Superman in JL movie (contains SPOILERS)

[Last Son of Krypton]

Yep, the "smell good" stuff was Snyder. The line comes off a little funny, but you can tell there was much more meat to that part of the story & it was probably not intended to be a joke. This is when Kal has no memory of who he is (or confused, whatever), so when Lois says he smells good Kal is genuinely asking if he didn't smell good before. Unfortunately, with the subplot edited to shreds, all of this gets massively glossed over and we go from confused Kal trying to kill Batman to "itchy" and normal in the span of mere minutes, with no mention of the confusion again.

The Kal scenes shot by Snyder and still in the film:

• Kal arrives at the memorial site.

• Kal fights the League & Flash.

• Kal turns his head when Bruce calls to him.

• Kal headbutts Diana into the pavement.

• Reuniting with Lois on the grass.

• Landing at the Kent farm.

• His hand touching corn.

• He turns around to Lois.

• Walking through corn to hug Martha, the hug ("it's really me, Ma")

• Steppenwolf's punch near-misses.

• Landing atop Steppenwolf & firing his heat vision. All the rest of Superman vs Steppy was reshoots.

• Standing with the League on the hillside.

• Clark & Bruce at Kent farm.

• Shirt rip, flies into sky.


On first glance, it seems like a lot. But if you take away the 1 or 2 minute fight in the park, it's relegated to quick shots and amounts to very little screentime. I'm not sure if any of his dialogue even survived, off the top of my head I think every word was a Whedon reshoot. This is all just from memory though, I might have missed something.

Superman helping Cyborg to divide the motherboxes is Snyder's too.

[manofsteel1979]

Superman helping Cyborg to divide the motherboxes is Snyder's too.

The actual shot of him with Cyborg pulling the boxes apart is Snyder. The little exchange just prior is Whedon. The lips give it away, although it was one of the least offending CGI lip shots in the finished movie.

[Clark_Kent]

Superman helping Cyborg to divide the motherboxes is Snyder's too.

Oh, yep! I believe you're right, forgot about that. The "Good...I like being alive" bit was Whedon, but Cavill's mouth does look normal when he strains to seperate the boxes.

Edit: manofsteel beat me to it.

[Last Son of Krypton]

The actual shot of him with Cyborg pulling the boxes apart is Snyder. The little exchange just prior is Whedon. The lips give it away, although it was one of the least offending CGI lip shots in the finished movie.

Yeah, the scenes shot by Whedon are easy to spot. Which speaks volumes about the final quality of the movie.

[Miles To Go]

Ava DuVernay has signed on to helm the New Gods movie

http://variety.com/2018/film/news/av...dc-1202725043/

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Ava DuVernay has signed on to helm the New Gods movie

http://variety.com/2018/film/news/av...dc-1202725043/

This is truly amazing news, and completely unexpected.

[Johnny Thunders!]

This is truly amazing news, and completely unexpected.

Absolutely, I think this is really good news. I bet she really sinks her teeth in! I really thought it was a missed opportunity to not feature the whole New Gods Rogues gallery in Justice League. There is so much personality to go around with all those villains! Why stop with Steppenwolf?

[manofsteel1979]

A New Gods movie was the last thing I was expecting post JL. This is quite a surprise.

Given how much Superman is connected to that part of the DCU, I wonder if that also might be a place to feature Henry's Supes? After all when Kirby introduced the Fourth World concept it was largely through Superman.

As much as I disliked the tone of Ragnarok, I did like how it allowed Marvel to soft reboot Thor and that corner of the Marvel cinematic universe without erasing anything. A New God's movie could be a vehicle by which to do something similar to the DCEU Supes while doing something never done with Superman in live action before, I.E. take him off Earth and recontexualize him as a more cosmic superhero.

[Powerboy]

I just finished watching JL last night and I must say I absolutely loved it.

I'm not arguing about flaws. I'm talking about my visceral reaction to it. And it's not just the Superman parts either. I loved the other parts just as much.

Maybe this is because I saw "Thor: Ragnarok" a week ago but I didn't find JL to be loaded down with jokes. Maybe I'm grading on a curve. Even the "itchy" line didn't seem bad when I saw it again and remembered the context. He said "itchy" but then explained that what he meant was that coming back just felt weird in so many ways he couldn't explain or describe.

Steppenwolf really was hardly less detailed than Hela (comparison again). There was never any explanation for why she was so driven to destroy to begin with even before Odin imprisoned her. Steppenwolf is driven to destroy because he's a demon, a god of evil, a force of nature. In other words, an old-fashioned super villain. Scrooge psycho-analysis. He's the bad guy. Now let's kick his @$$ instead of spending twenty minutes trying to make him sympathetic and understanding that his issues stem from improper potty training. Again, there's a certain visceral satisfaction to the idea that some super villains steal because they want the loot and some kill because they like killing and because they are basically self-absorbed jerks.

Upon this second viewing, they even explained the alleged plothole about why Steppenwolf didn't attack during those thousands of years before Superman was around. First, Steppenwolf had never lost before and he was humiliated and maybe just a little afraid, just a little bit. Secondly, the Mother Boxes didn't send him a signal until the level of fear on Earth reached a certain level. The idea, whether you buy it or not, was that Superman raised the level of hope in the world to an all-time high. Yes, as with all three of these movies, we could have used a lot more actually seeing how that happened. But the idea is that it did. Then, with Superman's death, the world was plunged into a despair worse than ever before. Fear hit it's highest in thousands of years, high enough at last to trigger the Mother boxes so they sent their signal to Steppenwolf, high enough that there was about zero chance the Amazons, Atlanteans and humans would unite again.

Again, whether it's believable that the death of Superman would generate more fear on a world scale than 9/11 or World War II or World War I or countless other events throughout history is another issue but there was an explanation within the story.

I also thought the Superman parts were great discounting minor distractions like a couple of remarks and the CGI problem.

I guess I would say you can attack the head of this movie but not the heart. At heart, this movie had all the elements and "soul" of the greatest of super hero movies.

Sometimes, I think we start hearing other opinions and it influences us away from our genuine instinctive reaction or we see which way the wind is blowing and don't want to spit into it. But, at heart, I loved the movie, absolutely loved it.

Meanwhile, my instinctive reaction to "Thor: Ragnarok" was that it was okay and undeniably funny though I kept getting a "Hey, let's do the Holocaust as a comedy" feeling. Exaggerating, of course, because Ragnarok is fiction but still I had a so-so reaction even though it obviously was one of the biggest successes at the box office while JL flopped (mostly, I think, because people didn't go see it because they didn't think it would be "fun").

But it flopped. Whether it will do better in DVD sales is anyone's guess. Still, kind of reminds me of something Clint Eastwood once said, that when he does a movie, he never gives the slightest thought to how much money it will make or how popular it will be. He does a movie because he thinks it's a good movie. If it flops, it flops. If it's a big hit, it's a big hit. Obviously, the business people have a different opinion but, as a member of the audience, hey, it flopped. Doesn't change anything. I still loved it.

[manofsteel1979]

I just finished watching JL last night and I must say I absolutely loved it.

I'm not arguing about flaws. I'm talking about my visceral reaction to it. And it's not just the Superman parts either. I loved the other parts just as much.

Maybe this is because I saw "Thor: Ragnarok" a week ago but I didn't find JL to be loaded down with jokes. Maybe I'm grading on a curve. Even the "itchy" line didn't seem bad when I saw it again and remembered the context. He said "itchy" but then explained that what he meant was that coming back just felt weird in so many ways he couldn't explain or describe.

Steppenwolf really was hardly less detailed than Hela (comparison again). There was never any explanation for why she was so driven to destroy to begin with even before Odin imprisoned her. Steppenwolf is driven to destroy because he's a demon, a god of evil, a force of nature. In other words, an old-fashioned super villain. Scrooge psycho-analysis. He's the bad guy. Now let's kick his @$$ instead of spending twenty minutes trying to make him sympathetic and understanding that his issues stem from improper potty training. Again, there's a certain visceral satisfaction to the idea that some super villains steal because they want the loot and some kill because they like killing and because they are basically self-absorbed jerks.

Upon this second viewing, they even explained the alleged plothole about why Steppenwolf didn't attack during those thousands of years before Superman was around. First, Steppenwolf had never lost before and he was humiliated and maybe just a little afraid, just a little bit. Secondly, the Mother Boxes didn't send him a signal until the level of fear on Earth reached a certain level. The idea, whether you buy it or not, was that Superman raised the level of hope in the world to an all-time high. Yes, as with all three of these movies, we could have used a lot more actually seeing how that happened. But the idea is that it did. Then, with Superman's death, the world was plunged into a despair worse than ever before. Fear hit it's highest in thousands of years, high enough at last to trigger the Mother boxes so they sent their signal to Steppenwolf, high enough that there was about zero chance the Amazons, Atlanteans and humans would unite again.

Again, whether it's believable that the death of Superman would generate more fear on a world scale than 9/11 or World War II or World War I or countless other events throughout history is another issue but there was an explanation within the story.

I also thought the Superman parts were great discounting minor distractions like a couple of remarks and the CGI problem.

I guess I would say you can attack the head of this movie but not the heart. At heart, this movie had all the elements and "soul" of the greatest of super hero movies.

Sometimes, I think we start hearing other opinions and it influences us away from our genuine instinctive reaction or we see which way the wind is blowing and don't want to spit into it. But, at heart, I loved the movie, absolutely loved it.

Meanwhile, my instinctive reaction to "Thor: Ragnarok" was that it was okay and undeniably funny though I kept getting a "Hey, let's do the Holocaust as a comedy" feeling. Exaggerating, of course, because Ragnarok is fiction but still I had a so-so reaction even though it obviously was one of the biggest successes at the box office while JL flopped (mostly, I think, because people didn't go see it because they didn't think it would be "fun").

But it flopped. Whether it will do better in DVD sales is anyone's guess. Still, kind of reminds me of something Clint Eastwood once said, that when he does a movie, he never gives the slightest thought to how much money it will make or how popular it will be. He does a movie because he thinks it's a good movie. If it flops, it flops. If it's a big hit, it's a big hit. Obviously, the business people have a different opinion but, as a member of the audience, hey, it flopped. Doesn't change anything. I still loved it.

That's interesting. Tuesday I bought both Ragnarok and JL and watched them for the first time since I saw them in the Theater.

Ragnarok I actually disliked a little more than I did when I first saw it. It has its moments, but the humor seemed even more off putting than even the first time I saw it. I mean, aside from.the Odin stuff and Hela's enterance , there wasn't a single solitary moment of Drama that wasn't undercut by some silly gag or joke. The basic storyline is good and the ideas are sound, but there is just too much humor.

As far as JL, on its own I think it's a good movie. Looking at it in a vacuum, it's a solid superhero movie and I was entertained. However as a third part of the trilogy Snyder started, it barely works as a satisfactory conclusion. There is no reason beyond greed why the movie couldn't have been finished properly and allowed to run its full intended length without chopping it down. It leaves the DCEU in a good place to continue though and I hope it does. I still wish Snyder could have his cut out there though.

[Powerboy]

That's interesting. Tuesday I bought both Ragnarok and JL and watched them for the first time since I saw them in the Theater.

Ragnarok I actually disliked a little more than I did when I first saw it. It has its moments, but the humor seemed even more off putting than even the first time I saw it. I mean, aside from.the Odin stuff and Hela's enterance , there wasn't a single solitary moment of Drama that wasn't undercut by some silly gag or joke. The basic storyline is good and the ideas are sound, but there is just too much humor.

As far as JL, on its own I think it's a good movie. Looking at it in a vacuum, it's a solid superhero movie and I was entertained. However as a third part of the trilogy Snyder started, it barely works as a satisfactory conclusion. There is no reason beyond greed why the movie couldn't have been finished properly and allowed to run its full intended length without chopping it down. It leaves the DCEU in a good place to continue though and I hope it does. I still wish Snyder could have his cut out there though.

This was the first time I had seen "Ragnarok" but that was my reaction too, that almost every scene was immediately undercut by some joke to draw attention away from how tragic and dramatic something was. I've read some opinions about how it's highly dramatic with the destruction of Asgard, the loss of Odin and of an eye, etc. But those opinions were clearly from people who have mastered the art of ignoring the undercutting of all that drama. I've only seen it once but off putting is a good way to phrase it. I laughed a couple of times but I was mostly just sighing at every joke because they were almost always there to water down the depth of the drama.

I suppose what you are saying about JL is true, that it works great as a standalone though it drastically changes directions from the buildup. I read on another CBR forum that, in the Snyder cut, the terrorists at the beginning blow up everyone in the building leaving Wonder Woman standing in the ruins. I don't know if that is true but IF it is true, scrooge Snyder. Enough! I wouldn't have blamed people for getting up and walking out if that is true. If that is true, then Whedon really did save the movie for that alone. I really liked MoS but it did worship the destruction a little too much for its own sake. Still, I was okay with it but everything has it's breaking point.

[manofsteel1979]

This was the first time I had seen "Ragnarok" but that was my reaction too, that almost every scene was immediately undercut by some joke to draw attention away from how tragic and dramatic something was. I've read some opinions about how it's highly dramatic with the destruction of Asgard, the loss of Odin and of an eye, etc. But those opinions were clearly from people who have mastered the art of ignoring the undercutting of all that drama. I've only seen it once but off putting is a good way to phrase it. I laughed a couple of times but I was mostly just sighing at every joke because they were almost always there to water down the depth of the drama.

I suppose what you are saying about JL is true, that it works great as a standalone though it drastically changes directions from the buildup. I read on another CBR forum that, in the Snyder cut, the terrorists at the beginning blow up everyone in the building leaving Wonder Woman standing in the ruins. I don't know if that is true but IF it is true, scrooge Snyder. Enough! I wouldn't have blamed people for getting up and walking out if that is true. If that is true, then Whedon really did save the movie for that alone. I really liked MoS but it did worship the destruction a little too much for its own sake. Still, I was okay with it but everything has it's breaking point.

Yeah...If that is true about the beginning...It would have been a bridge too far. However I take all of that with a grain of salt because there are people that swear that before Whedons changes Superman was going to be evil and dark for nearly all the movie until the last scene against Steppenwolf and even then he only originally contributed one or two punches after being tempted by Steppenwolf, Which all turned out to be nonsense seeing as Superman arc and how it unfolded in the finished movie was essentially what Snyder was going for, just slightly dumbed down and simplified compared to Snyder's version. The WW rumor more than likely comes from the" Zack Snyder is nothing but a grimdark hack who destroyed my childhood" contingent who want to continue to push that narrative. But who knows? I say let's put both cuts out and compare. I think generally people on both sides would be surprised about how similar both cuts are.

[JAK]

Yeah...If that is true about the beginning...It would have been a bridge too far. However I take all of that with a grain of salt because there are people that swear that before Whedons changes Superman was going to be evil and dark for nearly all the movie until the last scene against Steppenwolf and even then he only originally contributed one or two punches after being tempted by Steppenwolf, Which all turned out to be nonsense seeing as Superman arc and how it unfolded in the finished movie was essentially what Snyder was going for, just slightly dumbed down and simplified compared to Snyder's version. The WW rumor more than likely comes from the" Zack Snyder is nothing but a grimdark hack who destroyed my childhood" contingent who want to continue to push that narrative. But who knows? I say let's put both cuts out and compare. I think generally people on both sides would be surprised about how similar both cuts are.

I'd certainly be at least interested (morbidly curious?) in seeing what Snyder put together (in whatever state it was in), and also the Whedon cut before WB took a chainsaw to that, too. I think WB knew they'd be screwed regardless and hacked it for a fast runtime for early $, so there's a good chance that an extended version exists of that, as well.

[manofsteel1979]

I'd certainly be at least interested (morbidly curious?) in seeing what Snyder put together (in whatever state it was in), and also the Whedon cut before WB took a chainsaw to that, too. I think WB knew they'd be screwed regardless and hacked it for a fast runtime for early $, so there's a good chance that an extended version exists of that, as well.

If they can put out Blade Runner in a dozen cuts , so can they JL. I think at some point they will. It may be a long while. If future DCEU films do well (Aquaman, WW2, Shazam, the just announced New God's film etc) then that may give Warners the incentive to release an extended JL sooner rather than later.

I'd honestly do what they did for the 3 hour cut of Superman The Movie and do it directly through Warner's home video ,I.e. press to order to keep costs down and cater to the hard core fans like us who would pay for it. That way, very little risk.

[Hilden B. Lade]

Maybe the Snyder cut will end up another incentive for the DC Streaming Service after it launches. :P