Batman and Robin Eternal #24 preview

**bat_girl_cc** · 03-15-2016, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by Aahz

It really annoys me that Jason is again just written as a Brawler. He is a skilled martial artist and gynamst (probably more skilled than Tim) and not some unskilled brute.

Btw. I can understand if they don't include the Titans in this, but if Dick has his entire support cast in the book and Damian has Goliath, where is Roy?

Here's the thing, that happened and it will continue to happen (fortunely or not) simply because it fits Jason's character well, he's a brawler amoung other things...he was never intended to be a great martial artist, its not who he is.
People love when some writters make their characters look as awesome as possible, even when what they do doesn't fit the character thei're writting...and they ignore or forget, that that stuff will be eventually ignored by future writters who will writte that said character accordingly.
Stuff like this happens al of the time (ex: even Batman himself was once stated as being a master of all fighting forms, and having mastered all nerve-strikes, and yet in the majority of his appearences he doesn't show this level of skill, even in some of his best fighting-showings he wasn't portrayed as being this good, because he isn't! he had it for those stories, but the writters before and after ignored it...you have Bruce being shown at being in the pinacle of human condition on his training, stallemating top-tier-fighters like Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva, Bronze Tiger, etc, and then you have thousands of showings where he is portrayed as being a "good" fighter, but not extrimely good)...(another ex: Tim Drake was always intended to be the smartest amoung the kids, but then some writters wrote him as incredibly skilled fighter, they even showcase his focus in the field and everything, which all amounted to nothing, the writters that came after ignored it, you have Tim beating Shiva in a training session, and then you having him losing fights to Damian, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, etc, because he was never supposed to have that level of fighting skill and for all events and purposes he doesn't have it, as its shown by the large majority of his showings.
Jason Todd fans got so happy when he beat Shiva, and forgot that stuff like that gets ignored real easy...since flashpoint he has beaten Shiva, but he has also, lost to Damian, Barbara Gordon, Cheshire, Bane, possibly harper although it was off-panel, and the list goes on...Now, am i crazy, or all of those people should lose to Shiva? if so, Jason is not that good, only in Loebs mind.
In the battle threads, we have a reasoning, that we should ignore all of the inconsistent showings, for that exact reason.

**bat_girl_cc** · 03-15-2016, 03:45 AM

On the bat-family, according to the majority of their showings, and going with consistency, its:
- Cass (with her body-Reading) - top tier fighter
- Bruce - top tier fighter, although not as good as Cass (its hard to say exactly where he fits, because he has so many showings doing one thing, and so many other showings not doing it, that its very hard to accuratly say what's consistent for him to do and what's not, but on a second thought, i do consider him a top tier fighter.)
- Dick Grayson - B-list fighter (right below people like Cass, Shiva, Bronze Tiger, Dragon, Bruce, and Connor Hawke) he's probably the number 1 or 2 right after these people, Canary is up there as well.
- Jason Todd / Batwoman - both very good fighters, but below Grayson by a considerable margin, Jason is more of a brawler, and very good one that at, besides his expertise was always guns, rather than fist's, Kate is a very good fighter having been trained by the military and she has shown her fighting-skills many times, she also has other areas of expertise to rely on.
- Damian / Tim Drake / Barbara Gordon - all capable/good fighters, but while Tim was never very good, Damian is still a child and will eventually surpass even Dick one day, as for Babs her skill varies from writter to writter, but she about Tim's female counter-part as far as skills go.
- Steph / Duke / Harper/ Cullen, etc - not bad fighters but random, they need more training, to one day reach Barbara and Tim's level.

That's about it, for me.

And Luke is a former MA champion, but he has lost to people that Dick has beaten, and he seems to rely heavily on his gear, so don't know exactly where to put him.

**Aahz** · 03-15-2016, 05:06 AM

@Bat_Girl_CC

The guy who wrote the issue were Jason won against Shiva was Tynion aka the guy who is the mastermind behind B&RE.

Jason is according to Cass the hand/fist of the 3 ex-Robins. And while they make a good job to portrait Tim as the brain, they don't really let Jason contribute anything to the plot, even in their sub-plot it was Tim who took down Bane and Azrael.

And the whole Jason like beer and barfigths angle they are pushing all the time is not really consistent with Jasons portrait in his own series (or even pre flashpoint).
And Jasons training by the All-Caste on the other Hand is something that consistently comes up in his series, but is completely ignored here.

And even pre flashpoint he was mostly shown to be a good Martial Artists and quite acrobatic. Ok there was stuff like that one issue of Red Robin, but under Winicks (who is imo the most relevant writer for Jason pre flashpoint) he was definitely not just Brawler and limited to guns.

Jason skill level might have never been really consistent, but in the Eternal (and most other Bat-Events) they set it really low (not just fighting but also in everything else).

**bat_girl_cc** · 03-15-2016, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Aahz

@Bat_Girl_CC

The guy who wrote the issue were Jason won against Shiva was Tynion aka the guy who is the mastermind behind B&RE.

Jason is according to Cass the hand/fist of the 3 ex-Robins. And while they make a good job to portrait Tim as the brain, they don't really let Jason contribute anything to the plot, even in their sub-plot it was Tim who took down Bane and Azrael.

And the whole Jason like beer and barfigths angle they are pushing all the time is not really consistent with Jasons portrait in his own series (or even pre flashpoint).
And Jasons training by the All-Caste on the other Hand is something that consistently comes up in his series, but is completely ignored here.

And even pre flashpoint he was mostly shown to be a good Martial Artists and quite acrobatic. Ok there was stuff like that one issue of Red Robin, but under Winicks (who is imo the most relevant writer for Jason pre flashpoint) he was definitely not just Brawler and limited to guns.

Jason skill level might have never been really consistent, but in the Eternal (and most other Bat-Events) they set it really low (not just fighting but also in everything else).

Well, in all fairness, Jason used a "shortcut" which on his own admission, he used because Shiva herself had told him to do so if he ever fought a opponent of Shiva's caliber, indicating that he couldn't have beat her fair and square, plus Shiva taught him that move, which its kinda of weird, because if Shiva is a better fighter than him and if she knows that move as well, then how come that she didn't saw it coming? couldn't avoid it?...it seems bad-writting, really, Tyinion is great, but he failed there in my opinion.
When i say that Jason being a brawler fits more its character, i mean exactly that, not necessarily that he goes into bars all the time, also like i said he's a very good fighter, but when you think about a martial artist, you think about someone calm, focused, disciplined, that's simply not Jason...he's angry, a bit crazy, violent, etc. i'm not saying that he's a chump or anything like that, he's serious, dangerous, and unpredictable in a way, but his skills have more to do with gadgets, guns, prep, and the like.
Jason Todd is DC's Frank Castle, from time to time, comes a writter that tries to show them as martial artists, and it never works, it feels forced for the most part, and it never sticks...they had Frank having good showings in fights against people like Captain America, Daredevil, and others, but it never sticks...the next writter has him being portrayed as someone that can barely fight when compared to Cap and DD...and so does the next writter, and the next...then, comes a writter who wants to show of the Punisher's fighting skills, but the next writter ignores it, and so does the next writter, and so on, and the cicle continues...

**bat_girl_cc** · 03-15-2016, 12:05 PM

But i agree that Tim seems to be getting the longer end of the stick, which its a good thing, since he has received the worst treatment of all Robins so far in the New 52, Jason hasn't fared much better though.

**REAL** · 03-15-2016, 02:02 PM

Heh, liked the banter between Jason and Tim.