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  1. #31
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Except for the fact that Superman does struggle with his powers. That struggle does not come from getting his powers but how he uses them. He has the powers but he still has to struggle and think about new ways to use them to solve problems as most of Superman's problems are more than just punching it really hard. And that is where the agency of Superman and the tension comes from as every battle is Superman using his powers intelligently to win. Both what you described and what I described are legitimate ways to tell stories, it's just that Superman falls into what I described. And what all those and other characters like the Fantastic Four, Green Lantern, the Flash etc have in common is that is just, on its fundamental level, a way of explaining how Superheroes get their powers and it doesn't have to be more than that as the struggle is not how they get their powers but how they use them.

    That is exactly what he does. Kryptonite equalizes the playing field and Superman has to be smart to neutralise the threat. And that comes with him thinking strategically and using his powers well. Any person who sees Superman as a "naive farmboy" knows nothing about the character and shouldn't be taken seriously.
    yeah!yet!with all that power he doesn't seem to be getting anywhere or doing anything.why?because comics is a static medium.He is not allowed to fix anything or change anything.If superman solves problem and actually fixes things it there would be a start,middle and finish to his story.Thus making superman irrelavant and usless in comics as a medium.Moreover,this makes him look like he is for maintaining a status quo which leads to things like dkr.Thus what you might say could be true.Admittedly, i find it boring and moreover it doesn't fit superman as the working class guy.He is not an allegory for a rich guy or royalty for his " struggle to not come from getting his powers" .Working class people have to think of getting "Money" .Weak people need to think of ways to get strong.Superman was meant to " fight a never ending battle for truth and justice on behalf of common man". It doesn't fit the theme.Aquaman is a king.Bruce is rich.Techincally,these guys should be the ones to about "how they uses powers and not how they acquire it".Yes,am not denying superhero narrative is about "how to use powers".Yet people flock to batman as the paragon of hard work.Which is nonesense.Batman and other guys are seen as "self-made men" .People say "it's not like superman needs to work".when they shouldn't be.Anyways my issue is this, a working class guy should be the struggler in all aspects,yet superman seems way too comfortable.Having a working class guy behaving like an elite is counter productive and doesn't fit thematically.Themes and characterisation matter.

    I say superman works better as a multi and uber talented individual who challenges himself to break the limits of his potential and get more competent. He needs to cause otherwise doomsday will cripple him and break the planet in half with strength.

    well, you just eliminated 99% people. There are many who believe superman shouldn't be intelligent to begin with. Moreover, i find the mind games and strategies a bit lacking. I would love for a chess game between two intellectual giants. But, alas batman is regarded as the smart one. Not clark. Not that bruce does strategy better. He does the basic "i threw a rock at him. It was a green one". So, for me it comes of as superman tripping on some rock, falling head first and getting beat. Tripping on rocks is clark kent's department,not Superman’s.Even then in that case, superman would need to be challenged as a strategist and get better at a more cerebral way. here, the power hierarchy would be based on the mind is all.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-14-2020 at 11:56 AM.

  2. #32
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    yeah!yet!with all that power he doesn't seem to be getting anywhere or doing anything.why?because comics is a static medium.He is not allowed to fix anything or change anything.If superman solves problem and actually fixes things it there would be a start,middle and finish to his story.Thus making superman irrelavant and usless in comics as a medium.Moreover,this makes him look like he is for maintaining a status quo which leads to things like dkr.Thus what you might say could be true.Admittedly, i find it boring and moreover it doesn't fit superman as the working class guy.He is not an allegory for a rich guy or royalty for his " struggle to not come from getting his powers" .Working class people have to think of getting "Money" .Weak people need to think of ways to get strong.Superman was meant to " fight a never ending battle for truth and justice on behalf of common man". It doesn't fit the theme.Aquaman is a king.Bruce is rich.Techincally,these guys should be the ones to about "how they uses powers and not how they acquire it".Yes,am not denying superhero narrative is about "how to use powers".Yet people flock to batman as the paragon of hard work.Which is nonesense.Batman and other guys are seen as "self-made men" .People say "it's not like superman needs to work".when they shouldn't be.Anyways my issue is this, a working class guy should be the struggler in all aspects,yet superman seems way too comfortable.Having a working class guy behaving like an elite is counter productive and doesn't fit thematically.Themes and characterisation matter.

    I say superman works better as a multi and uber talented individual who challenges himself to break the limits of his potential and get more competent. He needs to cause otherwise doomsday will cripple him and break the planet in half with strength.

    well, you just eliminated 99% people. There are many who believe superman shouldn't be intelligent to begin with. Moreover, i find the mind games and strategies a bit lacking. I would love for a chess game between two intellectual giants. But, alas batman is regarded as the smart one. Not clark. Not that bruce does strategy better. He does the basic "i threw a rock at him. It was a green one". So, for me it comes of as superman tripping on some rock, falling head first and getting beat. Tripping on rocks is clark kent's department,not Superman’s.Even then in that case, superman would need to be challenged as a strategist and get better at a more cerebral way. here, the power hierarchy would be based on the mind is all.
    Wheather Superman uses his powers to change something bigger isn't the argument at hand. Superman uses his powers to fight villains and most of these villains can only be fought by Superman using a clever combination of his powers. The sun doesn't solve these problems, Superman does by thinking and using his powers in ways that can fight villains.

    I don't think Superman as a metaphor for the working class is something writers have in mind when writing Superman and it isn't on the mind of most readers when reading Superman. You have taken a potential theme of Superman that you like and said: "Superman should always be this" when most writers and reading don't care about Superman being an allegory for the working class. The fact is Superman can and does still fight for Truth and Justice on behalf of the people and he doesn't need to work for his powers in some way for that to be true. Superman has many good themes and Superman struggling in how he uses his powers instead of how he gained them is executed well enough as it is that it really isn't a big deal and doesn't disrupt and of the other themes Superman has. Superman doesn't need to struggle in all aspects, as long as he struggles in some way and he does.

    I don't think it is 99% of people, there are also many people who know Superman can be smart. The strategy doesn't have to be some kind of chess game as long as Superman is using his powers in smart and unique ways to fight his villains. Except that it isn't just Superman "Tripping on rocks" in a lot of cases when going up against Kryptonite, Superman has used his power and environment strategically to neutralize the threat of the Kryptonite. Seeing Batman as the smart one and Superman as a moron is a very narrow view of both characters.
    Last edited by KC; 11-14-2020 at 02:30 PM.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Seeing Batman as the smart one and Superman as a moron is a very narrow view of both characters.
    It may be narrow, but it's prominent enough it's been lampshaded. And it never should have gotten to that point.

  4. #34
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    Wheather Superman uses his powers to change something bigger isn't the argument at hand. Superman uses his powers to fight villains and most of these villains can only be fought by Superman using a clever combination of his powers. The sun doesn't solve these problems, Superman does by thinking and using his powers in ways that can fight villains.

    I don't think Superman as a metaphor for the working class is something writers have in mind when writing Superman and it isn't on the mind of most readers when reading Superman. You have taken a potential theme of Superman that you like and said: "Superman should always be this" when most writers and reading don't care about Superman being an allegory for the working class. The fact is Superman can and does still fight for Truth and Justice on behalf of the people and he doesn't need to work for his powers in some way for that to be true. Superman has many good themes and Superman struggling in how he uses his powers instead of how he gained them is executed well enough as it is that it really isn't a big deal and doesn't disrupt and of the other themes Superman has. Superman doesn't need to struggle in all aspects, as long as he struggles in some way and he does.

    I don't think it is 99% of people, there are also many people who know Superman can be smart. The strategy doesn't have to be some kind of chess game as long as Superman is using his powers in smart and unique ways to fight his villains. Except that it isn't just Superman "Tripping on rocks" in a lot of cases when going up against Kryptonite, Superman has used his power and environment strategically to neutralize the threat of the Kryptonite. Seeing Batman as the smart one and Superman as a moron is a very narrow view of both characters.
    yet,sun dipping is one of the most constantly used plot device.Every hero fights villain.i don't think that creates much stories

    Admittedly,there are many versions of the character.But,i prefer the original.Ofcourse,i want/prefer atype of superman story.He was a working class guy.Nothing about superman was special,except for his in born talent,the great strength he had as a child.Sun explanation is said to be scientific.Yet,it doesn't explain How clark is even able to absorb light with his bodystructure.I do like the some of the stories of later as my profile name suggests like bronze age sun god.Furthermore Even if we use the silverage/bronzeage superman version The guy who was limitless enough to only worry about "how to use power".It can't work.why?superman can't be the fastest,smartest,strongest...etc anymore in shared universe which is fair.But, people need to feel that he is this uber powerful/competent individual.yet,he goes for helping people.When he is constantly shown losing,struggling that way and stuff.The impact get's removed.Moreover,superman is archetype.His powers are standard run in the mill.All that we are left with "just a average guy with power helping people".which isn't special.Moreover,that doesn't feel anything like a "superman" as there are hundreds of them.Even "non-truama" background characters are there.So,there isn't much of draw other than nostalgia and childhood memories?

    All that's fine.But,if people don't find it strategies particularly smart.I would say it would useless.Superman would always be seen as the brute.So far superman doesn't have naruto level of strategy.That's a low bar.I haven't had that " check mate" with clark and lex ever.His powers being used uniquely,superman is an archetype "the flying paragon".The way he uses he abilities and the way it's presented is the most blandest.Even the way he flies normally is pretty bland.He just uses a pose.Ofcourse ,there are good writers like snyder who tries to present his powers better.But still generally,there is nothing unique about superman usage of abilities.Look at wally west,The character is constantly written to come up with moves for example the infinite mass punch.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-14-2020 at 10:16 PM.

  5. #35
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    yet,sun dipping is one of the most constantly used plot device.Every hero fights villain.i don't think that creates much stories

    Admittedly,there are many versions of the character.But,i prefer the original.Ofcourse,i want/prefer atype of superman story.He was a working class guy.Nothing about superman was special,except for his in born talent,the great strength he had as a child.Sun explanation is said to be scientific.Yet,it doesn't explain How clark is even able to absorb light with his bodystructure.I do like the some of the stories of later as my profile name suggests like bronze age sun god.Furthermore Even if we use the silverage/bronzeage superman version The guy who was limitless enough to only worry about "how to use power".It can't work.why?superman can't be the fastest,smartest,strongest...etc anymore in shared universe which is fair.But, people need to feel that he is this uber powerful/competent individual.yet,he goes for helping people.When he is constantly shown losing,struggling that way and stuff.The impact get's removed.Moreover,superman is archetype.His powers are standard run in the mill.All that we are left with "just a average guy with power helping people".which isn't special.Moreover,that doesn't feel anything like a "superman" as there are hundreds of them.Even his "truama" background characters are there.So,there isn't much of draw other than nostalgia and childhood memories?

    All that's fine.But,if people don't find it strategies particularly smart.I would say it would useless.Superman would always be seen as the brute.So far superman doesn't have naruto level of strategy.That's a low bar.I haven't had that " check mate" with clark and lex ever.His powers being used uniquely,superman is an archetype "the flying paragon".The way he uses he abilities and the way it's presented is the most blandest.Even the way he flies normally is pretty bland.He just uses a pose.Ofcourse ,there are good writers like snyder who tries to present his powers better.But still generally,there is nothing unique about superman usage of abilities.Look at wally west,The character is constantly written to come up with moves for example the infinite mass punch.
    It doesn't create stories because it doesn't need too, it is an explanation for his powers. The stories come from other places and that's ok.

    Superman being the guy who's struggles come from how he uses his powers does work. The tension that comes from that doesn't undermine him and hasn't for the 50+ years he has been like that since at least the Silver Age. Superman is still an ultra-powerful and competent hero, him struggling and using his powers to overcome that doesn't change that and in fact, shows how strong and competent he is by winning his fights in a way that shows he is a strong and resourceful hero.

    It isn't chess level but how Superman uses his powers is smart and is far from being bland. He uses his powers like his heat vision, ice breath in interesting ways to solve problems and win fights and he is way more than just a "flying brute".

  6. #36
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    I think Superman absolutely can be everything his original design called for. Supes, Captain Marvel, and the Wonder Woman together have the most comprehensive and innovative designs and they got to their concepts first. So yeah he is going to be at the top in most things with few peers and literally one or two max rivals.

    It p!sses me off that they eliminate his superintelligence but make a big deal of Luthor and Batman. It annoys me even more that they continually trump up Flash's speed and act like Supes (and Wondy and Cap) are not even in the same class.

    No
    Last edited by Stanlos; 11-15-2020 at 06:03 PM.

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