating them, they're pretty dense.
    I agree whole heartedly. I really hoped they would de-clutter the main story telling Earth. That was my main "wish"...and I thought there was a remote chance it might happen.

    I had 2 other wishes...both of which I thought were unlikely to come about.

    First one was to make Superman the only main hero to be able to cross to other Earths to explore them. You know...something to reflect that great characters unique status in comics history.

    Second one was to give new Green Arrow on main Earth a semi-sensible power set...maybe wood telekinetic powers, to give some valid reason for a sane character to be going into streets with a bow and arrow. No chance!

  8. #23
    Amazing Member mrjames21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -PT- View Post
    Do people think that writers are coming to management with Multiverse stories and they are being told no?
    I don't know. But what I'd like to know is do you really need 8 or 9 Batman books? Bruce is only human and can't be there and in JL all the time. Why can't we have a few books featuring the Multiverse Batmen? One could be the Earth 2 Batman (prior to his death), if you want diversity, you can do the Earth where all of the sexes are reversed (I forgot which one that is). You can do the Gaslight universe (although I'm not a fan of it). I'm just saying that you can do multiple books, and make the stories fresh by using the alternate universe versions of the characters.

    I like the idea of a Sliders/Wanderers team that travels the multiverse chasing threats. If not a team, then bring back Vibe and have that be the premise of his book. They were headed there until it got cancelled. They should capitalize on Cisco's popularity from the Flash TV show.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjames21 View Post
    I don't know. But what I'd like to know is do you really need 8 or 9 Batman books? Bruce is only human and can't be there and in JL all the time. Why can't we have a few books featuring the Multiverse Batmen? One could be the Earth 2 Batman (prior to his death), if you want diversity, you can do the Earth where all of the sexes are reversed (I forgot which one that is). You can do the Gaslight universe (although I'm not a fan of it). I'm just saying that you can do multiple books, and make the stories fresh by using the alternate universe versions of the characters.

    I like the idea of a Sliders/Wanderers team that travels the multiverse chasing threats. If not a team, then bring back Vibe and have that be the premise of his book. They were headed there until it got cancelled. They should capitalize on Cisco's popularity from the Flash TV show.
    I think DC is under the impression, right or wrong, that their biggest audience wants things to all take place on the same Earth, with clear connections.

  10. #25
    Mighty Member resipsaloquitur's Avatar
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    If DC were still doing annual September events, I'd have loved to see a "Multiversity Month" where every title flipped to a different Earth for September. It could have led to some creative fun and springboards for new series.

    There's always Multiversity Too, assuming that project wasn't axed. And the Earth-One titles are still going, albeit slowly (Teen Titans vol. 2 is due in August, and JMS is writing Flash). So DC is currently using Earths-0 through -3, anyway.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Yes, we have things like Earth One and Earth Two (at least for now), but what about all those other worlds they created? The Charlton universe? Or that pulp universe? Or Earth 32, the home of Super-president? Why create these worlds if you're not going to do anything with them? Just for Morrison to play with? I'm sure nobody wants a sequel to Kingdom Come or New Frontiers but there are plenty of "corporate" Earths they could do stuff with. As someone else once said, DC has a problem with letting others play with Morrison's toys but they aren't really his.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    Multiversity makes me think of one of those situations where a group of friends are hanging out and one of them's clearly not on the same level as the others and keeps getting talked over or ignored.
    Part of me hopes that Morrison's tenure as EIC at Heavy Metal will eventually lead to him taking over a regular comic company. That will be interesting.
    This is what Grant Morrison does. He writes comics with a main storyline, but within that one storyline there are dozens of brilliant concepts that can be used for series that could run for years. His Action run was filled with such concepts. He practically handed DC a new Superboy & The Legion book and they ignored it.

    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    It just seems like they're putting artificial limitations on themselves by only making 52 worlds and then they filled them up as quickly as they could. Why? Just so Morrison can only do one story? The assumption was, at least on my end, that they made these worlds (I assume Morrison was at least given orders to create them) because they had some kind of long term plans for them. If you're only going to allow yourself a limited number of worlds, why not wait and be cautious about how you use them? Set aside ten or so for popular Elseworlds stories and then only use the others when you have a really good idea for an ongoing or a mini.

    Some of these new Earth's look like they've been set up for stories but nothing's been done with them in the two or so years since the Multiversity was set up. Earth 16 honestly looked like it was being set up for a series where the old heroes are forced to come out of retirement because their children are in danger. Even the initial story Morrison did of them suggested this. Or the Super-president. All kinds of things could be done with a president who is also Superman (and living in a world where the "born a US citizen" clause still exists). I honestly thought one of the things that Rebirth would have done away with was the limited number of Earths.
    As I understand it, the idea of the "Brainiac God" in Convergence was Morrison's idea, as was the idea that the Mutliverse of Multiversity is only a "local universe." I don't remember where I read it, but Morrison said in an interview that the orreries of worlds were like "bubbles in a champagne glass." DC seemed to use this idea for Convergence as well, as it (allegedly) saw the restoration of the pre-COIE infinite Multiverse.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post

    First one was to make Superman the only main hero to be able to cross to other Earths to explore them. You know...something to reflect that great characters unique status in comics history.
    As those who know me here are aware, I'm a staunch supporter of the Iconic Superman, which is what you're referring to. He should be seen as the greatest and most unique character in the DCU, which doesn't mean he can't be human or relatable. That said, I'd rather the Flash/other speedsters be the ones who are uniquely suited to multiversal travel, given that Barry Allen (the original guy, not the Batmanified version Geoff Johns foisted on us) discovered the Multiverse in the Silver Age.

  12. #27
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    Speaking to the core of what superduperman is asking in this thread, it's my opinion that DC's problems of the last 20 years or so has stemmed from the fact that it chose to ignore the multiverse concept.

    I've said before that I think COIE was a "beautiful mistake." DC editorial was wrong in thinking the multiverse was "too confusing" for new readers. Granted, it may have been a turn-off to the new or devoted Marvel reader, but there was a "both/and" approach that could have allowed for a new, streamlined DCU while keeping the multiverse intact.

    It's the "either/or" approach that has hurt DC over the last few decades. Merging the timelines of 5 Earths was a great concept and led to a DC founded on heroic legacies, but that world could have come to life at the end of COIE without the loss of the Multiverse. DC made this mistake again with Flashpoint, though they sought to (poorly, from creative and editorial standpoints) bring back a new, post-Flashpoint Multiverse that lacked the scope of the original or even the post-IC multiverse.

    Multiversity came about because Morrison had written most of the story and then didn't finish it. He came back to it, had to rework it to line up with Flashpoint (which Johns has admitted was never supposed to be a Crisis-type event) and then finally had it ready for publication. I truly believe it was only finally published because Morrison probably has a contract/agreement that required it see print.

    Regardless of which multiverse is being used, DC still doesn't seem to grasp that it has no greater storytelling tool in its arsenal, nor do they realize that "multiversal storytelling" was their own unique creation in comic books. Some of the greatest stories of the DCU came about because of the original Multiverse.

    I was hoping that Convergence would lead to what I call a "multiversal publishing paradigm," which is similar to what we see with Earth-2 to some extent, but on a far greater scale.

    It's so simple. Let's say DC has to stick with 52 titles for whatever reason. Families of titles could be set on respective Earths, each with a different editor and creators who would have annual summits to guide their Earth's stories.

    Each family of titles would have a masthead or some sort of visual indicator telling the read what Earth the book is set on. The ideal would be for readers to try all the titles, but those who already know, for example, that they don't want to read Earth-0 stories could read those titles that are set elsewhere.

    To boost sales across titles, crossovers could happen on a regular basis (I have always loved summer crossovers, especially the great ones Marvel used to do in the late 80s, like Atlantis Attacks) that would hearken back to those pre-COIE multiverse crossovers that were so much fun. This could also lead some readers to maybe reconsider a family of titles/Earth/version of a character or story they weren't reading before the crossover.

    Here's how a breakdown could go:

    Earth-0: 10 titles
    Earth-2: (let's say the post-Rebirth Earth-2 is a restored pre-Flashpoint Earth) 10 titles
    Earth-3: 2 titles, one following heroic Alexander Luthor and another following the lives of the Crime Syndicate. Maybe simply titled "Injustice" or "The Syndicate."
    Earth-4: 1 title: Morrison's darker take on the Charlton heroes could live here

    That's just 23 titles there. You wouldn't even have to limit your stories to ongoing series or the local multiverse of Multiversity. For example, you could do a series of one shots or limited series on the original Earth-1, maybe renamed Earth-1A or Earth-1956 (the year the SA began). The Silver/Bronze Age Superman could visit the local multiverse in a crossover as well.

    We haven't even gotten to Earths/titles that could focus solely on genres. A horror universe that features Vertigo characters, a sci-fi universe with series (or one-shots/minis) starring Adam Strange and the Challengers of the Unknown, an Old West, WW II Earth, and more. Then you'd also possibly have the occasional one-shot, mini, or OGN set on a TV/movie Earth, not unlike Batman '66 or Wonder Woman '77. A Superman '79 mini would sell extremely well, I think.

    The multiverse allows DC to be as diverse creatively and narratively as the imaginations of its creators allow. If a title does poorly, it can be replaced with another title on that Earth or another family can gain a new title. Instead of just cancelling titles and shelving characters, they can be rearranged and reassigned.

    I would like to think Rebirth will lead to something like this, but I highly doubt it. It sounds like Rebirth is going to be very similar to Zero Hour or the 5 remaining Earths of the COIE. A merging of characters and concepts into a new universe.

    Geoff Johns
    Some things alter and change, but it's more character-driven, and it's also more about revealing secrets and mysteries within the DC Universe about "Flashpoint" and The New 52 that are part of a bigger tapestry. A hidden and forbidden secret.
    I have a feeling Pandora's interference in the creation of Earth-0 will be reversed or altered in some way, so we'll get a new Earth-0 instead of a focusing on different Earths across the Multiverse.

    One day, maybe someone (Mark Waid, Grant Morrison?) will be in charge and will fully exploit the Multiverse again, but until then, I think it's going to be as mismanaged as many other things have been for many years.

  13. #28
    MXAAGVNIEETRO IS RIGHT MyriVerse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennSimpson View Post
    And see, I think just the opposite. I think Morrison wanted to do a story about a multiverse, and DC let him do it (because he's, you know, Grant Morrison) but had no intention of really doing anything with it beyond that.

    Worth noting that Morrison started on Multiversity a long time before the new52 relaunch. So they might have even had more of an intention to do something with it at that time, but it took so long to get it produced that other plans changed in the mean time.

    Morrison is a very creative person, so naturally he's going to lay foundation for other stories in the versions of his Earths. Although, to my eyes, too many of the Earths were pastiches of other publishing companies' characters, rather than actual original concepts.
    That's pretty much what I think, too.

    And people think 52 was limiting? DC can't even fill half that much properly.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xon-Ur View Post
    Here's how a breakdown could go:

    Earth-0: 10 titles
    Earth-2: (let's say the post-Rebirth Earth-2 is a restored pre-Flashpoint Earth) 10 titles
    Earth-3: 2 titles, one following heroic Alexander Luthor and another following the lives of the Crime Syndicate. Maybe simply titled "Injustice" or "The Syndicate."
    Earth-4: 1 title: Morrison's darker take on the Charlton heroes could live here
    I would love that. It would give all the fans something instead of just the lucky ones that happen to like what the management likes.

    Another version of the multiverse that probably would end up being overkill that I would like to see is that every super powered hero has basically their own earth that their title follows.

    Then there is an earth with no super powers that all the nonsuperpowered heroes are on like Batman, Green Arrow, NIghtwing, ect...

    Then there is an earth where everyone exists and is the version of the heroes found in Justice League(s), Superman/Batman, Superman/WW... ect.

    And then once in a while, there could be a crossover where all the books focus on the earth with everyone to tell some epic. But since it doesn't actually use the regular characters, it won't impact the regular series writer's story.

    But that would probably be too much. And it probably is pretty obvious that I like my books I read to not be impacted by other characters that I don't read. Or to at least contain it as much as possible.

  15. #30
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    Do people actually understand the concept of dividing the audience into groups that are so small they don't produce the minimum sales to make a book profitable?

    Or that the purpose of crossovers and other events is actually to get people to buy more comics than they normally do?

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