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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aioros22 View Post
    It`s a matter of presentation and a matter of not clearly showing how and where Superman`s higher moral stance comes from. The Senate scene comes in the middle of the story after he keeps being contested. After the initial scene in Africa the first thing he says to Lois after she mentions what happened is "I don`t care". I understand that Lois hits personally at home, but we are talking about a Superman that also shaved Zod`s head in a building, got out of the way of a Gas Tank to bomb down another and who didn`t think twice in hammering that guy. This Superman is "realistically" brutal on his own. Who was taught by the parents to protect himself first out of everything.

    So where does the higher morality in terms of who gets to be brutal or not comes from? Presentation.

    His parents warned him of the consequences of revealing himself to others before he or anyone else was ready. They didn't say to only look out for himself.

    And Bruce's actions are clearly more brutal and troubling than Clark's. Clark turns himself over to the senate hearing because he is not inflexible and has been shown to question himself as far back as MoS. With Bruce it takes him realizing that Clark even has a mother to see him as anything than an alien who (unintentionally) brought war to Earth.

  2. #197
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Bruce is more brutal than a Superman who kills a separatist leader for simply taking lois hostage?
    Can you imagine what he would have done if he had to save his mom? KGbeast wouldn't have even had the chance to threaten her.
    Hell the way you see Bruce understand that Clark is not a bad guy but he can become one which is reinforced by his knightmare and flash vision which states he's right. Is there some disconnect?
    Obviously Batman is more overtly villainous in this movie but he's exactly going against Donner Superman here

    I think the point where Superman prioritizes stopping Batman over criminals committing a crime yeah the moral superiority angle is lost for both of them in the movie.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Bruce is more brutal than a Superman who kills a separatist leader for simply taking lois hostage?
    Can you imagine what he would have done if he had to save his mom? KGbeast wouldn't have even had the chance to threaten her.
    Hell the way you see Bruce understand that Clark is not a bad guy but he can become one which is reinforced by his knightmare and flash vision which states he's right. Is there some disconnect?
    Obviously Batman is more overtly villainous in this movie but he's exactly going against Donner Superman here

    I think the point where Superman prioritizes stopping Batman over criminals committing a crime yeah the moral superiority angle is lost for both of them in the movie.
    A separatist leader who was about to kill Lois. And I didn't see Bruce going after those criminals. He tried to run Clark over.


    The disconnect could be that Bruce never questions where these visions are coming from or if he's not being manipulated. Also, Bruce is flat out saying that Clark becoming a bad guy is an absolute certainty. Did you miss the 1% speech?
    Last edited by Agent Z; 04-10-2016 at 04:18 AM.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    A separatist leader who was about to kill Lois. And I didn't see Bruce going after those criminals. He tried to run Clark over.


    The disconnect could be that Bruce never questions where these visions are coming from or if he's not being manipulated. Also, Bruce is flat out saying that Clark becoming a bad guy is an absolute certainty. Did you miss the 1% speech?
    Morality doesn't work that way,this Superman vs Batman conflict was flat period. Superman interrupted the chase,Bat's put his foot on the brakes.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    His parents warned him of the consequences of revealing himself to others before he or anyone else was ready. They didn't say to only look out for himself.

    And Bruce's actions are clearly more brutal and troubling than Clark's. Clark turns himself over to the senate hearing because he is not inflexible and has been shown to question himself as far back as MoS. With Bruce it takes him realizing that Clark even has a mother to see him as anything than an alien who (unintentionally) brought war to Earth.
    This isn`t about who you think is actually more brutal. It`s about a character who`s done brutal things being horrified that another is being brutal, period mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    A separatist leader who was about to kill Lois. And I didn't see Bruce going after those criminals. He tried to run Clark over.
    It was hard to miss since he was chasing them across the city until Clark stepped on him. He tried to break first, by the way. And he`s so obsessed over the Bat he lets the guys run away without a care. Following the second most interesting dialogue exchange of the film.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The disconnect could be that Bruce never questions where these visions are coming from or if he's not being manipulated. Also, Bruce is flat out saying that Clark becoming a bad guy is an absolute certainty. Did you miss the 1% speech?
    The speech comes after the Senate scene where Superman is made to be the cause of it or at least letting it happen. Batman`s obessesive POV is better represented in the film.
    Last edited by Aioros22; 04-10-2016 at 05:30 AM.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aioros22 View Post
    This isn`t about who you think is actually more brutal. It`s about a character who`s done brutal things being horrified that another is being brutal, period mark.



    It was hard to miss since he was chasing them across the city until Clark stepped on him. He tried to break first, by the way. And he`s so obsessed over the Bat he lets the guys run away without a care. Following the second most interesting dialogue exchange of the film.



    The speech comes after the Senate scene where Superman is made to be the cause of it or at least letting it happen. Batman`s obessesive POV is better represented in the film.
    1) As I said, the difference is Superman is more willing to question his own actions. The things you mentioned during the Zod fight involved an inexperienced desperate Superman. Bruce doesn't have that excuse. Superman turned himself over to the senate so clearly he has some hang ups about if he's doing any actual good. Bruce for most of the film does not.

    2) Fair enough. I must have remembered differently.

    3) And later it's revealed that Superman had nothing to do with it. I think even the reports said they weren't sure it was Superman.

    The entire film is about Bruce leaping to the wrong conclusions.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    1) As I said, the difference is Superman is more willing to question his own actions. The things you mentioned during the Zod fight involved an inexperienced desperate Superman. Bruce doesn't have that excuse. Superman turned himself over to the senate so clearly he has some hang ups about if he's doing any actual good. Bruce for most of the film does not.

    2) Fair enough. I must have remembered differently.

    3) And later it's revealed that Superman had nothing to do with it. I think even the reports said they weren't sure it was Superman.

    The entire film is about Bruce leaping to the wrong conclusions.
    Yes the reporter said that it was most likely a suicide bombing orchestrated by the Wallace guy which shows the ineptitude of the director and ofcourse the stupidity of this Batman.

  8. #203
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    A separatist leader who was about to kill Lois. And I didn't see Bruce going after those criminals. He tried to run Clark over.


    The disconnect could be that Bruce never questions where these visions are coming from or if he's not being manipulated. Also, Bruce is flat out saying that Clark becoming a bad guy is an absolute certainty. Did you miss the 1% speech?
    Ummm yes he was trying to stop the very same criminals that Superman let go when he chose to only save Lois and let jimmy die.
    Why is Bruce having these visions? They are almost singularly about Superman obviously he's taking something away from it.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Ummm yes he was trying to stop the very same criminals that Superman let go when he chose to only save Lois and let jimmy die.
    Why is Bruce having these visions? They are almost singularly about Superman obviously he's taking something away from it.
    My mistake. I remembered the scene differently.


    The whole point of the movie is that Bruce is not in his right mind. Otherwise he's be a lot more suspicious about the visions.

    And what makes you think Superman let Jimmy die?

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Bruce is more brutal than a Superman who kills a separatist leader for simply taking lois hostage?
    Kills a separatist leader? Where? I saw Superman speeding towards him and then a big hole appearing in the wall behind him. That's absolutely no evidence that a life was taken. Flash carries people at speed that exceed that of sound every time he appears in comics and TV shows and nobody has ever died because of the acceleration or friction. We don't see how the wall was broken so there's no way we can deduce that the terrorist's back actually impacted it. Let's not see death and waste of life even where there aren't, please.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    1) As I said, the difference is Superman is more willing to question his own actions. The things you mentioned during the Zod fight involved an inexperienced desperate Superman. Bruce doesn't have that excuse. Superman turned himself over to the senate so clearly he has some hang ups about if he's doing any actual good. Bruce for most of the film does not.
    Getting out of the way of a Gas tank and simply letting it blow a building down is lack of common sense, not experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    1)3) And later it's revealed that Superman had nothing to do with it. I think even the reports said they weren't sure it was Superman.
    There was no absolute certainty either way, the Daily Planet`s headline showcases that. But the doubt left in the air makes sense in fueling Batman`s pov further, I would think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    1)The entire film is about Bruce leaping to the wrong conclusions.
    Clearly but his obessesiveness is more valid because of what he saw about the coming Meta and the level of colateral damage they brought and all the hallucinations. His palpative fear feels more real. Meanwhile Clark`s obessesiveness towards Batman isn`t as well explained throught. He thinks the Bat needs to hang his boots because he`s brutal....aaand that`s about it. Which on itself is kinda flat since (and again the point isn`t about killing), he`s been brutal on his own. One is better presented than the other.

    Cavillham questions himself later when going to the Senate, but until that point, everything we`re discussing, including the first meeting, already happened, so I`m comparing both genesis of the untrust that started the movie.

  12. #207
    Mighty Member L.R Johansson's Avatar
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    Well, I've finally seen it and all I can say for now, is this:

    I've never ever seen Batman use so many FRIGGIN' GUNS!! : O

    What the h*ll, Snyder... What the...!

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