Superman in JL movie (contains SPOILERS)

[Agent Z]

Zod offered an ultimatum, not temptation.

But like I said to Adekis, even if we take it as temptation, it still doesn't work as the temptation of Christ.

I don't see how you explained it was ultimatum. You just said it was and that's it. Zod isn't making a threat. he isn't saying, "join us or Earth will suffer". He's trying to get Clark on his side. And no the skulls don't appear until towards the scene's end.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

I don't see how you explained it was ultimatum. You just said it was and that's it. Zod isn't making a threat. he isn't saying, "join us or Earth will suffer". He's trying to get Clark on his side. And no the skulls don't appear until towards the scene's end.

Zod's statement was that either Superman joins them, or he dies with the human race. That's a threat.

The skulls appear before Superman gets his answer as to what will happen to Earth. They are present in the background when Superman asks the question, and he doesn't notice them until he starts sinking into them. When Superman says he can't be a part of the killing of the human race, and Zod rhetorically asks him what he can be part of, that's Zod telling Superman that if sides with the humans will die with them.

[Agent Z]

Zod's statement was that either Superman joins them, or he dies with the human race. That's a threat.

He said no such thing

The skulls appear before Superman gets his answer as to what will happen to Earth. They are present in the background when Superman asks the question, and he doesn't notice them until he starts sinking into them. When Superman says he can't be a part of the killing of the human race, and Zod rhetorically asks him what he can be part of, that's Zod telling Superman that if sides with the humans will die with them.

That's as in in no way what that scene is saying. Not to mention that Zod needed Clark alive to tell him where the Codex was. He's not going to get that answer if Clark is dead. He needed him alive.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

He said no such thing

That's what he meant.

That's what the scene conveys.

That's as in in no way what that scene is saying. Not to mention that Zod needed Clark alive to tell him where the Codex was. He's not going to get that answer if Clark is dead. He needed him alive.

Zod is not saying he's going to immediately kill Superman. He's saying he will eventually share the fate of the human race. The fate of human race had already been decided, which is why they were nothing but bones. Superman could either join Zod or die with them, since he can't be a part of killing off the human race, he is to join them in their fate which is why he starts sinking into the skulls.

Zod reiterates this when he tells Superman that no one will get in his way from bringing back Krypton.

[Agent Z]

That's what he meant.

That's what the scene conveys.

No it is not. There is nothing in this scene that indicates Zod wants to kill Clark.

Zod is not saying he's going to immediately kill Superman. He's saying he will eventually share the fate of the human race. The fate of human race had already been decided, which is why they were nothing but bones. Superman could either join Zod or die with them, since he can't be a part of killing off the human race, he is to join them in their fate which is why he starts sinking into the skulls.

You're not even staying consistent here. Either Zod wanted to kill Clark all along or he was offering him a chance to live. Which one is it?

Zod reiterates this when he tells Superman that no one will get in his way from bringing back Krypton.

He said this after Clark had rejected his offer. By that point, Zod stopped bothering with negotiations because Clark had made his stance clear.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

No it is not. There is nothing in this scene that indicates Zod wants to kill Clark.

You're not even staying consistent here. Either Zod wanted to kill Clark all along or he was offering him a chance to live. Which one is it?

He said this after Clark had rejected his offer. By that point, Zod stopped bothering with negotiations because Clark had made his stance clear.

I've been entirely consistent.

If Superman sides with Zod, he lives. If Superman doesn't, he will die along with the human race.

That Superman will not side with Zod does not mean Zod will kill him at once, but that he will do so once he gets what he needs.

Zod wanting to kill Superman is predicated on whether Superman decides to be an ally or a foe. I never said Zod wanted to kill Superman all along, I said the fate of the humans was decided, which is why they were bones.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

This is becoming about Man of Steel specifically the more I post, so I should really ease out of this discussion and this thread right about now.

[Powerboy]

Superman wasn't actually based on Moses, but that's a whole other discussion.

Whether Superman should be a Jesus figure is a separate issue. What we have is Snyder only dealing with Superman as a Jesus figure in a superficial way, which is what he's done throughout his career.

When people say Snyder's movies are good, ok whatever. People watched them, got something out of them, good for them I guess.

When people say Snyder's movies are smart and that people, particularity those that harshly criticize his films, just don't get it. That's a problem.

True but it does go against Snyder's claim that a comparison to Jesus has been inherent to the whole 75+ years career of Superman. It only became "inherent" as of "Superman" aka "Superman the Movie" which introduced a number of things which have now become a part of the mythology including the Christ comparison and Artificial Intelligence Jor-El.

Born of rich people/ born on an alien planet to one of the top citizens.

Sent down a river in a reed boat as a baby to escape impending doom/ rocketed to Earth as an infant in a small crib-like ship to escape impending doom.

Raised by commoners but inherently superior/ raised by humans but inherently superior.

Realizes who he really is and develops his "powers" to save his people/ Realizes who he really is and develops his powers to protect humanity.

The parallels to Moses are really stronger than the parallels to Jesus and considering that the creators of Superman were Jewish, it makes more sense.

Once you get into Moses in turn being based in older myths just as Jesus was, it may not be true that he was based on Moses but there could be an influence there. Things similar to it are classic myths and probably Moses would have been the most familiar to Siegal and Schuster.

[Kuwagaton]

True but it does go against Snyder's claim that a comparison to Jesus has been inherent to the whole 75+ years career of Superman. It only became "inherent" as of "Superman" aka "Superman the Movie" which introduced a number of things which have now become a part of the mythology including the Christ comparison and Artificial Intelligence Jor-El.

Both the Moses and Jesus parallels are inherent and superficial. Superman has an interesting tie to Jewish culture and society, but that's different from saying he's Moses, because if you look at Moses after being sent up the river the comparison falls apart. The themes and characterization signified in the story of Moses don't line up with an overarching plan promoted by Siegel, Weisinger, Maggin, Levitz, Schwartz, or any of the gentile creators who made a lasting impression on the character.

The idea that Snyder might have had Superman vs Zod as say, the temptation of Jesus makes me wince a little. I appreciate his work though I can't say I love those parallels. But they certainly did exist before 1978.



I think the popular reception to Superman in JL is helped by the fact that the parallel isn't attempted. They're there for anyone who wants to see them, but man, it sure is nice when directors stop forcing them.

[Powerboy]

Both the Moses and Jesus parallels are inherent and superficial. Superman has an interesting tie to Jewish culture and society, but that's different from saying he's Moses, because if you look at Moses after being sent up the river the comparison falls apart. The themes and characterization signified in the story of Moses don't line up with an overarching plan promoted by Siegel, Weisinger, Maggin, Levitz, Schwartz, or any of the gentile creators who made a lasting impression on the character.

The idea that Snyder might have had Superman vs Zod as say, the temptation of Jesus makes me wince a little. I appreciate his work though I can't say I love those parallels. But they certainly did exist before 1978.



I think the popular reception to Superman in JL is helped by the fact that the parallel isn't attempted. They're there for anyone who wants to see them, but man, it sure is nice when directors stop forcing them.

Yes I'm pretty aware of Christian symbolism and I never got that the Temptation of Christ was in there. That certainly doesn't mean it wasn't. But there have been studies done that show that many mythical figures and heroes follow certain patterns. There's something unusual about the circumstances of their births. There's a childhood scene that shows they are already destined for greatness. They become the primary hero or savior of a large group of people, maybe a nation or a world (maybe more than that with the larger picture of the universe we have now).

As I said before, the Superman scene that made me wince more than any other had nothing to do with Snyder but was the Superman Returns scene where he blabs about how the world needs a savior but then he listens to all of the suffering going on around the world and the only thing he responds to is a bank robbery. He's a super cop. He's not Jesus or Moses.

Although JL obviously flopped, I think the positive reaction from Superman fans was that we get touches of his own mythology rather than forced comparisons to other mythologies. He's a big believer in truth and justice. He's the most powerful. He's Superman.

[Francisco]

True but it does go against Snyder's claim that a comparison to Jesus has been inherent to the whole 75+ years career of Superman. It only became "inherent" as of "Superman" aka "Superman the Movie" which introduced a number of things which have now become a part of the mythology including the Christ comparison and Artificial Intelligence Jor-El.

Born of rich people/ born on an alien planet to one of the top citizens.

Sent down a river in a reed boat as a baby to escape impending doom/ rocketed to Earth as an infant in a small crib-like ship to escape impending doom.

Raised by commoners but inherently superior/ raised by humans but inherently superior.

Realizes who he really is and develops his "powers" to save his people/ Realizes who he really is and develops his powers to protect humanity.

The parallels to Moses are really stronger than the parallels to Jesus and considering that the creators of Superman were Jewish, it makes more sense.

Once you get into Moses in turn being based in older myths just as Jesus was, it may not be true that he was based on Moses but there could be an influence there. Things similar to it are classic myths and probably Moses would have been the most familiar to Siegal and Schuster.

Moses wasn't raised by commoners. He was raised as royalty when in actually he was the son of slaves ( raised as son of the Pharaoh's sister if I'm not mistaken). Jesús in the other hand is a descendant of the house of David (AS in King David) (Because both Mary and Joseph lineage came from the house of David)

[Powerboy]

Moses wasn't raised by commoners. He was raised as royalty when in actually he was the son of slaves ( raised as son of the Pharaoh's sister if I'm not mistaken). Jesús in the other hand is a descendant of the house of David (AS in King David) (Because both Mary and Joseph lineage came from the house of David)

Doh. Right, right, right. Son of slaves, floated down (or up) the river, raised as royalty, hated the way the commoners were treated.

Still, the elements of these myths are so common that the only reason we would connect him to Jesus instead of many other myths is because that's the one we're familiar with.

[Osiris-Rex]

Doh. Right, right, right. Son of slaves, floated down (or up) the river, raised as royalty, hated the way the commoners were treated.

Still, the elements of these myths are so common that the only reason we would connect him to Jesus instead of many other myths is because that's the one we're familiar with.

Like I said in an earlier post, the story of Hercules. Only Hercules goes it one better, in that Hercules has superhuman strength and actually did change the course of a mighty river.

[Francisco]

Like I said in an earlier post, the story of Hercules. Only Hercules goes it one better, in that Hercules has superhuman strength and actually did change the course of a mighty river.

Or Sampson. I see more commonalities with the myth of Sampson than Hercules. But yeah I agree that Superman is actually a composite of a lot of different mythological heroes/figures

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Something I just remembered.

I used to have the impression that Superman's return from the dead was going to be his ascension, becoming more divine and creating this gulf between him and his earthly attachments, which was the reason for the funeral for Clark Kent, because Clark wasn't going to be coming back, only Superman.

Since JL shut that down, I think the original plans with Snyder was for post-resurrection Superman to be something closer to Jesus in the Book of Revelations, with his own twists. That was what he was going for with the evil Superman in the Knightmare visions. The once benevolent and "human" savior is suddenly vengeful, leading the forces of heaven (Apokolips) and wrecking stuff.