What is your thoughts so far on the Superman/ Wonder Woman series?

[misslane]

Show of hands! Who really thinks Hessia had any chance at all of killing Superman infected with Doomsday? Yeah, that's what I thought. And she tried to kill Diana's boyfriend because she saw the entire world DYING all around him. Kinda high stakes, no?

Just because her chances of killing Superman as Doomsday were iffy doesn't mean that her intent wasn't to kill. Plus, I respect the fact that Hessia wanted to protect people from Doomsday, but if that was her goal she should have told Diana instead of misled her to believe she was actually going to heal Superman. She also probably shouldn't have expressed her motivation as partly the result of her deciding that Superman wasn't good enough for Diana.

And you're also assuming that Superman even really remembers what Hessia said to him. He was out of his mind with rage at the time. It's entirely possible he didn't hear and/or remember a word that she said.

Well, wouldn't that be convenient. So we get to know that Hessia is a worse friend, but neither Superman nor Wonder Woman do so nothing will really be done about the whole reveal. It will have become pointless beyond adding a layer of dramatic irony where we the readers know more than the characters, so that we can be more uncomfortable with Hessia than they are. That said, I don't think Superman didn't hear Hessia or will forget.

[Spair]

Show of hands! Who really thinks Hessia had any chance at all of killing Superman infected with Doomsday? Yeah, that's what I thought. And she tried to kill Diana's boyfriend because she saw the entire world DYING all around him. Kinda high stakes, no?

And you're also assuming that Superman even really remembers what Hessia said to him. He was out of his mind with rage at the time. It's entirely possible he didn't hear and/or remember a word that she said.

Superman himself said to Diana while up in space "Tell Hessia I am sorry, and ...I understand why she did what she did. Everything she did.

What a forgiving man...

Oh, I almost forgot I did not raise my hand to the question you asked. Though she tried hard to save the word from SuperDoom...she was going to die... die and horrible, horrible death had Diana not intervened.

[misslane]

Superman himself said to Diana while up in space "Tell Hessia I am sorry, and ...I understand why she did what she did. Everything she did.

What a forgiving man...

Good, so Superman does remember. I hope, then, that Superman elaborates on what Hessia did when he talks to Diana once things finally settle down. I also am fine with both Superman and Wonder Woman being forgiving, because I like that they're magnanimous. My issue isn't with them anyway. My issue is with Hessia. I need to see Hessia actually show remorse to like her again.

ETA: If this discussion is getting the thread off track, perhaps a separate thread to discuss Hessia could be created? Is there one already?

[brettc1]

Diana may be forgiving but she is also not a doormat. And she has been shown to get quite passionate when someone she cares for is attacked.

Sometimes I see situations where she would say an apology was not necessary, but I do nth think that's a blanket approach. Nor should it be, to declare that nobody ever has to apologize to you no matter what they do or try is to say you have no personal worth.

As far as trying to kill Superdoon goes, if you point a gun at somebody and pull the trigger to kill them, you are still committing a crime. The fact the gum had no bullets makes no difference if you thought it was loaded.
.

[Dr. Hurt]

oops, wrong thread!

[Blacksun]

I think it's the wrong thread

[misslane]

Diana may be forgiving but she is also not a doormat. And she has been shown to get quite passionate when someone she cares for is attacked.

True. I think in a case like this, if Hessia were to show genuine remorse, then the forgiveness could serve more as an opening to Hessia to prove herself with a second chance; she can earn some of the trust back that has been lost. However, I'm concerned that Soule may not pursue that course given Hessia seems unrepentant, and he not only had Superman not inform Diana right away of Hessia's other betrayal he also had Superman express his wholehearted understanding of Hessia's behavior without a hint of concern or anger. I'll be very angry with Superman and Soule if Diana is never informed of Hessia's decision to tell the world she and Superman were dating. Superman should not be deciding what Wonder Woman does or does not deserve to know about the people she lets into her life.

[brettc1]

True. I think in a case like this, if Hessia were to show genuine remorse, then the forgiveness could serve more as an opening to Hessia to prove herself with a second chance; she can earn some of the trust back that has been lost. However, I'm concerned that Soule may not pursue that course given Hessia seems unrepentant, and he had not only had Superman not inform Diana right away of Hessia's other betrayal he also even expressed his wholehearted understanding of Hessia's behavior without a hint of concern or anger. I'll be very angry with Superman and Soule if Diana is never informed of Hessia's decision to tell the world she and Superman were dating. Superman should not be deciding what Wonder Woman does or does not deserve to know about the people she lets into her life.

True. It would be terrible if Clark actually thanked Hessia for pushing their relationship out into the mass media.

There is being forgiving and then there is just needing to grow a spine.

[Razor Tiara]

True. It would be terrible if Clark actually thanked Hessia for pushing their relationship out into the mass media.

There is being forgiving and then there is just needing to grow a spine.

I don't think that's spineless, I think that's embracing your relationship. I'm sure there must be a sense of relief that he doesn't have to hide anymore and I could easily see how he'd be thankful for their new found freedom.

[md62]

Love both the writing & art. Not crazy about the Doomed crossover. I love the SM/WW relationship instead of SM/Lois. In my mind because of SM's longer lifespan I always thought he would get together with Diana after Lois died. Obviously Mark Waid felt the same way in Kingdom Come....

[brettc1]

I don't think that's spineless, I think that's embracing your relationship. I'm sure there must be a sense of relief that he doesn't have to hide anymore and I could easily see how he'd be thankful for their new found freedom.

No way I can get onboard with this.

"Okay, you made a decision but it is clearly a stupid one. I am going to make the decision for you, and do it the right way simply because you are too dumb to understand what the best thing is."

"Thank you."

Sorry, that is just treating people with an arrogance that even Frank Miller's Batman would cringe at. What sort of person lets somebody do that, invade a personal relationship, and just shanghai it simply because they don't agree with one of the people who are actually IN the relationship.

In fact, if Batman had stepped in and overruled Diana's feelings about something and forced her into a course of action she was not comfortable with I am sure there would be cries of outrage. People would DEMAND she confront him about it and tell him in no uncertain terms to back the hell off. And she would be right to do so.

Hessia's actions are not only an insult to Superman but to Diana herself. "Oh sweety, I know you want to be an adult but clearly you just dont know how to handle this. Never mind, I'll fix it for you. Let me know if there are any other tricky problems with your man and I'll deal with them 'til you get a bit more experience."

[Razor Tiara]

No way I can get onboard with this.

"Okay, you made a decision but it is clearly a stupid one. I am going to make the decision for you, and do it the right way simply because you are too dumb to understand what the best thing is."

"Thank you."

Sorry, that is just treating people with an arrogance that even Frank Miller's Batman would cringe at. What sort of person lets somebody do that, invade a personal relationship, and just shanghai it simply because they don't agree with one of the people who are actually IN the relationship.

In fact, if Batman had stepped in and overruled Diana's feelings about something and forced her into a course of action she was not comfortable with I am sure there would be cries of outrage. People would DEMAND she confront him about it and tell him in no uncertain terms to back the hell off. And she would be right to do so.

Hessia's actions are not only an insult to Superman but to Diana herself. "Oh sweety, I know you want to be an adult but clearly you just dont know how to handle this. Never mind, I'll fix it for you. Let me know if there are any other tricky problems with your man and I'll deal with them 'til you get a bit more experience."

I think Superman would disagree, this is him and Diana flying while holding hands *after* Hessia outed their relationship.



They look very happy together.

[misslane]

Love both the writing & art. Not crazy about the Doomed crossover. I love the SM/WW relationship instead of SM/Lois. In my mind because of SM's longer lifespan I always thought he would get together with Diana after Lois died. Obviously Mark Waid felt the same way in Kingdom Come....

Elliot S! Maggin, who wrote the novelization of Kingdom Come, alluded to how integral Superman’s past love was to his current love in his unpublished Chapter 14:

"These are people who come together only after doing a lot of living. Only after being vulnerable and disappointed a lot. After loving and being loved a lot. Both of them. A woman this formidable needs a man who’s weathered, sanded down around the edges—or she needs to be with no one at all. And a man this weathered needs someone capable of making him forget the ghosts of his own sad stories—or he needs to be with no one at all."

I think the key here is that Superman falls in love with Wonder Woman after he loses Lois. The New 52 hasn't told that story. Instead, it has told the story of two people who came together because they were afraid of being touched by life. Even Mark Waid has spoken out about he felt he didn't get the SM/WW relationship right. He regrets how he wrote Wonder Woman.

[kidstandout]

i feel like contrary to the divide amongst the internet, most people in the real world are very open to the concept based on my experiences.

there's a wendy's up the block from my house that i passed by the other day and i decided to get my nephew the one of the value deals. imagine my expression when there is a big smww promotion on the door. so i go inside and see like 3 or 4 kids reading the comic. i decided to ask them about it to see if they liked it and the overall response was yes

there was another time i was at hot topic and i saw this girl with a smww tshirt on as she walked out. i asked the clerk if they had anymore and it was all sold out. i asked him when was the next shipment and he told me "your better off ordering through the site, this stuff has been selling like hotcakes from what i hear".

now my experiences alone aren't enough to comment on the overall sentiments on the issue but based on how much merch has been produced and sold all because of a plot point in a comic, it's clear that this pairing has a sizable market.

[misslane]

there's a wendy's up the block from my house that i passed by the other day and i decided to get my nephew the one of the value deals. imagine my expression when there is a big smww promotion on the door. so i go inside and see like 3 or 4 kids reading the comic. i decided to ask them about it to see if they liked it and the overall response was yes

I liked it, too. It was a cute team up book featuring Superman and Wonder Woman as friends. I don't think the kids who told you they liked the comic were responding to its nonexistent romantic subplot.

there was another time i was at hot topic and i saw this girl with a smww tshirt on as she walked out. i asked the clerk if they had anymore and it was all sold out. i asked him when was the next shipment and he told me "your better off ordering through the site, this stuff has been selling like hotcakes from what i hear".

I guess it depends on where you shop. The Hot-Topic at the mall close to me always seems to have a surplus of those shirts left unsold.