What is your thoughts so far on the Superman/ Wonder Woman series?

[misslane]

WW-centric storyline featuring Hessia, introducing Donna, and Circe as the main antagonist. That would be my wish for the next arc.

Hessia has been absolutely ruined for me, which is a shame.

[Razor Tiara]

Hessia has been absolutely ruined for me, which is a shame.

What's wrong with Hessia? She's basically Shim' Tar and Nubia all in one.

That's part of the greatness of Charles Soule.

[misslane]

What's wrong with Hessia? She's basically Shim' Tar and Nubia all in one.

What's wrong with Hessia? Mainly that her attachment and investment in Diana's love life is borderline pathological. She's also proven willing to betray Diana twice for what she believed was her friend's own good. She's ruined because I don't trust her at all, and I see no reason why Diana or anyone she cares about should trust her either. She has no understanding of personal boundaries, she has shown little respect for Diana's ability to handle her own affairs, and she's disloyal. She's so hopelessly myopic that she would put her desire to make Diana's relationship with Clark better over any understanding of how making the power couple's relationship public would have massive consequences for her friend and the entire world. A cool background, cool magical toys, and cool armor just mask a truly troubled character. Hessia is going to require some major redemption and rehabilitation in order to restore her appeal.

[brettc1]

What's wrong with Hessia? Mainly that her attachment and investment in Diana's love life is borderline pathological. She's also proven willing to betray Diana twice for what she believed was her friend's own good. She's ruined because I don't trust her at all, and I see no reason why Diana or anyone she cares about should trust her either. She has no understanding of personal boundaries, she has shown little respect for Diana's ability to handle her own affairs, and she's disloyal. She's so hopelessly myopic that she would put her desire to make Diana's relationship with Clark better over any understanding of how making the power couple's relationship public would have massive consequences for her friend and the entire world. A cool background, cool magical toys, and cool armor just mask a truly troubled character. Hessia is going to require some major redemption and rehabilitation in order to restore her appeal.

Yeah, when you put it that way I have to agree.

In essence, she represents a fundamental problem with the current Amazon society, being that while she lives off the island she apparently puts the considerations of non-Amazons as secondary. When Clark's handling of the relationships secrecy proves a problem for Diana she simply acts to render his feelings on the matter moot.

Similarly while she might talk big about cutting out the disease I suspect there is some motivation in her actions around killing Clark so Diana won't have to.

Of course that's assuming she told the truth about being the leak.

[Vanguard-01]

What's wrong with Hessia? Mainly that her attachment and investment in Diana's love life is borderline pathological. She's also proven willing to betray Diana twice for what she believed was her friend's own good. She's ruined because I don't trust her at all, and I see no reason why Diana or anyone she cares about should trust her either. She has no understanding of personal boundaries, she has shown little respect for Diana's ability to handle her own affairs, and she's disloyal. She's so hopelessly myopic that she would put her desire to make Diana's relationship with Clark better over any understanding of how making the power couple's relationship public would have massive consequences for her friend and the entire world. A cool background, cool magical toys, and cool armor just mask a truly troubled character. Hessia is going to require some major redemption and rehabilitation in order to restore her appeal.

She is an AMAZON. Diana is her sister. The Amazons have always had a culture based on the idea of supporting one's sisters to the bitter end. She is anything BUT disloyal. She simply had a different idea of how to be loyal to Diana. Friends make mistakes like this all the time in the real world. Well, the revealing her relationship part. Not the trying to kill her boyfriend part.

Diana complained to her about keeping her relationship with Superman secret? Hessia thought it would help her sister if she revealed it to the world. She specifically mentioned that she even APPROVED of Diana's relationship with Superman. She thought he was a good match for her. There was no malice. Only a desire to help her sister. Also? The Amazons are a culture that doesn't put a lot of value on lying or being deceitful. Diana has wanted to go public with their relationship from Day One. It's easy to see how Hessia would come not really see the need to keep lying to the rest of the world.

And before you mention the fact that Hessia deceived Diana? I said the Amazons don't put a lot of value on deception. Doesn't mean they never use it. Sometimes it's a necessary evil. Hessia believed killing SuperDoom was the only way to save the world. She knew Diana wouldn't agree. So she decided that this one time she would deceive her sister for the greater good.

Trying to kill Superman? She's a warrior as well as a doctor. She saw a threat that was KILLING THE WORLD and she decided it was the best course of action. You'll note that she didn't continue to try to kill Superman once he seemed to calm down and get himself under control.

Hessia has made two mistakes in the interest of helping her sister. Does Diana need to give her a stern talkin' to? Yes. Does Hessia need to go on some epic redemption quest in order to atone? Hardly. Let's not exaggerate here: Hessia cares for Diana and wanted her to be happy. She made a few mistakes as far as how she could do that. That's it.

At least, at present, that seems to be the case. If Soule starts revealing that there may have been more sinister intentions behind what Hessia did? Then fine. THEN you can say she's ruined. Until we see these sinister intentions? She's just a friend of Diana's with a very different cultural view of a situation who made a couple poor choices. Again, normal people do stuff like that in the real world all the time, and they don't have to undertake Twelve Epic Labors in order to make up for it.

Sorry, but you and Brett are being WAY too quick to assume the worst here.

[BlackFeath]

She is an AMAZON. Diana is her sister. The Amazons have always had a culture based on the idea of supporting one's sisters to the bitter end. She is anything BUT disloyal. She simply had a different idea of how to be loyal to Diana. Friends make mistakes like this all the time in the real world. Well, the revealing her relationship part. Not the trying to kill her boyfriend part.

Diana complained to her about keeping her relationship with Superman secret? Hessia thought it would help her sister if she revealed it to the world. She specifically mentioned that she even APPROVED of Diana's relationship with Superman. She thought he was a good match for her. There was no malice. Only a desire to help her sister. Also? The Amazons are a culture that doesn't put a lot of value on lying or being deceitful. Diana has wanted to go public with their relationship from Day One. It's easy to see how Hessia would come not really see the need to keep lying to the rest of the world.

And before you mention the fact that Hessia deceived Diana? I said the Amazons don't put a lot of value on deception. Doesn't mean they never use it. Sometimes it's a necessary evil. Hessia believed killing SuperDoom was the only way to save the world. She knew Diana wouldn't agree. So she decided that this one time she would deceive her sister for the greater good.

Trying to kill Superman? She's a warrior as well as a doctor. She saw a threat that was KILLING THE WORLD and she decided it was the best course of action. You'll note that she didn't continue to try to kill Superman once he seemed to calm down and get himself under control.

Hessia has made two mistakes in the interest of helping her sister. Does Diana need to give her a stern talkin' to? Yes. Does Hessia need to go on some epic redemption quest in order to atone? Hardly. Let's not exaggerate here: Hessia cares for Diana and wanted her to be happy. She made a few mistakes as far as how she could do that. That's it.

At least, at present, that seems to be the case. If Soule starts revealing that there may have been more sinister intentions behind what Hessia did? Then fine. THEN you can say she's ruined. Until we see these sinister intentions? She's just a friend of Diana's with a very different cultural view of a situation who made a couple poor choices. Again, normal people do stuff like that in the real world all the time, and they don't have to undertake Twelve Epic Labors in order to make up for it.

Sorry, but you and Brett are being WAY too quick to assume the worst here.

I agree, but I'd add also another thing.

If Soule starts revealing that there may have been more sinister intentions behind what Hessia did? Then fine. THEN you can say she's ruined.

It depends on how you see it. I wouldn't say she would be ruined as a character even if this happens. Simply her role from a supporting character and friend of Diana would become something else. If Soule will make her assume a villanous or ambigous role in the future, that still wouldn't mean that she would be ruined for me. This maybe could make her even more interesting. I think that what happened in the last issue already made her more interesting.

We know that she left Paradise Island but still not why. What if she holds a grudge against her sisters that Diana doesn't know about and she has a sort of plan? When did she meet Diana for the first time, when she was still on Paradise Island or only after? It seems she has many magical artifacts...what if she has a connection of a sort with Circe?

Since we still don't know much about her, and especially after the last events, I think Hessia is opened to many possibilities that could lead to a very interesting story in the future.

Until we see these sinister intentions? She's just a friend of Diana's with a very different cultural view of a situation who made a couple poor choices. Again, normal people do stuff like that in the real world all the time, and they don't have to undertake Twelve Epic Labors in order to make up for it.

About this I completely agree. Plus, Clark has already forgiven her, and Diana has forgiven and started to trust again people after much worse.

[Lax]

Attachment 4543

Attachment 4544

Makes. No. Sense.

Circe, please don't become a teacher.

[Razor Tiara]

What's wrong with Hessia? Mainly that her attachment and investment in Diana's love life is borderline pathological. She's also proven willing to betray Diana twice for what she believed was her friend's own good. She's ruined because I don't trust her at all, and I see no reason why Diana or anyone she cares about should trust her either. She has no understanding of personal boundaries, she has shown little respect for Diana's ability to handle her own affairs, and she's disloyal. She's so hopelessly myopic that she would put her desire to make Diana's relationship with Clark better over any understanding of how making the power couple's relationship public would have massive consequences for her friend and the entire world. A cool background, cool magical toys, and cool armor just mask a truly troubled character. Hessia is going to require some major redemption and rehabilitation in order to restore her appeal.

Okay, I see Hessia as an extension of the frienememy role that Nubia always had with Wonder Woman. They fought so much you were never quite sure if she was friend or foe, and it's apparently the same with Hessia. For me it adds another interesting layer to her character. Without it she's almost too good to be true and almost in danger of becoming the plot device her detractors say she is now. With that layer she's more mysterious, because her motives are uncertain and her actions are unpredictable.

[misslane]

She is an AMAZON. Diana is her sister. The Amazons have always had a culture based on the idea of supporting one's sisters to the bitter end. She is anything BUT disloyal. She simply had a different idea of how to be loyal to Diana. Friends make mistakes like this all the time in the real world. Well, the revealing her relationship part. Not the trying to kill her boyfriend part.

Sorry, I'm still sour on Hessia. Anything but disloyal? Please. If she wanted to support Diana and respected her, she would help Diana find a way to get Superman to agree to go public. She wouldn't make the decision for them and then lie about it. She also wouldn't lead Diana to believe she was going to help Superman, when really she was going to kill him. She goes to extremes to do what's best for Diana in her eyes. She thinks Diana would be happier if her relationship was public? She outs them. She thinks that Diana would be better off without Superman? She attempts to kill him. I don't see those decisions as culturally based, since I have no reason to believe Amazons would be so deceitful and disrespectful to one another.

I'll put it this way. I'd think a friend who outed another friend as gay for their own good would be someone who has serious problems. If that same friend later lied to their friend about it, because presumably they knew on some level it was wrong yet did it anyway, then also misled the friend again so they could kill their first boyfriend when they've decided he/she's not good enough, I'd feel the same way. This person is very troubled and not worthy of being anyone's friend until they learn boundaries and respect.

Hessia could have been a good example of Amazons and, finally, a good friend for Diana. Now Soule has ruined that. I can't see how she fits into this book as anything other than an antagonist going forward, unless she has one heck of a redemption arc.

[Vanguard-01]

Hessia could have been a good example of Amazons and, finally, a good friend for Diana. Now Soule has ruined that. I can't see how she fits into this book as anything other than an antagonist in the book going forward, unless she has one heck of a redemption arc.

Really? You don't suppose if Diana confronts Hessia about going behind her back and Hessia apologizes, then there's still no chance for her to be anything other than an antagonist?

She doesn't NEED a redemption arc! My God! She just revealed some secret information and took an extreme path toward ending a threat to the world! These are not acts of villainy. They are acts of misguided friendship. An apology and an acceptance of wrongdoing is ALL Diana will require from Hessia.

I realize you're kinda new to Wonder Woman, but if Diana can forgive Hermes for going behind her back and kidnapping a BABY? If she can forgive Hades for kidnapping her and trying to force her to marry him? Then trust me, she can forgive one of her sisters for making a couple errors in judgment.

[misslane]

Okay, I see Hessia as an extension of the frienememy role that Nubia always had with Wonder Woman. They fought so much you were never quite sure if she was friend or foe, and it's apparently the same with Hessia. For me it adds another interesting layer to her character. Without it she's almost too good to be true and almost in danger of becoming the plot device her detractors say she is now. With that layer she's more mysterious, because her motives are uncertain and her actions are unpredictable.

What kinds of things did Nubia and Wonder Woman usually fight over? Because Hessia only seems contentious with Diana because she's overly invested in her well-being and love life. I'm okay with Hessia and Diana disagreeing and even fighting about certain matters on occasion, but not personal life issues and only if done openly because they both feel free to share their opinions. Hessia just lied.

[misslane]

Really? You don't suppose if Diana confronts Hessia about going behind her back and Hessia apologizes, then there's still no chance for her to be anything other than an antagonist?

First, Hessia apologizing would be a "redemption arc," though a short one. Do you really think Hessia would apologize so easily?

She doesn't NEED a redemption arc! My God! She just revealed some secret information and took an extreme path toward ending a threat to the world! These are not acts of villainy. They are acts of misguided friendship. An apology and an acceptance of wrongdoing is ALL Diana will require from Hessia.

Ends don't justify the means. Hessia's means were terrible and definitely worth extreme censure. I have little faith that Hessia actually believes what she did was wrong, so I doubt she'll apologize.

Then trust me, she can forgive one of her sisters for making a couple errors in judgment.

To me, there's a difference between forgiveness and trust. Diana may forgive Hessia, if by some miracle Hessia actually apologizes, but Diana isn't required to trust Hessia in the same way that she used to. Hessia will have to earn that back as well.

[Vanguard-01]

First, Hessia apologizing would be a "redemption arc," though a short one. Do you really think Hessia would apologize so easily?

Once it's made clear to her that her sister didn't appreciate her "help?" Kinda. She may try to defend her position for a while, but if she truly thought she were helping Diana and Diana tells her that she was NOT helping, then yeah, I can see Hessia apologizing.

Again, this is assuming that Soule doesn't have some other sinister intentions behind Hessia's motives. I'm not going to rule that out as a possibility, but right now, nothing points that way.

Ends don't justify the means. Hessia's means were terrible and definitely worth extreme censure. I have little faith that Hessia actually believes what she did was wrong, so I doubt she'll apologize.

She may not apologize for the deeds themselves, but she will surely apologize for the pain she put Diana through.

"Extreme censure?" Really? How 'bout they just don't hang out for a while?

To me, there's a difference between forgiveness and trust. Diana may forgive Hessia, if by some miracle Hessia actually apologizes, but Diana isn't required to trust Hessia in the same way that she used to. Hessia will have to earn that back as well.

Diana trusted Hermes the minute she let him back into her confidence. Hermes didn't apologize for what he did either. He just did something that Diana values more than words: action. The minute Diana had need of his aid again, he was right there ready to offer it. There was no formal apology, no elaborate shaming ritual. He just rejoined the group and Diana accepted him back and continued to trust him with protecting Zola.

Diana's forgiving and trusting nature are some of her biggest character points. Unless Soule really does have a villain-turn in mind for Hessia, there is unlikely to be a scene involving Hessia flagellating herself to gain Diana's forgiveness. She may not even apologize. If she just shows up when Diana needs her and helps out? That may very well be enough for Diana.

[misslane]

She may not apologize for the deeds themselves, but she will surely apologize for the pain she put Diana through.

She should apologize for both to be worthy of being given a chance to earn Diana's friendship and trust back.

"Extreme censure?" Really? How 'bout they just don't hang out for a while?

Yes, really. She tried to kill Diana's boyfriend against Diana's wishes. Extremely poor actions deserve extreme reactions. This all presumes, though, that Superman will actually do the right thing and tell Diana that Hessia outed them to the public. If he doesn't tell Diana, it'll make me question Superman as a boyfriend since he should want Diana to know who she's friends with and for her to make informed decisions about her friends based on the truth of who they are and what they've done.

[Vanguard-01]

Yes, really. She tried to kill Diana's boyfriend. Extremely poor actions deserve extreme reactions. This all presumes, though, that Superman will actually do the right thing and tell Diana that Hessia outed them to the public. If he doesn't tell Diana, it'll make me question Superman as a boyfriend since he should want Diana to know who's she's friends with and for her to make informed decisions about her friends based on the truth of who they are and what they've done.

Show of hands! Who really thinks Hessia had any chance at all of killing Superman infected with Doomsday? Yeah, that's what I thought. And she tried to kill Diana's boyfriend because she saw the entire world DYING all around him. Kinda high stakes, no?

And you're also assuming that Superman even really remembers what Hessia said to him. He was out of his mind with rage at the time. It's entirely possible he didn't hear and/or remember a word that she said.