REVIEW: Wonder Woman Can't Save Dull "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice"

[People Of The Earth]

Fame isn't necessarily the same thing as popularity and fame doesn't always translate into interest. People know these characters yes but even batman struggled on the big screen years after Burton left up until TDK. Superman faded in the movies after the early 80s, WW didn't even have a presence until now. This is a post Avengers, post Deadpool market. That being said 850 mil in a month could hardly be called an under performance by anyone. The movie is actually doing better in markets where people are not as familiar with the characters which makes sense in today's saturated superhero market.

And why do you think that happened? Can anyone pretend BatClooney's movies were "quality" movies ? Can anyone pretend Returns was a good Superman movie ? Or even a good comicbook movie ?
At the end of the day, popularity, or fame, is giving a much better head start to any such project, than the contrary.
But it's not what makes a movie "good". At all. Quality is.

And honestly, this money obsession needs to stop, that's exactly the point I'm trying to convey here: making money doesn't make a movie "good", just makes it profitable.
Audiences don't care about whether or not a movie is profitable, they care about whether or not it's "good".
You keep saying those numbers as if they translate into "this movie was good".
It doesn't work like that.
Studios care only about money, but they are not crazy either: they know it's easier to make money with a movie that is good, positively received, than the other way around.
Can you say this about BvS tbh ? I know I can't.

[inisideguy]

And why do you think that happened? Can anyone pretend BatClooney's movies were "quality" movies ? Can anyone pretend Returns was a good Superman movie ? Or even a good comicbook movie ?
At the end of the day, popularity, or fame, is giving a much better head start to any such project, than the contrary.
But it's not what makes a movie "good". At all. Quality is.

And honestly, this money obsession needs to stop, that's exactly the point I'm trying to convey here: making money doesn't make a movie "good", just makes it profitable.
Audiences don't care about whether or not a movie is profitable, they care about whether or not it's "good".
You keep saying those numbers as if they translate into "this movie was good".
It doesn't work like that.
Studios care only about money, but they are not crazy either: they know it's easier to make money with a movie that is good, positively received, than the other way around.
Can you say this about BvS tbh ? I know I can't.

But different people think different movies are good. Can you honestly say that you think every movie that the majority of people feel is good to be good? And vice versa?I mean someone must think the transformer movies are good right? Cause people go and see them.

[People Of The Earth]

Thank you. This whole well they are famous so it should do better is silly. Hunger Games was more famous than american sniper and was just coming off a 450 million dollar movie. American Sniper beat the next hunger games at the box office. No one knew what Avatar was and it brought in more money than any comic book movie with famous comic book characters ever. Deadpool wasnt famous and he beat the last two spiderman movies at the box office and no one is gonna tell me spidey isnt more famous.

No, the point was "they are famous, and because quality wasn't there, they didn't do as much as they should have" or "despite quality not being there, they did the money that they did".
Being "famous" or making money isn't what's define a movie as good.
All these movies you just cited were good movies. Avatar was visually riveting to the point it shaked the whole industry, its case is a bit different here but I digress.

But different people think different movies are good. Can you honestly say that you think every movie that the majority of people feel is good to be good? And vice versa?I mean someone must think the transformer movies are good right? Cause people go and see them.

They are widely entertaining, that's their saving grace imo.
I believe a flawed movie has at least to be entertaining to its audience in order to work out.
Bay knows how to create mindless fun out of his movies, doesn't sell anyone on the quality though.

[The New Black]

I don't know how you call a movie this poorly received by critics then.
My understanding is that the majority of critics were disappointed in this movie, and the majority of moviegoing audience found it mediocre to okay-ish.
On a personal level, between friends, family and colleagues, the same sentiment prevails, even worse in some cases: as I said, some of my friends actually regretted going to see it in theater.

And I know people who enjoyed the Green Lantern movie. Personal anecdotes are like that.

A lot of critics panned/hated/whatever BvS. (Check those reviews, and see how many don't like it because it's not like a Marvel movie. Or see how many of those critics don't understand that Superman and Captain America are from different universes and owned by different companies.) Some critics actually liked it. So yes, it's a largely negative response from critics, but it's not a completely negative response. On the other hand, there must be some people who like the movie though, because it's made over 800 million globally. So there's a disconnect here between the critics and the fans.

Then again, try to find a good review of complete failures like Catwoman or Fantastic Four (2015). Those were reviled by critics and fans alike.

[inisideguy]

No, the point was "they are famous, and because quality wasn't there, they didn't do as much as they should have" or "despite quality not being there, they did the money that they did".
Being "famous" or making money isn't what's define a movie as good.
All these movies you just cited were good movies. Avatar was visually riveting to the point it shaked the whole industry, its case is a bit different here but I digress.

But as others have pointed out the last time superman had a huge movie was 1980. He isnt some recent proven box office draw. He is a decent draw. But even if someone makes the perfect superman movie whatever that means it aint gonna blow some box office windows apart. His comics dont sell all that great. He is famous but not to the extent of an omg its superman. He aint star wars. Hes not even Indiana Jones. I just dont like people trying to compare this with marvel stuff. First IM did good Hulk didnt do so good. Cap did ok, thor did ok. But they put it all together for one movie and it blew up. But DC has taken a different approach. People can argue that the approach was not as good. But honestly thats still kind of up in the air. SS can be a big hit and wonder woman as well. I mean if wonder woman makes 200 million domestic that has got to be a huge hit for a female superhero movie. I cant see it not doing that to be honest. But even if it makes 150 million domestic it should be considered a hit. No female superhero movies have done anything. What I cant stand is cap movies make 165 million and people say oh look how good it did! Like no one knew who cap was. The guy has been around forever and is part of the largest comic book industry in the country. But watch. If this first wonder woman movie does captain america box office numbers these boards will be filled with people saying it was a failure. Just watch.

[inisideguy]

And I know people who enjoyed the Green Lantern movie. Personal anecdotes are like that.

A lot of critics panned/hated/whatever BvS. (Check those reviews, and see how many don't like it because it's not like a Marvel movie. Or see how many of those critics don't understand that Superman and Captain America are from different universes and owned by different companies.) Some critics actually liked it. So yes, it's a largely negative response from critics, but it's not a completely negative response. On the other hand, there must be some people who like the movie though, because it's made over 800 million globally. So there's a disconnect here between the critics and the fans.

Then again, try to find a good review of complete failures like Catwoman or Fantastic Four (2015). Those were reviled by critics and fans alike.

To this day I cant understand the general fan hate of Green Lantern compared to other cbms. I try but I dont think I will ever get it.

[dragonmp93]

DC's "bad word of mouth" = $800+ million.

Marvel's "general good will" = 9 of their 12 movies making significantly LESS. Compared to BvS, Marvel isn't even batting 50%, and that includes movies after their HUGE home run in Avengers.

"Let's go see 'Cyborg,' the previews look cool." "No, that other movie four years ago by a different director about different characters got bad critical reviews, so I can't go see this no matter how good the previews are." I just don't picture that conversation taking place.

You dont use the internet often, isnt it ?. Not saying that everyone will think like that; but given that the general public has problems keeping the MCU and the FOX movies separated.........................................

Marvel's success varies quite a bit; even with the Marvel brand at an all-time high, Ant-Man didn't come close to Iron Man 3 and the Avengers movies. All that good will is $300 million and counting behind the bad word of BvS. Civil War will likely crush BvS, but I doubt Thor 3 will do as well. People pick and choose individual movies to go to; they don't go to all Marvel, and they likely won't skip all DC. I suspect Suicide Squad will do just fine.

Now, I'm not arguing that BvS couldn't have done better. But, all the doom and gloom is rather funny. I wish my "failures" made that much money.



Yes, because Thor's better reviews have led to a such a successful franchise that makes more money. Oh, wait, that didn't happen. But everyone loved Ant-Man. Not enough for it to make more money either. Neither did Cap (so far). Nor Iron Man 2 out of 3 times.



So fun that 9 out of 12 movies made significantly less than BvS. Where, oh where, were all the people having fun? Seems more of them were at BvS.

You know that you are basically comparing a movie about these 3, who are more famous than all the Avengers together:



With a movie that was just about him:



Big fish in small pound.

[inisideguy]

You dont use the internet often, isnt it ?. Not saying that everyone will think like that; but given that the general public has problems keeping the MCU and the FOX movies separated.........................................



You know that you are basically comparing a movie about these 3, who are more famous than all the Avengers together:



With a movie that was just about him:



Big fish in small pound.

Playing marvel off as the underdog doesnt really work anymore. They are not the underdog. But lots of marvel fans like acting like they are. Things change.

[Gray Lensman]

To this day I cant understand the general fan hate of Green Lantern compared to other cbms. I try but I dont think I will ever get it.

Some of the hate is from the collateral damage of the Green Lantern film. The animated series being cancelled is blamed on the failure of the film by many fans.

Personally my main problem with that film was trying to cram too damned much into it, and how exposition was used too much as a result. Less stuff, more development, and more showing instead of telling I think could have saved the film - even with all the same actors and effects.

[inisideguy]

Some of the hate is from the collateral damage of the Green Lantern film. The animated series being cancelled is blamed on the failure of the film by many fans.

Personally my main problem with that film was trying to cram too damned much into it, and how exposition was used too much as a result. Less stuff, more development, and more showing instead of telling I think could have saved the film - even with all the same actors and effects.

I didnt think it was great. But honestly I didnt think it was worse than cap 1 or thor 1 or 2 or many other cbms. I think there was alot of room there for it to grow. Oh well water over the dam as they say.

[People Of The Earth]

And I know people who enjoyed the Green Lantern movie. Personal anecdotes are like that.

A lot of critics panned/hated/whatever BvS. (Check those reviews, and see how many don't like it because it's not like a Marvel movie. Or see how many of those critics don't understand that Superman and Captain America are from different universes and owned by different companies.) Some critics actually liked it. So yes, it's a largely negative response from critics, but it's not a completely negative response. On the other hand, there must be some people who like the movie though, because it's made over 800 million globally. So there's a disconnect here between the critics and the fans.

Then again, try to find a good review of complete failures like Catwoman or Fantastic Four (2015). Those were reviled by critics and fans alike.

Most people were going to see this movie no matter what, because it was Batman meeting Superman, Batman VERSUS Superman.
I actually think that first weekend at 400M is a testimony of that general excitement around this movie, and to how big these characters are to people.
The following weeks are a testimony of what happens when quality doesn't live up to the expectations though.
You yourself admit the public reaction was less warmer than expected.

But as others have pointed out the last time superman had a huge movie was 1980. He isnt some recent proven box office draw. He is a decent draw. But even if someone makes the perfect superman movie whatever that means it aint gonna blow some box office windows apart. His comics dont sell all that great. He is famous but not to the extent of an omg its superman. He aint star wars. Hes not even Indiana Jones.

Come on now, Superman is Superman. He's like Spider-Man, he's known on every continent of this world. He's actually one of the few comicbook characters that was known to the general audience before all that hero craze era started and this, for decades. Litterally, decades. Why are you downplaying him like that ?
And how many comics was Ant-Man selling, or Guardians of the Galaxy, before their movies went out ? Or Iron Man ?

I just dont like people trying to compare this with marvel stuff. First IM did good Hulk didnt do so good. Cap did ok, thor did ok. But they put it all together for one movie and it blew up. But DC has taken a different approach. People can argue that the approach was not as good. But honestly thats still kind of up in the air.

Well, that's a comparison I'm not making, that a lot of people are not making.
The poor pace and editing of BvS have nothing to do with Marvel for example.
In fact, most of the time someone point out a flaw with this movie, the retort is "Marvel didn't do any better/Marvel did it worse".
It's a complaint that can goes both ways.

SS can be a big hit and wonder woman as well. I mean if wonder woman makes 200 million domestic that has got to be a huge hit for a female superhero movie. I cant see it not doing that to be honest. But even if it makes 150 million domestic it should be considered a hit. No female superhero movies have done anything. What I cant stand is cap movies make 165 million and people say oh look how good it did! Like no one knew who cap was. The guy has been around forever and is part of the largest comic book industry in the country. But watch. If this first wonder woman movie does captain america box office numbers these boards will be filled with people saying it was a failure. Just watch.

As a female, I couldn't be hoping for more - I want Wonder Woman to succeed. Massively at that.
Even scratching that, I want her to succeed on the sole basis that I like the character.
But let's be honest here, before its movies, Cap' wasn't widely known outside the US. Wonder Woman was.
Suicide Squad looks actually really good, over what I've seen from the trailers at least. I just hope they'll deliver on this.

[The New Black]

But as others have pointed out the last time superman had a huge movie was 1980. He isnt some recent proven box office draw. He is a decent draw. But even if someone makes the perfect superman movie whatever that means it aint gonna blow some box office windows apart. His comics dont sell all that great. He is famous but not to the extent of an omg its superman. He aint star wars. Hes not even Indiana Jones. I just dont like people trying to compare this with marvel stuff. First IM did good Hulk didnt do so good. Cap did ok, thor did ok. But they put it all together for one movie and it blew up. But DC has taken a different approach. People can argue that the approach was not as good. But honestly thats still kind of up in the air. SS can be a big hit and wonder woman as well. I mean if wonder woman makes 200 million domestic that has got to be a huge hit for a female superhero movie. I cant see it not doing that to be honest. But even if it makes 150 million domestic it should be considered a hit. No female superhero movies have done anything. What I cant stand is cap movies make 165 million and people say oh look how good it did! Like no one knew who cap was. The guy has been around forever and is part of the largest comic book industry in the country. But watch. If this first wonder woman movie does captain america box office numbers these boards will be filled with people saying it was a failure. Just watch.

I can see it now.

Wonder Woman makes double its budget at the box office with room to spare.
Fans: Yay!
WB: Yay!
Critics: The movie FAILED!
Fans: What?! Why?
Critics: Wonder Woman is the most recognizable female superhero on the planet! The movie should have made MORE! It's a failure!

[Calighoula]

BvS as a start to Warners End Game scenario may not be the starting point they were hoping for.

If the 2nd DCEU film has grossed over 850M worldwide, which it has so far, I think they're going to be okay.

[Calighoula]

I can see it now.

Wonder Woman makes double its budget at the box office with room to spare.
Fans: Yay!
WB: Yay!
Critics: The movie FAILED!
Fans: What?! Why?
Critics: Wonder Woman is the most recognizable female superhero on the planet! The movie should have made MORE! It's a failure!

LOL. You forgot one:

Anti-DCEU forum users: Listen to the critics! They're seldom wrong!

[Colossus1980]

I mean if wonder woman makes 200 million domestic that has got to be a huge hit for a female superhero movie. I cant see it not doing that to be honest. But even if it makes 150 million domestic it should be considered a hit. No female superhero movies have done anything. What I cant stand is cap movies make 165 million and people say oh look how good it did! Like no one knew who cap was. The guy has been around forever and is part of the largest comic book industry in the country. But watch. If this first wonder woman movie does captain america box office numbers these boards will be filled with people saying it was a failure. Just watch.

Will Wonder Woman have the same budget as Captain America? 140M? Probably not. But even back then I don't recall too many people saying CA was a huge success but a modest one. People expect big numbers on these superhero movies because the budget is usually so big. How great is WW making 200M if it costs more than that to make? Or is the new criteria for success waiting for international box office? If that's the case Sony should have just kept the rights to Spider-Man since it still made more than the MOS.