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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Historically, these types of salutes are derived from the military (the Roman salute) or from how how people treated the king and his delegates. Salutes are commonly used by armies because they are a ranked, authoritarian structures. In our modern culture, these sorts of salutes exist solely in the military, in the historical memory of authoritarian regimes or pop culture replicas of these regimes (the Empire from Star Wars) When I first saw Black Lives Matters activists doing that stupid Wakanda salute I genuinely got Fascist vibes off them because it clearly looks like a military salute.

    There are salutes that aren't authoritarian or patriarchal (like greetings, or the raised fist) but when used in crowds they aren't used with the same uniformity. During Labour Day protests you aren't going to see mobs of people with a raised fist marching with the same organization as you would see during Bastille Day.
    Which real life regime has used the crossed bracelets gesture? It's a huge leap of logic to call fascism for using what is essentially a harmless gesture that was shown in a movie.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    Context does matter. Those women you posted are performing mudras, which each have various meanings in the religions and cultures that spawned from South Asia. You aren't pledging fealty to a king or government when you perform a mudra and as far as I know mudras were never used in that context. Mudras are primarily a form of religious expression and sometimes westerners unknowingly perform them when doing yoga.

    My problem is with military salutes. It is true that the Amazons are warriors, but warriors don't salute each other. Soldiers do, however, salute (Yes, I am implying there is a difference between warriors and soldiers). Saluting requires a type of military organization that did not exist in most historical societies, an organization that performs dills and strictly enforces hierarchies with discipline, where as warrior bands would be looser. Hierarchy still exists (there is a war band leader after all, a chief), but its not as formalized and leaders don't exert the same type of control as they could in modern armies.

    I would say the Amazons should be depicted more like a militia, with lax hierarchies and as a result, no saluting.
    Has it ever occurred to you that neither WW or BP is performing the pose as a military salute? In Diana's case she isn't even saluting anyone when she does it, it's just a pose she strikes to look dynamic.

  3. #18
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Which real life regime has used the crossed bracelets gesture? It's a huge leap of logic to call fascism for using what is essentially a harmless gesture that was shown in a movie.
    None that I'm aware of but its still an obvious stand in for a military salute. If I was inclined to view these BLM protests negatively and I see some of these activists perform this salute, I'm might think their a para-military organization. It is more of a matter of optics.

    Fiction uses shorthand, abjuring real life people/events/ideas with imagined identities. So for example, the Empire in Star Wars is clearly a stand in for Germany, c. 1933-1945. The issue is that a lot of Star Wars fans seem to like the Empire more than the Rebels, so are they, by proxy, fans of fascism? People clearly like militarism, they like the idea of military parades and uniforms and maybe if it ended at that then it would just be good fun, but its hard to larp as fascist for years and not become one and the Star Wars community clearly has a sizable portion of Alt-Rightist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Has it ever occurred to you that neither WW or BP is performing the pose as a military salute? In Diana's case she isn't even saluting anyone when she does it, it's just a pose she strikes to look dynamic.
    Keep in mind, the brunt of my criticism was that the motion looks silly and is unpractical as a battle position. There was only like one image posted in this thread where the gesture is being used in a military-like context.

    I would also add though that even as motion used for prayer I have problems with it. The Amazons are traditionally depicted in modern times as a surviving remnant of ancient Hellenic civilization, yet she is praying like a Christian. The ancient Greeks primarily burned animal bones to honour the gods (among other things). I doubt Perez was even aware he was doing this, but he does use Christian short hand for he depicts Wonder Woman praying.

    TL;DR: I don't like the crossed bracelet pose for a myriad of reasons.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Undertaker View Post
    I'm trying to find some comic book examples and the oldest I can get is a José Luiz Garcia Lopez piece from around 1983 (or later).



    I checked all the comic covers from before the Crisis and none of them have this pose. I also don't remember of ever having seeing one instance in the books.

    It never crossed my mind before... but has it originated from the TV show?

    In the show, it's not a proper greeting or something, just a preparation to deflect the bullets, but she does it 5 or 6 times during the show, and other Amazons do it too. It's also featured in some promotional material.



    So, does it actually comes from the show and was "officialized" in the comics when Pérez turned it into an Amazon greeting, perhaps inspired by the series or the popularity of the pose that came from it?

    Can someone confirm or deny this?
    The show added a lot to the mythology and the stance is among those. Personally I feel like it is a smart idea to further draw from the show by examining Lynda Carter's many interviews when it comes to WWs personality and the way she relates to other women. I wouldn't mind an Elseworlds or verse built on some of the other things she had to say as well. That would have been much more preferable to Morrison's E1 shenanigans

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    None that I'm aware of but its still an obvious stand in for a military salute. If I was inclined to view these BLM protests negatively and I see some of these activists perform this salute, I'm might think their a para-military organization. It is more of a matter of optics.

    Fiction uses shorthand, abjuring real life people/events/ideas with imagined identities. So for example, the Empire in Star Wars is clearly a stand in for Germany, c. 1933-1945. The issue is that a lot of Star Wars fans seem to like the Empire more than the Rebels, so are they, by proxy, fans of fascism? People clearly like militarism, they like the idea of military parades and uniforms and maybe if it ended at that then it would just be good fun, but its hard to larp as fascist for years and not become one and the Star Wars community clearly has a sizable portion of Alt-Rightist.



    Keep in mind, the brunt of my criticism was that the motion looks silly and is unpractical as a battle position. There was only like one image posted in this thread where the gesture is being used in a military-like context.

    I would also add though that even as motion used for prayer I have problems with it. The Amazons are traditionally depicted in modern times as a surviving remnant of ancient Hellenic civilization, yet she is praying like a Christian. The ancient Greeks primarily burned animal bones to honour the gods (among other things). I doubt Perez was even aware he was doing this, but he does use Christian short hand for he depicts Wonder Woman praying.

    TL;DR: I don't like the crossed bracelet pose for a myriad of reasons.
    So you've never seen a real life military regime use it but it's "obviously" a military gesture and real life civilian personnel using it makes them fascist? Calling it silly is one thing, calling it fascist is a stretch worthy of Mr Fantastic.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-17-2019 at 09:09 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    It really only works when Lynda Carter does it and that is because of the medium itself. When you see the character posing with her arms crossed in her entirety, it actually looks silly, but when the camera zooms in on Carter's face it works. As a sort of fighting posture its pretty silly too, as your basically only covering your chest and leaving the rest of your body exposed.

    Yes, but it's just a starting pose. The Amazons then have to be fast enough to move the arm to deflect a bullet if it's not aimed their chest. I don't know if anyone other than Diana and Donna are actually fast enough to do that.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Looking cool and being battle practical have often been at odds with one another. We've had at least five Star Wars movies doing just that.

  8. #23
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    If I remember correctly, the first time we ever see the pose in the TV show is when Diana faces off with the other Amazon for bullets and bracelets. It was, to my recollection, clearly a defensive/starting position for blocking bullets, regardless of practicality.

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