Interesting Comics Alliance article about DC Rebirth

[JasonTodd428]

How is reverting back to the aspects of the DCU that actually worked, while keeping the New 52 continuity that did work, a bad thing?

It's not necessarily a bad idea on the surface but it's the execution of that idea that I'm concerned about. Of late DC has had a nasty habit of going to the extreme opposite ends of the spectrum when things either didn't work out as they planned or when they desired to change the tone of a book or character and I'm concerned that this may just be another attempt at that kind of thing again. They also have a nasty habit of "fixing" things that aren't broken so I'm concerned about that happening as well. I'm also not finding the Rebirth offerings to be very diverse on top of my other concerns. It pretty much looks like a return to the "same old, same old" to me and I'd rather have something "new and different" then that.

[Crazy Diamond]

I'm surprised so many people are upset by DC backtracking on their post-Flashpoint developments. Aside from a slight increase in diverse titles (which could have been done without the New 52), how much of the DCU did the bloody reboot actually improve? We've all heard the complaints about characters having their backstories and personalities butchered, or at least written badly, the lack of good writers, and the ugly, heartless, forgettable stories. Almost none of the changes meant to "modernize" or "reimagine" the DCU were for the better.

I'm sure a lot (if not most) DC fans would agree the company was better before the reboot (not immediately before, just overall). How is reverting back to the aspects of the DCU that actually worked, while keeping the New 52 continuity that did work, a bad thing?

The thing is, why do you expect the same people who screwed up to the point that there had to be a reboot in the first place to do a better job now? They had ugly, forgettable, ahd heartless (comedy gold to me) stories prior to the reboot (ex. Cry for Justice).

[Atlanta96]

The thing is, why do you expect the same people who screwed up to the point that there had to be a reboot in the first place to do a better job now? They had ugly, forgettable, ahd heartless (comedy gold to me) stories prior to the reboot (ex. Cry for Justice).

Oh I expect them to suck for a while longer. In fact, I don't expect DC to be great again until some serious editorial changes happen (Yes, I'm talking about DiDio).

Thing is, if they restore enough of the pre-Flashpoint continuity, like the series shown in the Rebirth announcement, at least future writers will have those stories to build off of when the company has improved overall.

One of the reasons the New 52 failed, in my opinion, was the mass erasure of past stories, leaving very little continuity for writers to build their stories off of. Since so many writers were lacking in talent, this is what led to the awful reimaginings of characters, and to an extent, overall bad stories.

I see old continuity as an important resource for comic writers. Even if a story is meant to be self contained, previous stories can be a source of guidance or inspiration for how to write a character, and I feel wiping out decades of continuity the way Flashpoint did took away an important writing tool.

Even if post-Rebirth stories suck, I still think it's good for the future of DC.

[Dr. Poison]

Wally West hasn't been in a successful book for a long time. Kyle Rayner was in Omega Men, a book which almost got cancelled before it could be finished. Connor Hawke got replaced by Oliver Queen and then they pretty much let writers write him in the ground. The same thing happened with Jaime Reyes (who's series outsold and last longer than Ted Kord's). The problem with DC is that whenever a diverse character fails, they blame the character but if one of their preferred characters fails, they get chance after chance after chance and no one says "Oh, white guys don't bring in money anymore."

My problem with that article's statement is they make it seem like this trend started during the New 52. Comics Alliance even wrote an article ( http://comicsalliance.com/the-racial...-storytelling/ ) about that several years back so I found it strange that they blamed it on the New 52 when DC has been doing that for over a decade and they never really stopped.

Does Perez still work for DC? I thought he quit over what happened with Superman. I don't think bringing in Alan Davis (or Alan Grant for that matter) would be a problem, but does DC need Wolfman to write Cyborg in 2016?

But with Hal and Barry, they sold well enough for decades before getting the axe of cancellation. Jamie(Blue Beetle) hasn't even made it to issue #36 in one of his solo book under at least 2 different creative teams. Connor Hawke also had a few different creative teams and couldn't sustain himself even half as long as Ollie has. I think DC would be better served trying to push some other minority heroes at the moment such as Vixen, Black Lightning, Dr. Light, Fire, Aqualad(Khaldur), Bumble Bee, and Samurai. That being said, I'd love to see Jamie(BB) added to the Teen Titans to help give him more exposure.

[Atlanta96]

It's not necessarily a bad idea on the surface but it's the execution of that idea that I'm concerned about. Of late DC has had a nasty habit of going to the extreme opposite ends of the spectrum when things either didn't work out as they planned or when they desired to change the tone of a book or character and I'm concerned that this may just be another attempt at that kind of thing again. They also have a nasty habit of "fixing" things that aren't broken so I'm concerned about that happening as well. I'm also not finding the Rebirth offerings to be very diverse on top of my other concerns. It pretty much looks like a return to the "same old, same old" to me and I'd rather have something "new and different" then that.

I do support diverse and innovative series. But since DC You was a pretty definitive failure, I think it's best for DC to solidify their main books, with just a couple of innovative ones at first, and then move on to more diverse stuff after they've re-established themselves. Since they're only publishing, like, 30 titles at first, I'm pretty sure they've got some interesting stuff planned for later on.

[Frontier]

When I look at Rebirth, I see DC realizing that DCYou failed and that there are still underlying issues from the last reboot that need to be addressed, and that's the sense I got from what Johns was talking about. So now it seems like they're going to a more back-to-basic approach to their characters and titles, back to what drew people to those characters in the first place, and bringing back more of the history and legacy that made the DCU great and building off from that.

Maybe that's me giving DC more credit then it deserves, especially with all the mistakes in the past they've made, but that's how I'm taking it.

Obviously on the surface it looks like there's less diverse titles then before, but given how sales have been I could understand DC cutting back, and I don't doubt we'll see diverse characters in major positions in certain books.

They kinda lost me when they use an image of Fabok art and then talk about "unremarkable but serviceable Superhero art." I mean, I can get wanting diverse art styles in comics, I like that too, and not gelling with the idea of a "house style," especially if it's not to your tastes, but I think it's important for an artist to match the tone and style of a book and sometimes artists who fit that so-called "house style" fit the title, story, and work just as well with the writer as the diverse artists. I think it's doing a disservice to compare Fabok and Reis' art to the same 90's style of Jim Lee even if they have some stylistic similarities.

[Dr. Poison]

When I look at Rebirth, I see DC realizing that DCYou failed and that there are still underlying issues from the last reboot that need to be addressed, and that's the sense I got from what Johns was talking about. So now it seems like they're going to a more back-to-basic approach to their characters and titles, back to what drew people to those characters in the first place, and bringing back more of the history and legacy that made the DCU great and building off from that.

Maybe that's me giving DC more credit then it deserves, especially with all the mistakes in the past they've made, but that's how I'm taking it.

Obviously on the surface it looks like there's less diverse titles then before, but given how sales have been I could understand DC cutting back, and I don't doubt we'll see diverse characters in major positions in certain books.

They kinda lost me when they use an image of Fabok art and then talk about "unremarkable but serviceable Superhero art." I mean, I can get wanting diverse art styles in comics, I like that too, and not gelling with the idea of a "house style," especially if it's not to your tastes, but I think it's important for an artist to match the tone and style of a book and sometimes artists who fit that so-called "house style" fit the title, story, and work just as well with the writer as the diverse artists. I think it's doing a disservice to compare Fabok and Reis' art to the same 90's style of Jim Lee even if they have some stylistic similarities.

I agree, especially on the art. Many of DC's book have a style of art very different to Ivan Reis' such as Batgirl, Black Canary, Dr. Fate, Earth 2, Constantine, and Grayson. The thing is, not everyone likes the thick-lined approach seen in some of these books therefor Reis, Fabok, Booth, Finch, and the likes still sell as well.

[Overhazard]

Still, after all this time, I truly believe that DC could be way more diverse if they tried, they have a lot of diverse characters that people like, but they don't try the way marvel does.

Marvel pushes their diverse characters hard, and I get the feeling that they really believe in them. DC half tries, then fails, then they blame the fans then go back to the same ol same ol, till people complain about the lack of diversity, then they half try again. It's a really vicious cynical circle that they put themselves in.

[GlennSimpson]

The thing is, why do you expect the same people who screwed up to the point that there had to be a reboot in the first place to do a better job now? They had ugly, forgettable, ahd heartless (comedy gold to me) stories prior to the reboot (ex. Cry for Justice).

Because this isn't a science where you either get it right or you are an idiot? Because figuring out what the audience will go for, and what your competition will be doing, seems like a reasonably difficult thing to get right all the time?

[DrewHLMW]

While creator driven stories would be nice, Marvel has proven that it's event driven stories that get the sales, the fact DC hasn't jumped on that bandwagon yet is amazing.
Since I started reading Comics in 2011 Marvel have done 8 events (Fear Itself, Avengers vs. X-Men, Age of Ulton, Infinity, Original Sin, Axis, Secret Wars and Civil War 2) or even 10 if you want to include Schism & Death of Wolverine while DC have only done 3 (Flashpoint, Fear Itself and Convergance)

As for replacing Hal Jordan, Barry Allen and other characters of that era, how about hell no, let's not replace them. Diversity worked wonders in sales for DC You didn't it, it's working wonders for ANAD Marvel as well now isn't it...oh wait no it isn't, DC and Marvel have tried all these diverse titles and no one buys them that's why DC had to come out with wvae 2 and 3 and 4 and so on and books are disappearing from Marvel's current solicits.

[colonyofcells]

Relying on events rather than good stories is a guarantee to fail in finding new customers. Good stories are probably also more important than diversity.

[GlennSimpson]

Relying on events rather than good stories is a guarantee to fail in finding new customers. Good stories are probably also more important than diversity.

DC might argue that they put out good stories all the time, that people just don't seem to be interested.

"Bizarro", "Prez" and "Bat-Mite" were good stories. At least, in DC's opinion.

[colonyofcells]

Dc just needs to get rid of brick and mortar stores so that comics can easily be unleashed on the whole planet. The stories found in the brick and mortar stores are like masturbation with repetitive tropes & convoluted continuities and it is time to see what's out there.

[skyvolt2000]

As for replacing Hal Jordan, Barry Allen and other characters of that era, how about hell no, let's not replace them. Diversity worked wonders in sales for DC You didn't it, it's working wonders for ANAD Marvel as well now isn't it...oh wait no it isn't, DC and Marvel have tried all these diverse titles and no one buys them that's why DC had to come out with wvae 2 and 3 and 4 and so on and books are disappearing from Marvel's current solicits.

So we are going to yet again blame POC for low sales of comics?

The same folks throwing that excuse out at every minority character, odd ball book and IGNORING the previous success of said POC in books-are the ones who don't want to read them in the first place. See the recent Black Panther preorders at 300K thread. Heck see any Marvel ANAD not selling thread.

However if Marvel & Dc gave them nothing but straight white male lead books like Shazam, Dr Strange, Moon Knight, Superboy Black Knight & Hawkman. Guess who won't read them? but as long as they are straight white & male packing the shelves and dollar bins-all is right with the world.

The difference between DCYou & ANAD Marvel is this-

I see you have Ms Marvel on your pull list. G Willow Wilson was told she only had 6 issue. They EXPECTED that book to fail. Now look at her.

Marvel understands not every book will last beyond 6 issues-so those creative teams already know that.

The DC You guys did not and in some of the books you can tell the story got rushed.

Also a lot of those ANAD guys will still be SEEN in Marvel. Unlike DC-anyone seen Jaime Reyes?

Also we tend to FORGET what else was going on at the time DC You came out-STAR WARS & SECRET WARS.

Lets see Darth Vadar or Baby Doomsday?
Leia or Prez?
saying goodbye to Fantastic Four or Teen Titans pretending to be Young Avengers?
goodbye to Ultimate marvel or see John Stewart get trashed yet again?

See DC & Marvel have to try diverse books-the issue is the faction who don't want them WON'T leave them alone. The same faction who can't tell you want is going on in those books. The same faction that will cry that no one is reading Omega Men or Prez-maybe that the reason for that is you got more threads thrashing John Stewart than talking about Prez or Omega men.

Let these two TRY-they already have your money, they want everyone else's money.

[Deniz Camp]

Some parts of the article felt poorly researched. Setting aside what people think of the New 52 they launched some really diverse books at that time. It's just many of those books didn't sell and were cancelled fairly quickly. Which is what happened with DC YOU. So to complain about not enough diversity (which seems like the main reason for the article) when DC has tried to launch diverse books in both of their relaunches only to see them crash and burn feels misplaced.

Their point, and it would be mine as well, is that correlation is not causation.

Books fail and succeed for a whole variety of factors, but one of those is rarely diversity, in my estimation. It's that diversity comes hand in hand with obscurity, and it's obscurity that kills. For an obscure character to succeed a lot of things have to align; great concept, wonderful & distinctive execution, and unique niche. It's very difficult to get all of those things together, and almost impossible to know before the book hits.

It's not easy, but certainly you can make attempts; Birds of Prey should have a diverse array of characters. So should at least one of your Justice League books. Superman should have a diverse supporting cast. Batman should have diversity in his spin offs.

Ethnic AND tonal diversity can be very successful, it's all in how you apply it. DC, for all their good intentions, too often takes it's risks all at once, all in one book, leading to failure. Instead graft new, risky, interesting ideas and characters and themes onto proven books and you might get somewhere.