New Avengers discussion- Tony Stark is right.

[hammergiant]

I love the scope of NA. It's what big idea superhero comics should be, IMO. The heroes within are presented with some very weighty moral choices, but do we all agree that the Illuminati is doing the right thing? Stark and the boys are right to take all of these precautions and to be prepared to execute them. Captain America presents an opposing view, but it appears that Cap's "plan" is the same as that of the Great Society, to basically hope everything turns out alright without considering all options and measures. This is the end of everything, after all.

Do they remain moral men and let the Earth die if they fail or do they use every option available to them, including the "unthinkable"? How long before the odds catch up to them?

The Illuminati have done terrible things, and possibly more horrible things to come before this is all finished. It's already caused sacrifice and cast shadows upon their souls (those which still have them). The choices and actions they've taken have obviously burdened them to a great degree, but what other choice could they make? What would we ask of our heroes so that they might save us all?

[Mahes]

I think we've seen a lot of debate on the recap topics about who truly is right when it comes to a problem such as this. At this point though, what "terrible things" have they actually done? Sure they mind wiped Cap and built weapons but have they really done anything else?

Is there more they could actually do about the problem? Absolutely. As it is, they actually have kept secret the reason the Builders were after Earth at all in the first place.

[Daeron]

I think the only mistake they are making is that they limit themselves too much by not working together on solutions. Individually they are making the most of their resources to defend against the incursions, but there's very little synergy. At a certain point, they should have decided that as far as last resorts go, they're fully stacked and that they needed to take bigger risks. It kind of comes across as them having already too much on their shoulders, so nobody really wants to take the lead, but that's what they need most. Instead most of them are already cracking under the pressure.

[hammergiant]

I think we've seen a lot of debate on the recap topics about who truly is right when it comes to a problem such as this. At this point though, what "terrible things" have they actually done? Sure they mind wiped Cap and built weapons but have they really done anything else?

Is there more they could actually do about the problem? Absolutely. As it is, they actually have kept secret the reason the Builders were after Earth at all in the first place.

The list of terrible things the Illuminati has done is growing, they just haven't had to destroy another inhabited Earth yet, which I assume will be the climax of the Great Society arc.

Broke the Infinity gems
Mind-wiped Cap
Built weapons of mass destruction
Constantly lied to family and friends either outright or by omission
Made war upon each other
Strange sold his soul for power
Keeping Swan, Terrax, Thanos and his minions in a secret prison
Released the Terrigen Mists upon an unsuspecting populace
Manipulated people and events to further their own agenda

It's a lot of heavy stuff we wouldn't necessarily expect from heroes. I will agree that they are being too reactive, but with the stakes being so high and the incursions becoming more frequent, there is little time to actually plan ahead. How do you go about finding the solution to something this big, the destruction of infinite Earths?

[XPac]

We probably won't know for sure who is right or not until the end of the.

I do think in principal, the Illuminati have a point. I don't necessarily think they're doing the smartest most practical choices. I disagree with them not getting outside help, and I don't agree with them not exploring more options for evacuationg the planet as opposed to merely blowing up the other one. So the execution of their approach IMO leaves a lot to be desired. But execution aside, they have a valid perspective. I won't necessarily say the "right" one... but a valid one.

[Andy]

How many times does it have to be said that this discussion is irrelevant? Bendis has already stated Cap comes out being right, as it should be.


Falling to the level of your enemies whenever times gets tough his about as unheroic as it gets. I'm glad he Illuminati is terrified at the Avenger hammer about to drop on them.

[Mark]

The Illuminati is the greatest assemblage of supervillains ever to call themselves heroes.

[hammergiant]

How many times does it have to be said that this discussion is irrelevant? Bendis has already stated Cap comes out being right, as it should be.


Falling to the level of your enemies whenever times gets tough his about as unheroic as it gets. I'm glad he Illuminati is terrified at the Avenger hammer about to drop on them.

Technically, Cap may be right. He says all of the right things we expect a hero to say about remaining true and finding a way which doesn't compromise the heroic morals. It's the same message we got from the Great Society. Much may depend on the next issue to see if that would have worked. But without the benefit of hindsight, how can the others put faith in that? They looked upon the Great Society's plan of "hope" with pity and clearly no one else agreed with Cap.

It's often been said that the best villains see themselves as the hero of the story, but really what could the Illuminati do once they became aware of the situation? They are the greatest minds on the planet (sans Doom). Even Banner, who has the most reason to distrust the Illuminati, came on board when he learned the true stakes. I'll be interested in what the other Avengers will do, because if they bust up the band, the incursions will still keep coming. Do I trust Thor or Hawkeye to come up with a viable plan? Evacuating the entire planet is an option, just not a good one. We know from Swan that alternate Earth Beasts have done this, but that is tantamount to defeat.

There are no easy answers. "The turn of the wheel breaks hope, crushes what makes us decent and steals what honor remains."

[Tony Stark]

The Illuminati is the greatest assemblage of supervillains ever to call themselves heroes.

Is that you Mark_S?

[Tony Stark]

You won't see too many threads with this title. Let me tell ya. I think the Illuminati are just planning for the worst. That haven't killed anyone yet, but they did mind wipe Cap. Was that messed up? Without a doubt, but with Cap it was going to be his way or not at all. Time is of the essence and they can't just wait for Cap's there's always another way.

[jphamlore]

I really think the books are headed to Tony Stark being catastrophically wrong when he re-creates his own Ultron network as an analog to the apparent future plot of the next Avengers movie. Stark's being isolated from the other heroes from my reading of Avengers and will have no alternative to leveraging his abilities than to create his own Ultron network. He was already controlling a room of suits, the precursors.

[Tony Stark]

How many times does it have to be said that this discussion is irrelevant? Bendis has already stated Cap comes out being right, as it should be.


Falling to the level of your enemies whenever times gets tough his about as unheroic as it gets. I'm glad he Illuminati is terrified at the Avenger hammer about to drop on them.

Bendis might have said it before, but this is Hickman's Illuminati. They just aren't waiting around for something just to pop up. What is Cap's idea after his plan destroyed the gems?! Something better will come along was basically his plan. This is were Incursions are happening and very little time is left.

[Tony Stark]

I really think the books are headed to Tony Stark being catastrophically wrong when he re-creates his own Ultron network as an analog to the apparent future plot of the next Avengers movie. Stark's being isolated from the other heroes from my reading of Avengers and will have no alternative to leveraging his abilities than to create his own Ultron network. He was already controlling a room of suits, the precursors.

He's had the ability to control a whole bucnh of suits at one time for years now. That's not new.

[pageturner]

Hmm this firefight is going slower than I would of thought.

[Fringe Division]

How many times does it have to be said that this discussion is irrelevant? Bendis has already stated Cap comes out being right, as it should be.


Falling to the level of your enemies whenever times gets tough his about as unheroic as it gets. I'm glad he Illuminati is terrified at the Avenger hammer about to drop on them.

Do you mean Hickman?

Cap was fine with what the Illumanti had done up to the point they mind-wiped him as long as he had his own seat at the table, and he's been fine with other characters doing similar or worse things than anything the Illuminati have done thus far, as long as they're not done to him, so he doesn't really have a leg to stand on. His fantasy sequence in the most recent issue of Avengers gives a pretty good indication as to what his problem is: his bruised ego. Huge hero vs. hero wars always seem to start whenever someone has the gall to hurt Stevie-wevie's precious feewings. "Waaah, waaah, the guys don't think I'm smart enough!"