New Avengers discussion- Tony Stark is right.

[XPac]

I don't think it was just CW. It might of had a little something to do with a movie that came out around then.

I don't think it was JUST Civil War either. But my point is that it occured during and right after Civil War, so there was seemingly no adverse effect whatsoever in essentially writing him as a great big douche.

[Tony Stark]

I don't think it was JUST Civil War either. But my point is that it occured during and right after Civil War, so there was seemingly no adverse effect whatsoever in essentially writing him as a great big douche.

Civil War I would say made him then most HATED character in comics easily. People still hate him for it to this day. I think it got more eyes on him as it was him vs. Cap, but as far as likability and popularity. He took a hit. I know quite a few people on here that like movie Tony, but hate comic Tony. When to me they are the same. Just one has a longer history.

[hammergiant]

We've also seen them do just about every dirty trick in the book. Someone kills me I don't really care if they are a moral man or that they feel guilty about it, their state of mind before, during or after the event is irrelevant to the end result that I'm still dead. If they blow up a planet full of people they can cry as many tears as they want and it won't make it right.

Oh, they have used an entire bag of dirty tricks, of that there is no doubt. However, their goal is save the planet and, by extension, the universe. An incursion comes down to two Earths. One gets destroyed or they both die. If I'm living on the 616, I'll feel sorry for the folks on Earth 4.6 million who get blown up, but I will also be greatly relieved to still be alive. Killing a planet full of people isn't right, but at this point, what's the alternative? They are facing the end of everything and it's making them desperate. Swan has warned them repeatedly that this will happen and that it won't matter.

Heroic ideals and ethics are wonderful, inspiring things. If Captain America wants to fight the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants to the death in order to protect a schoolyard, that's great and heroic, worthy of story and song. In this situation, the stakes are much higher. All life on Earth and possibly the universe is in grave danger. At some point, you must set aside your ethics and fight for survival. Not of yourself, but of all life on the planet. Lose, and your Earth dies. Do nothing, and your Earth dies. If a hero won't fight for humanity, including everything he's ever done or loved, then what good is he?

[XPac]

Civil War I would say made him then most HATED character in comics easily. People still hate him for it to this day. I think it got more eyes on him as it was him vs. Cap, but as far as likability and popularity. He took a hit. I know quite a few people on here that like movie Tony, but hate comic Tony. When to me they are the same. Just one has a longer history.

It's easy to say the character took a hit if you are using internet discussion boards are your barometer. But really his solo books sales were doing just fine. In fact, he briefly had 2 solo books after Civil War. For all the internet hate he got, and got people to vote with their pocket books. If that's a hit, then I hope all the characters I like end up taking a hit too because it ended up pretty darn well for the character.

And I'd make the same arguement for Cyclops, who many would argue took a hit in AvX.

[Tony Stark]

It's easy to say the character took a hit if you are using internet discussion boards are your barometer. But really his solo books sales were doing just fine. In fact, he briefly had 2 solo books after Civil War. For all the internet hate he got, and got people to vote with their pocket books. If that's a hit, then I hope all the characters I like end up taking a hit too because it ended up pretty darn well for the character.

And I'd make the same arguement for Cyclops, who many would argue took a hit in AvX.

I'm not just going by the internet. I going by what I've read in articles in Wizard and other comic elated magazines that were published. Marvel also talking about the hate mail the character got.

[Mikekerr3]

I disagree heartily with this. All of them, even Namor most of the time, are moral men. We've seen every one of these characters constantly risk life and limb to do heroic deeds and save uncounted lives. They are going to great lengths now to save everyone on Earth, only this time they are risking more than themselves. Each character is flawed, some more than others, but at the end of the day they always try and do what is right. It's just in this particular situation, there appear to be no right or easy answers. The choices and actions are weighing heavily upon each and every one of them, that is obvious, but still they struggle to find a solution to this impossible situation. Were they immoral men, they would just abandon the planet.

Moral is more than just saving lives, It is acting morally. And thier verion of what is right, in cases ike Starks's is indistinguishable form villainy. The Illuminatui, lost any pretense of morality when they betrayed and kidnapped Bruce Banner and didn't even bother to make sure he arrived where they bannished him to, The Civil War reinforced that for Stark And Richards, both acted more like thugs than anything approaching moral, Beast decided he would lie to the O5 to prevent a disaster that existed only in his imagination risking reality and the time-stream for no greater reason shown than he was butt hur. Namor and Strange normally act morally though.

[Mikekerr3]

You should list alot of the circumstances around some of these. It's not all black and white. I would like to go over all of these, but I don't want to turn this into another thread that anything with Tony turns into.

No in most cases it is prety black and white, to see shades of gray the blackness of what they did you have to add in your own white since it doesn't exist in the story

For example:

what possible justification could thier be for him bugging and booby-trapping Stiderman costume?

What possible justifies him lying to She-Hulk, sleeping with her and then injecting her with Canaanites to cover up his own crime?

What shade of gray is ther in committing an act of political terrorism, shooting an ambassador, for PR purposes? That was a textbook example of what the term terrorism actual means, inciting fear through violence for political purposes. You won't find a legal or formal definition of the term that it does not meet

[hammergiant]

Moral is more than just saving lives, It is acting morally. And thier verion of what is right, in cases ike Starks's is indistinguishable form villainy. The Illuminatui, lost any pretense of morality when they betrayed and kidnapped Bruce Banner and didn't even bother to make sure he arrived where they bannished him to, The Civil War reinforced that for Stark And Richards, both acted more like thugs than anything approaching moral, Beast decided he would lie to the O5 to prevent a disaster that existed only in his imagination risking reality and the time-stream for no greater reason shown than he was butt hur. Namor and Strange normally act morally though.

I'm less concerned with continuity than the parameters of this current New Avengers tale. The current Illuminati is different than that first bunch in scope and deed. Banner obviously got over his anger since he joined the band. In this context and given the stakes, can we really say Ironman is playing a villain? He, and the rest of the Illuminati, are fighting to save the planet by any means at their disposal. What would we have them do? Stark can be a egomaniacal ass but at the end of the day he does much more good than harm. In this story he's trying everything he can do to save the world. Were he a villain, he'd be a better version of Iron Monger or Firepower or something.

[XPac]

I'm not just going by the internet. I going by what I've read in articles in Wizard and other comic elated magazines that were published. Marvel also talking about the hate mail the character got.

Yeah, but if you consider how much bigger the character was after Civil War than he was before, then really how much did that hate mail really amount to? I would argue not very much.

The simple truth is that Stark ended up becoming one of marvels biggest characters. And that period of growth occured right after Civil War. Again, I'm not arguing it occured BECAUSE of Civil War. But I am suggesting that any "hate" the character gained from a certain portion of the fan base proved to have an entirely negligable effect.

[XPac]

I'm less concerned with continuity than the parameters of this current New Avengers tale. The current Illuminati is different than that first bunch in scope and deed. Banner obviously got over his anger since he joined the band. In this context and given the stakes, can we really say Ironman is playing a villain? He, and the rest of the Illuminati, are fighting to save the planet by any means at their disposal. What would we have them do? Stark can be a egomaniacal ass but at the end of the day he does much more good than harm. In this story he's trying everything he can do to save the world. Were he a villain, he'd be a better version of Iron Monger or Firepower or something.

The problem is they're not fighting the incursion by any means at their disposal. They're doing exactly ONE thing... blowing up planets with bombs.

Does that make them villains? Depends on one's perspective I suppose. From the Great Society's perspective you can argue they look that way. If the Great Society showed up and did exactly what the Illuminati in an Avengers book, you could certainly argue they're the "bad guys."

And I suspect the rest of the 616 would argue the Illuminati are being both stupid and selfish for not blowing up their own world (like Galactus and the Builders suggested) when their present course of actions is continuing the threat to the rest of the universe rather than ending it. So from everyone else's perspective, the Illuminati might look like villains too.

[Tony Stark]

No in most cases it is prety black and white, to see shades of gray the blackness of what they did you have to add in your own white since it doesn't exist in the story

For example:

what possible justification could thier be for him bugging and booby-trapping Stiderman costume?

What possible justifies him lying to She-Hulk, sleeping with her and then injecting her with Canaanites to cover up his own crime?

What shade of gray is ther in committing an act of political terrorism, shooting an ambassador, for PR purposes? That was a textbook example of what the term terrorism actual means, inciting fear through violence for political purposes. You won't find a legal or formal definition of the term that it does not meet

There are alot he named that had circumstances. Some no, but quite a few did. So I'm not going to argue this with you as we did this way too much before the new forums. Like I stated before. I don't want to turn this into another Tony is evil thread. You have done that quite a few times before.

[Mark]

Everything dies sooner or later, it's how you live that defines you.

Oh, they have used an entire bag of dirty tricks, of that there is no doubt. However, their goal is save the planet and, by extension, the universe. An incursion comes down to two Earths. One gets destroyed or they both die. If I'm living on the 616, I'll feel sorry for the folks on Earth 4.6 million who get blown up, but I will also be greatly relieved to still be alive. Killing a planet full of people isn't right, but at this point, what's the alternative? They are facing the end of everything and it's making them desperate. Swan has warned them repeatedly that this will happen and that it won't matter.

Heroic ideals and ethics are wonderful, inspiring things. If Captain America wants to fight the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants to the death in order to protect a schoolyard, that's great and heroic, worthy of story and song. In this situation, the stakes are much higher. All life on Earth and possibly the universe is in grave danger. At some point, you must set aside your ethics and fight for survival. Not of yourself, but of all life on the planet. Lose, and your Earth dies. Do nothing, and your Earth dies. If a hero won't fight for humanity, including everything he's ever done or loved, then what good is he?

[Mark]

It's easy to say the character took a hit if you are using internet discussion boards are your barometer. But really his solo books sales were doing just fine. In fact, he briefly had 2 solo books after Civil War. For all the internet hate he got, and got people to vote with their pocket books. If that's a hit, then I hope all the characters I like end up taking a hit too because it ended up pretty darn well for the character.

And I'd make the same arguement for Cyclops, who many would argue took a hit in AvX.

And that's why I think the Illuminati will blow up an Earth full of people, marvel has found out that having heroes do the absolute worst things, that having them do stuff that even supervillains won't do sells. Money trumps heroism at marvel.

[jackolover]

You won't see too many threads with this title. Let me tell ya. I think the Illuminati are just planning for the worst. That haven't killed anyone yet, but they did mind wipe Cap. Was that messed up? Without a doubt, but with Cap it was going to be his way or not at all. Time is of the essence and they can't just wait for Cap's there's always another way.

Really, if the Illuminati didn't mind wipe Cap, what would they have done differently? I think if Cap learnt there was no life on the Incursion Earth, he would be okay with Panther pulling the trigger to destroy the planet. Other instances took care of themselves and didn't need Cap to come up with a solution.

You know, if the Avengers come to the door of the Illuminati, the latter could bug out, use the Bridge to escape to one of the universes where Earth was destroyed and its population evacuated to somewhere else, and keep working to stop the incursions from there. There is no point allowing themselves to be captured, that would only stop them from doing anything to save the Multiverse. Reed Richards should have already sent his family elsewhere (what if he fails to stop an Incursion and his family is still on Earth?).

What would Caps do if it comes to that? Would he gather the heroes and tell them "clap if you believe! clap if you have faith, and a miracle will happen!"? Or will he take the world-destroying bombs and do what he must?

EDIT: Caps would probably grab poor Hank Pym and demand that he finds a non-lethal solution to the next Incursion...

Pym Particles with massive shrinking ability?

[KurtW95]

The list of terrible things the Illuminati has done is growing, they just haven't had to destroy another inhabited Earth yet, which I assume will be the climax of the Great Society arc.

Broke the Infinity gems
Mind-wiped Cap
Built weapons of mass destruction
Constantly lied to family and friends either outright or by omission
Made war upon each other
Strange sold his soul for power
Keeping Swan, Terrax, Thanos and his minions in a secret prison
Released the Terrigen Mists upon an unsuspecting populace
Manipulated people and events to further their own agenda

It's a lot of heavy stuff we wouldn't necessarily expect from heroes. I will agree that they are being too reactive, but with the stakes being so high and the incursions becoming more frequent, there is little time to actually plan ahead. How do you go about finding the solution to something this big, the destruction of infinite Earths?

You forgot "Sent Hulk to space and hoped for the best."

Pym Particles with massive shrinking ability?

They could shrink the planet that's coming, put it on a pink clover, and I've it to an elephant for safe-keeping.