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  1. #16
    Fantastic Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    He has a unique and intriguing perspective because of his senses and experiences
    He is the champion of the oppressed both as Superman and Clark
    He is a man of Action!
    He is super intelligent
    He is awe inspiring
    He doesn't quit
    He categorically rejects the notion of the impossible
    He should remember Krypton (even though it'd be a baby's memories) and feel the loss of his homeworld. He should be fascinated by and reverent of his lost culture to the point that he sees Kryptonian relics as sacred and have a strong desire to preserve them and prevent similar tragedies from happening to other worlds.
    Last edited by magha_regulus; 11-13-2020 at 04:52 PM.

  2. #17
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    In what world is Superman ever portrayed as weak?

  3. #18
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    In what world is Superman ever portrayed as weak?
    This way.

  4. #19
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    And this
    He is beaten up easily and gets surprised as fast as well.
    Heck!he needs the sun to solve his problems and he gets taken out by a rock. Killer Croc can beat Superman. It doesn't take world's greatest detective. Superman returns basically had a bunch of guys beating him up
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-13-2020 at 10:22 PM.

  5. #20
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    It's disingenuous to say Superman needs the sun to "solve his problems". It's the source of his powers. the same way the source of the Hulk's powers is Gamma Radiation.

    Kryptonite is a fine weakness for Superman as long as it is done well but that clip is an example of how it can be used poorly.

  6. #21
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    It's disingenuous to say Superman needs the sun to "solve his problems". It's the source of his powers. the same way the source of the Hulk's powers is Gamma Radiation.

    Kryptonite is a fine weakness for Superman as long as it is done well but that clip is an example of how it can be used poorly.
    Hulk generates his physical power. He basically suffers emotionally,mentally and physically. The transformaction itself is no walk in the park.It's a curse.Clark?he sunbathes to beat up people.I am sure Hugo danner and John Carter will be proud.

    Well,that's how it's mostly used.k-metal being that bland is preposterous. What's worse is clark's reaction to being thrown and to the rock.There is no determination or resolve to fight the weakness and Bruce's bullshit.If that was goldenage superman,batman would be decked across the room.Finally,he comes of naive at best with his "I won't allow vigilantism in my town"at worst he is a hypocrite.Also,batman stole his gal and could have beaten him from the start with the rock.he wanted to make a statement with the throw.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-13-2020 at 11:05 PM.

  7. #22
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Hulk generates his physical power. He basically suffers emotionally,mentally and physically. The transformaction itself is no walk in the park.It's a curse.Clark?he sunbathes to beat up people.I am sure Hugo danner and John Carter will be proud.

    Well,that's how it's mostly used.k-metal being that bland is preposterous. What's worse is clark's reaction to being thrown and to the rock.There is no determination or resolve to fight the weakness and Bruce's bullshit.If that was goldenage superman,batman would be decked across the room.Finally,he comes of naive at best with his "I won't allow vigilantism in my town"at worst he is a hypocrite.Also,batman stole his gal and could have beaten him from the start with the rock.he wanted to make a statement with the throw.
    That was just an example from the top of my head to show that most Superheroes get their powers in some way and it is just a means to an end to justify how they are "Super". It doesn't solve their problems for them it is just a way of explaining how they got their powers.

    Kryptonite has mostly been used as an equalizer so villains like Luthor aren't immediately trampled when they fight Superman. It isn't inherently good or bad it is just how it is used.
    Last edited by KC; 11-13-2020 at 11:28 PM.

  8. #23
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    That was just an example from the top of my head to show that most Superheroes get their powers in some way and it is just a means to an end to justify how they are "Super". It doesn't solve their problems for them it is just a way of explaining how they got their powers.

    Kryptonite has mostly been used as an equalizer so villains like Luthor aren't immediately trampled when they fight Superman. It isn't inherently good or bad it is just how it is used.
    Powersource thing is not needed for heroes like spiderman.hulk doesn't need to drink Gamma steroids.Cap doesn't need to constantly drink supersoldier formula.heck!superman makes Popeye look bad.Atleast,he needs to eat spinach to get strong. At least,have him take a pushup or something to show that he works out.

    Luthor used to beat Superman without needing a rock.Heck!he trampled superman with it in power stone saga.It is no equaliser .
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-13-2020 at 11:58 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    This way.
    I am confused. What does this scene have to do with his powers?

  10. #25
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    I am confused. What does this scene have to do with his powers?
    A guy who gets constantly gets talked down and shown to be navel gazing is weak.Powerlevel means jack when you are written to be a wimp
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-13-2020 at 11:57 PM.

  11. #26
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Powersource thing is not needed for heroes like spiderman.hulk doesn't need to drink Gamma steroids.Cap doesn't need to constantly drink supersoldier formula.heck!superman makes Popeye look bad.Atleast,he needs to eat spinach to get strong. At least,have him take a pushup or something to show that he works out.

    Luthor used to beat Superman without needing a rock.Heck!he trampled superman with it in power stone saga.It is no equaliser .
    All those characters still have an explanation for how they got their powers. Because that is all the sun is, a reason for why Superman has powers. You still haven't explained how it "solves his problems" because a lot of Superman stories are more than just " Superman sunbathes and then punches something really hard". He has quite a few powers and he uses all of them to solve his problems and save the day and that requires him to think and struggle.

    Luthor has used Kryptonite a lot to beat Superman. Because it is an easy way to make the super-powerful Superman have to work in a fight instead of him just punching every problem that he faces.
    Last edited by KC; 11-14-2020 at 12:36 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    A guy who gets constantly gets talked down and shown to be navel gazing is weak.Powerlevel means jack when you are written to be a wimp
    Ok, this is not a constant thing going on in the DCAU and just because Superman is wrong is not the same as being weak. Superman being perfect and invincible makes him unrelatable and boring. It's good how Superman is wrong every so often in the DCAU, not everything need to be solved by power level - a big reason Superman's looked down is because he's seen as a brainless jock when that's not the case. He's smart. A Superman who examined his ideas and learns from his mistakes is strong, not a wimp.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 11-14-2020 at 12:26 AM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    A guy who gets constantly gets talked down and shown to be navel gazing is weak.Powerlevel means jack when you are written to be a wimp
    You conveniently ignored the part of the episode where he tells Bruce, "You're not always right".

  14. #29
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC View Post
    All those characters still have an explanation for how they got their powers. Because that is all the sun is, a reason for why Superman has powers. You still haven't explained how it "solves his problems" because a lot of Superman stories are more than just " Superman sunbathes and then punches something really hard". He has quite a few powers and he uses all of them to solve his problems and save the day and that requires him to think and struggle.

    Luthor has used Kryptonite a lot to beat Superman. Because it is an easy way to make the super-powerful Superman have to work in a fight instead of him just punching every problem that he faces.
    it's a crutch and plot device,that's my problem.It removes agency from protagonist and tension from a story.My problem is ,superman needs the sun to punch harder itself.Especially, in a story with punching.He doesn't punch harder cause he had genetic potential and he put effort to manifest that potential.My problem is superman needs just the sun constantly for all those other powers you mentioned to even work.it is an external source.while,hulk generates the gamma to punch harder himself.If he doesn't go through the turmoil(the struggle and tension for power won or earned in a story withstanding adversity) he would not create the chain reaction needed.Simply put,spiderman needs to make webfluid himself.There is an effort and struggle from the characters that people find relatable.In superman's case,there exists none.He does'nt struggle that way.The normal superman wisdom is "you want a stronger superman?put him under the sun".While,hulk,cap,spidey,bruce...etc go through something to get something.Thor needs to prove he is a noble warrior inorder to have the power of thor.Superman is superman cause the powersource and just that.

    how is getting beaten by a rock making him use other faculties other than fists ,exactly?There is zero strategy involved in ninety percent of the time.Atleast diana gets shot or stabbed as weakness.Clark's big weakness is a rock that doesn't even cause any permanent damage for building tension.He gets weakened momentarily for anyone to walk over him and he gets back up a-ok the next scene.As if lex and clark engage in any mind games of the caliber of world's smartest men .they don't.i have never seen clark actually neutralising lex or his hold on the kryptonite weakness with just strategy .ever.heck!usually,people don't even know clark is intelligent in any fashion.Just a naive farmboy.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-14-2020 at 05:07 AM.

  15. #30
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    it's a crutch and plot device,that's my problem.It removes agency from protagonist and tension from a story.My problem is ,superman needs the sun to punch harder itself.Especially, in a story with punching.He doesn't punch harder cause he had genetic potential and he put effort to manifest that potential.My problem is superman needs just the sun constantly for all those other powers you mentioned to even work.it is an external source.while,hulk generates the gamma to punch harder himself.If he doesn't go through the turmoil(the struggle and tension for power won or earned in a story withstanding adversity) he would not create the chain reaction needed.Simply put,spiderman needs to make webfluid himself.There is an effort and struggle from the characters that people find relatable.In superman's case,there exists none.He does'nt struggle that way.The normal superman wisdom is "you want a stronger superman?put him under the sun".While,hulk,cap,spidey,bruce...etc go through something to get something.Thor needs to prove he is a noble warrior inorder to have the power of thor.Superman is superman cause the powersource and just that.

    how is getting beaten by a rock making him use other faculties other than fists ,exactly?There is zero strategy involved in ninety percent of the time.Atleast diana gets shot or stabbed as weakness.Clark's big weakness is a rock that doesn't even cause any permanent damage for building tension.He gets weakened momentarily for anyone to walk over him and he gets back up a-ok the next scene.As if lex and clark engage in any mind games of the caliber of world's smartest men .they don't.i have never seen clark actually neutralising lex or his hold on the kryptonite weakness with just strategy .ever.heck!usually,people don't even know clark is intelligent in any fashion.Just a naive farmboy.
    Except for the fact that Superman does struggle with his powers. That struggle does not come from getting his powers but how he uses them. He has the powers but he still has to struggle and think about new ways to use them to solve problems as most of Superman's problems are more than just punching it really hard. And that is where the agency of Superman and the tension comes from as every battle is Superman using his powers intelligently to win. Both what you described and what I described are legitimate ways to tell stories, it's just that Superman falls into what I described. And what all those and other characters like the Fantastic Four, Green Lantern, the Flash etc have in common is that is just, on its fundamental level, a way of explaining how Superheroes get their powers and it doesn't have to be more than that as the struggle is not how they get their powers but how they use them.

    That is exactly what he does. Kryptonite equalizes the playing field and Superman has to be smart to neutralise the threat. And that comes with him thinking strategically and using his powers well. Any person who sees Superman as a "naive farmboy" knows nothing about the character and shouldn't be taken seriously.
    Last edited by KC; 11-14-2020 at 10:49 AM.

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