REVIEW: Wonder Woman Can't Save Dull "Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice"

[5Eyes]

If it's not important to you, then you stop. But it's not for you to decide for me what I can and can't talk about. Not that it's "important" to me either (it's not), but it is rather interesting why someone would think something like that, because it makes no sense from a storytelling standpoint.

The idea that a character's development ends when they get get married not only has no basis in logic or fact, it has the entire history of fiction--in every format and medium--to refute it. Family is one of the most abundant sources of character drama there is. Any writer who can't find interesting stories to write about a married character lacks talent and any reader who thinks a married character can't be interesting--simply because he's married--lacks imagination.

My last reply didn't go through .. guess I broke some rule
OK Bruce Wayne , Frank Castle if they found happiness in marriage and they live happily after --no superhero tragedy or circumstance just an ordinary life you think that would be a great ongoing series to read.. or would that be the end ? anyway I get it you dont like to admit marriage can end interesting character development on certain characters .. you think their lives can continue to be interesting ... well I dont buy that .. for all intent these characters are immortal .. even with the greatest imagination in the universe there are only so much you can do with a married character, and for some being alone is a needed charcteristic .. So yeah I believe that certain characters can't be married or what make them interesting is gone.

[Eisenhorn]

It's a matter of scale. Really, it's just that simple. At the end of the day, Batman is just a man, a human being. Before he faced Doomsday himself and faced the kind of choice that Clark had to make fighting Zod and his cronies, he simply couldn't fathom the level of devastation wrought by Superman and Zod's battle as simple "collateral damage." The only way he could really grasp it on an intellectual and emotional level was to experience it for himself.

That's patently ridiculous. You're suggesting that one of the best-prepared, informed and most intelligent superheroes ever created by either of the Big 2 publishers couldn't imagine that buildings can get knocked down and that an entire city center could look like 80's Beirut and parts of modern day Syria in a fight between enemy combatants?

There are no Zods or Supermen in this world but we ordinary folk can readily imagine that scale of destruction -- we are aware that nuclear weapons exist, we've witnessed an atom bomb drop, we've seen massive natural disasters. There are wars going on today. It's part of our reality and I'm pretty sure that the pre-Supes DCCU had many instances of those and that a 'jaded' Batman wouldn't be surprised by destruction of that magnitude. So assuming that the DCCU Earth is much like ours (excepting the obvious bits) it didn't need to be 'made real' for him. It's part of his everyday reality -- the fact that aliens were responsible for it is beside the point since humanity itself is perfectly capable of it and nature brings it about with regularity.

If we go by his crazy motivation, Affleck Bats should be anarchist -- why begin with Supes? Why not go after the US Government? They've certainly caused a lot of destruction over the years in their war on terror.

The point is -- this whole emotional journey for Batman was contrived. The writers shouldn't have written him the way he did; he should have been written to have a more clever motivation respectful to the character's years of development. Part of what I loved about Batman's portrayal over the years was that he was never caught unaware of anything -- and that he creeped out his fellow heroes because he was almost pathologically prepared for any eventuality -- that he anticipated nearly every possible scenario. It always elicited a chuckle from me whenever got Batman turned the tables in the end because he'd thought of everything.

Instead, the writers decided that Batman needed to be emo over falling buildings and an employee (whom, incidentally, he didn't really bother to keep track of or he would've noticed that he wasn't cashing his checks) so that they could push the narrative towards the Big Fight. A more logical Bats would've met Superman long before he even fought Zod (in one of his patented creepy ways -- avoiding Supes' super-hearing in the process) and gotten the measure of him. Heck, Batman should've been the one monitoring the metahumans rather than Lex -- something that important shouldn't have escaped Batman's notice in his 20 years operating.

Instead, Affleck Batman was always 2 steps behind. It was lazy.

I'm not saying you shouldn't like the movie -- it's entertaining, which is why it's made so much money -- but surely you can admit when a character is written poorly? Affleck Bats is one of the worst-written Batman takes ever. It's worse than Clooney Bats. Alfred was far cooler than he was. Bad writing is bad writing. Even a $2 billion box office haul isn't going to change that.

[brettc1]

That's patently ridiculous. You're suggesting that one of the best-prepared, informed and most intelligent superheroes ever created by either publisher couldn't imagine that buildings can get knocked down and that an entire city center could look like 80's Beirut and parts of modern day Syria in a fight between enemy combatants?

There are no Zods or Supermen in this world but we ordinary folk can readily imagine that scale of destruction -- we are aware that nuclear weapons exist, we've witnessed an atom bomb drop, we've seen massive natural disasters. There are wars going on today. It's part of our reality and I'm pretty sure that the pre-Supes DCCU had many instances of those and that a 'jaded' Batman wouldn't be surprised by destruction of that sort. It didn't need to be 'made real' for him. It's part of his everyday reality -- the fact that aliens were responsible for it is beside the point since humanity itself is perfectly capable of it.

I'm not saying you shouldn't like the movie -- it's entertaining, which is why it's made so much money -- but surely you can admit when a character is written poorly? Affleck Bats is one of the worst-written Batman takes ever. It's worse than Clooney Bats. Bad writing is bad writing. Even a $2 billion box office haul isn't going to change that.

Hmmm...let's think about this...

Batman's whole motivation is to seek to assuaged the pain of his parents murder by going out and beating on bad guys. For a man prized for his intellect, he is driven by very basic emotional issues. His intelligence is like a sheet of solidified rock over a bubbling cauldron of volcanic lava.

The whole point of showing the murder of his parents in the opening sequence is to draw a parallel. As a 10 year old he was completely powerless to stop his parents dying. Now, as a grown man who has devoted his life to being the one who can make a difference he is again forced to watch powerlessly as gods tear a city apart. He is effectively being forced to relive his child-hood trauma.

That being the man he is, it is not inconceivable that he would react to having people he knows dying in front of him as he stands helplessly by in exactly the way we see here.

[devil leonx]

I saw this movie last night and I absolutely disagree... like really really really disagree, I found myself on the edge of my seat enjoying it, the movie flowed fine and it was over before I knew it and I left wanting more. I don't get the "Too gritty, too dark" people. I thought the actors were all terrific, and there was some shocks in the movie, I don't want to spoil.

So count me in the Disagree pile, because I thought Dawn Of Justice was amazing.

Yes I made an account just to post this, because I found this review completely biased and untrue.

That is one thing I was confused about in many of the negative reviews, I was never bored while watching the film and it never seemed dull least to me. Over all I thought it was good, not great but quite good and it flowed mostly.

[Username taken]

Hmmm...let's think about this...

Batman's whole motivation is to seek to assuaged the pain of his parents murder by going out and beating on bad guys. For a man prized for his intellect, he is driven by very basic emotional issues. His intelligence is like a sheet of solidified rock over a bubbling cauldron of volcanic lava.

The whole point of showing the murder of his parents in the opening sequence is to draw a parallel. As a 10 year old he was completely powerless to stop his parents dying. Now, as a grown man who has devoted his life to being the one who can make a difference he is again forced to watch powerlessly as gods tear a city apart. He is effectively being forced to relive his child-hood trauma.

That being the man he is, it is not inconceivable that he would react to having people he knows dying in front of him as he stands helplessly by in exactly the way we see here.

Hmm, I never thought it about it like that. You've made a solid point.

I much prefer debates arguments like this than the failed attempts by some people to bully those (like myself) that felt BvS wasn't very good.

[brettc1]

Meanwhile - here is an actual conversation I had with my 11 year old son 5 minutes ago.

Xander: Dad, what will I be like when I'm a teenager?

Brett: You'll probably be surly. And brooding.

Xander: What does brooding mean?

Brett: Well...you know how in the Batman Superman movie we went to Superman always had a serious look on his face and never seemed happy about anything?

Xander: Yeah.

Brett: That's brooding.

Xander. Oh. Is there anything else?

Brett: Yes. You won't be able to fly.

Xander: [sigh]

[brettc1]

Hmm, I never thought it about it like that. You've made a solid point.

I much prefer debates arguments like this than the failed attempts by some people to bully those (like myself) that felt BvS wasn't very good.

It also forces me to reevaluate my own position on it.

Extending my theory, Batman in this movie is pretty much barely clinging to his sanity. In a very real sense Bruce is as traumatized by the events in Metropolis as the guy who loses his legs. He is, after all, genuinely contemplating murder.

The speech Alfred gives about "the fear that turns good men cruel" is of course directed very pointedly at Bruce himself. His whole life is about fear - making others afraid of him to mask the fear that he can't stop bad things happening. And then along comes a space-god whose power is such that you only draw breath is he allows it and Bruce actually sees him in the middle of a battle that is costing the lives of thousands. How do you stop that - what can he possibly do that can protect people from that kind of horror?

Look at his nightmares - it is all about the fear of being reduced back to impotence, the 10 year old who can only watch.

[dragonmp93]

My last reply didn't go through .. guess I broke some rule
OK Bruce Wayne , Frank Castle if they found happiness in marriage and they live happily after --no superhero tragedy or circumstance just an ordinary life you think that would be a great ongoing series to read.. or would that be the end ? anyway I get it you dont like to admit marriage can end interesting character development on certain characters .. you think their lives can continue to be interesting ... well I dont buy that .. for all intent these characters are immortal .. even with the greatest imagination in the universe there are only so much you can do with a married character, and for some being alone is a needed charcteristic .. So yeah I believe that certain characters can't be married or what make them interesting is gone.

Like when Jean Grey was killed a decade ago because Cyclops is more interesting without her ?.

[Darkspellmaster]

What's been bothering me about this whole movie boils down to a few moments regarding events and sequences. Take for example the point where Supes catches up to Bats in the car. After stopping him and tearing off the lid, why did he not x-ray the cowel to see who was under there. Keep in mind Clark has been trying to find out about Batman from the start of this movie and here he is right before him and he doesn't take a moment, or at least the movie doesn't take a moment, to show that he's x-raying Bruce to see who he is? We know that he has this power, due to what he said in the movie about the chair, that he couldn't see it, meaning he has some form of X-ray vision. So why not find out then and there who Bruce was. Furthermore, why did Batman not plant a tracking device on him to find out who Superman was. This same sort of set up happened in the World's Finest movie, and yet it doesn't happen here? Why?

Another example, the whole situation with the chair exploding. A few things. Firstly, we know he has x-ray and hearing. How could Superman not hear the bomb? Even assuming that it was a remote activated sort of thing, you would think there would be something that would at least tip him off to the idea that there's something weird about this chair. On top of that, as anyone who's been to the capital knows, you have several screening layers to get through before you go into the congressional area. As we've seen with the recent incident in the visitors center, there are security checks to screen people. You're telling me that no one checked this chair? My grandmother, rest her soul, had to have her chair checked out. Double for the person with the motorized chair that came in. Unless Lex was making security stuff for the capital, which I don't think he was, then how was that over looked? I know it's a dramatic moment, but my gosh, just how do you skim over that?

The thing by far that bugged me the most was the fact that Bruce did nothing about the weird letters he was getting. He's a detective first and for most above everything else. Why was he not looking into this? Or for that matter, why was Alfred not looking into this. Even just sending these things to the GPD to check out as they're threats to Bruce Wayne, I would think that it would call for looking into. Even then, where was Fox in regard to the money coming back. He, of all people, would alert bruce to this and say "Hey, these checks are coming back." Also I would think Bruce would have, you know, done some digging in regarding Lois who seemed to have superman's ear on matters. It just feels like everyone drank water that had something in there from the Mad Hatter, or the Joker, or even the scare crow. You have a detective and a reporter, you're saying that neither followed up on any of this?

[CliffHanger2]

What's been bothering me about this whole movie boils down to a few moments regarding events and sequences. Take for example the point where Supes catches up to Bats in the car. After stopping him and tearing off the lid, why did he not x-ray the cowel to see who was under there. Keep in mind Clark has been trying to find out about Batman from the start of this movie and here he is right before him and he doesn't take a moment, or at least the movie doesn't take a moment, to show that he's x-raying Bruce to see who he is? We know that he has this power, due to what he said in the movie about the chair, that he couldn't see it, meaning he has some form of X-ray vision. So why not find out then and there who Bruce was. Furthermore, why did Batman not plant a tracking device on him to find out who Superman was. This same sort of set up happened in the World's Finest movie, and yet it doesn't happen here? Why?

Another example, the whole situation with the chair exploding. A few things. Firstly, we know he has x-ray and hearing. How could Superman not hear the bomb? Even assuming that it was a remote activated sort of thing, you would think there would be something that would at least tip him off to the idea that there's something weird about this chair. On top of that, as anyone who's been to the capital knows, you have several screening layers to get through before you go into the congressional area. As we've seen with the recent incident in the visitors center, there are security checks to screen people. You're telling me that no one checked this chair? My grandmother, rest her soul, had to have her chair checked out. Double for the person with the motorized chair that came in. Unless Lex was making security stuff for the capital, which I don't think he was, then how was that over looked? I know it's a dramatic moment, but my gosh, just how do you skim over that?

The thing by far that bugged me the most was the fact that Bruce did nothing about the weird letters he was getting. He's a detective first and for most above everything else. Why was he not looking into this? Or for that matter, why was Alfred not looking into this. Even just sending these things to the GPD to check out as they're threats to Bruce Wayne, I would think that it would call for looking into. Even then, where was Fox in regard to the money coming back. He, of all people, would alert bruce to this and say "Hey, these checks are coming back." Also I would think Bruce would have, you know, done some digging in regarding Lois who seemed to have superman's ear on matters. It just feels like everyone drank water that had something in there from the Mad Hatter, or the Joker, or even the scare crow. You have a detective and a reporter, you're saying that neither followed up on any of this?

I think Supes already knew who batman was after seeing Bruce and listening in on his conversation at the party. Or maybe he just respected his privacy. In terms of Bats planting a device on him with Superman not knowing yeah that just wouldn't have seemed plausible.

Superman says he was looking for a bomb that's why he didn't see it, so that means he wasn't listening for one either, still why would the bomb make an out of the ordinary sound until it detonated anyway?

Bruce wasn't getting the weird letters. He even says "Why didn't I know about this?" Kinda suggests an inside job that he got them day of the explosion-Even Lex says i pushed him over the edge "A few letters, you let your family die" yada yada...

[5Eyes]

Like when Jean Grey was killed a decade ago because Cyclops is more interesting without her ?.

You think Cyclops was interesting with her ?

[Iron_Legion87]

Alright I saw the movie twice last weekend and I can honestly say it's just not that good. It's not a bad as the critics make it out to be, but the movie has some serious problems even though there are some very good moments. First, the movie's pacing is its biggest problem. The movie starts out strong showing Bruce parents getting killed and the end of Man of Steel from Bruce perspective. But after that the movie just dumps to much exposition and the way its cut is very disorienting. Like the movie goes from a scene with Clark talking with Lois, then cuts to Lex doing something, then to Bruce, then back to Clark, then to Lex, then Bruce etc. Also there was some stuff that could have just been cut from the movie entirely. The plot with Lois in Africa and Superman being blamed for killing people was DUMB and should not have been in the movie. Also, Bruce's dream sequence didn't need to be in the movie either. I know a few people who aren't familiar with DC comics were thrown off by Batman using guns in the sequence and how it had like NOTHING to do with the main plot of this movie. It was just a set up for the justice league/ Dark Seid. That could have been a end credits teaser instead of being thrown randomly into the movie. Even though I liked Gal as Wonder Woman she really didn't need to be in this movie either. Also, Jesse Eisenberg is NOT the right actor to play Lex. His performance was really weird and over the top. It's like someone told him he was playing a young Joker or Riddler rather than Lex Luthor. But Ben is pretty good as Bruce/ Batman and Henry is also fine as Clark/ Superman. Lastly, Doomsday looked TERRIBLE and Zack cramming in the death of superman story arch at the end of the movie was kinda dumb. That story arch could have been it's own movie honestly ala Man of Steel 2. But overall, the movie is just okay to me like a 6.5 or 7/10. The action that is here is decent but it's just not enough of it here in a nearly THREE hour movie. If Zack Synder is going forward with Justice League I hope he learns from his mistakes here. Hopefully, Civil War will be much better.

[scottsummer]

You think Cyclops was interesting with her ?

Cyclops can be interesting with either Jean or Emma, it's entirely depends on the writer.

[Iron_Legion87]

Got around to watching it on Tuesday. There were a lot of problems and by the halfway mark I was tapping my foot wanting to leave. Snyder overstuffed the film, and I think he could have cut out a lot and still had a great film.

The metahuman videos could have been used to hype Justice League down the line, the dreams Batman and Superman had were superflous, the opening funeral/death scene for Bruce was unnecessary and there was a lack of transition between scenes that left me feeling like this was a first draft cut. That bit with the Flash was so out of place that I called bullshit out loud in the cinema.

Batman's impetus in going to war with Superman was solid, but I was expecting a slightly more emotional tinge (I don't know about anyone else, but I expected that girl in the trailer to be Helena Wayne and the destroyed building to be holding Selena Kyle or something). Superman's impetus to fighting Batman was a little bit less solid, and I think it could have been done more finely without focusing heavily on the Martha-Martha angle.

Gal Gadot was a revelation, her music for fights was on points and incredibly well done. Can't wait to see what she does in a stand-alone film.

Everyone else brought their A-game to various degrees, but I kinda wished Lois and Martha had more running time. Senator Finch was fine, but we had a dozen characters fighting for film time and the hearing element really didn't go as far as it could have, plus the idea of a junior senator helming an entire committee struck me as unlikely. Again, the cameos and dream sequences didn't do much to help with that.

Fight scenes. Fight scenes were mostly great, barring one of the Batman ones.

Music. Might have been my cinema, but the music was deafening, to the point it distracted from what was going on in the film, and to the point I was actively hating the music composers. It felt like the very worst of the Nolan trilogy for a lot of it, but the Wonder Woman bit was great.

Cinematography. Beautiful but probably way too drawn out for a lot of the shots. Added to the running time in a bad way, felt like a Snyder masturbatory exercise than anything else.

The Plot in general... Eh. There were a few dead end bits like the terrorists, the bullet search, the Daily Planet's integrity, the cameos etc... This badly needed trimming and someone to say no to Snyder. Superman dying and coming back from the dead was unneccessary, though it's a little early to judge the long term intentions of that just yet. A lot more could have been done with a lot less, ultimately.

Overall... eh, I'm not gonna go watch it again, but it was an okay to great film depending on what scene I was watching, and it definitely wasn't worse than Age of Ultron in my books. I'm almost confident Civil War will outdo BvS on a critical and financial basis, but that's only because the Russo's are helming it and besides Avengers 1 and Guardians they've helmed the best film in the Marvel franchise. It won't stop me from watching Suicide Squad or Justice League or Wonder Woman just yet, and even I will admit a growing detachment from Marvel as their franchise ages and DC's begins.

In the end, I'm happy to have gotten Batman v Superman, even if the final product was much worse than it should have been. I'd love to blame Snyder and Goyer for that, but my knowledge of who did what is minimal at best.

I agree but I think Age of Ultron is a MUCH better movie despite it's flaws.

[Iron_Legion87]

Also another thing that threw me off is the cop at the beginning of the movie that shots that shotgun at Batman. Bat's has been around for what 20 years, shouldn't the gotham cops know he is a GOOD guy at this point? Why were they treating him like he was this rouge vigilante or that this was his first year operating?