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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    They really brought back the wrong old version of Superman though if their aim was to re-establish a classic (which in of itself puts on full display DC's lack of creativity and effort with the character. Instead of creating something with the guy they set out to make in 2011, they just want to insert something that has already fleshed out by others and ride that tired wave). Instead of picking one of the two actual classic versions they just picked the most recent of the old incarnations.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-28-2016 at 08:23 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  2. #47
    Incredible Member victorsage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    They really brought back the wrong old version of Superman though if they wanted to re-establish a classic. Instead of picking one of the two actual classic versions they just picked the most recent of the old incarnations.
    Post Crisis Superman has been the blueprint for the versions of Superman that's been in pop culture for the last 30 years. Whether the audience at large knows the character from Superman The Animated Series, Lois and Clark, Smallville, Superman Returns, Justice League, Young Justice, the multiple one off animated films, even MOS. All those characters have connections to Post Crisis Superman, and his style of story telling.

  3. #48
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    From DC's perspective, it probably makes alot more sense to bring back a classic Superman that sustained itself, thru ups and downs, for what? 24-25 years than to really go back and pluck Pre-Crisis Superman from where ever he is. Plus, there may be the idea that all those Post-Crisis/Pre-Nu52 trades may be more appealing towards readers since, you know, that stuff was experienced by the Rebirth Superman. In addition to legacy, apparently, being a factor as well. Which was really brought forth with the 2 parter Convergence: Superman story where Lois gave birth to Damian Wayne's soon-to-be new BFF, Jonathan Samuel Kent.

    But you're not going to please everybody. On par for the course with DC.

  4. #49
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorsage View Post
    Post Crisis Superman has been the blueprint for the versions of Superman that's been in pop culture for the last 30 years. Whether the audience at large knows the character from Superman The Animated Series, Lois and Clark, Smallville, Superman Returns, Justice League, Young Justice, the multiple one off animated films, even MOS. All those characters have connections to Post Crisis Superman, and his style of story telling.
    Yet that character ultimately failed, and failed again when brought back for a second time (to which he was rewarded with a promotion for, apparently) so something's not right with that version. Its been the most recognizable since 86, but the character's been going downhill ever since, never capturing the popularity it had in its heyday of the mid 20th century. When it comes to classic I go with the definition of highest quality, and the highest quality and most successful has always been the Golden and Silver Age. Easily. Post-Crisis has been a blueprint for the past 30 years, but its an inferior blueprint. They figured that out in 2011, seemingly mercifully, in 2011 but apparently have gotten cold feet.

    But this is getting off topic, I'm glad to agree to disagree on this one. The question is what's to become of this Earth's Superman, and I still hope he returns, though I wouldn't expect it till the new year if so. I hope Supergirl can hold the fort down till then.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-28-2016 at 08:53 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  5. #50
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    You could also say that the New52Superman incarnation is floundering as well. Which explains DC's lack of faith in that version. However, New52Superman along with Post-Crisis Superman's popularity, or lack there of, in my estimation, is more of a changing of the times, along with some of it being editorial decisions as well. We have to remember that Pre-Crisis Superman's sales weren't considered fantastic prior to COIE either. Which is why DC was adamant Byrne initiate the 1986 reboot.

  6. #51
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Oh I would definitely say that too. They blew it with him as well. The only reason pre-Flashpoint got so bad is because they let it get so bad. The Pre-52 Superman has no will of his own of course, he didn't turn into crap out of any self-awareness, haha. But as far as the New 52 version and the crap that was delivered as of late with him, the difference for me is that his slate is still far cleaner imo, and I still see far more potential with him. Stuff like the marriage I see as baggage for that version of Superman, not an endearing quality. But in the end I guess that's where disconnects in opinion are going to form.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-28-2016 at 09:09 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  7. #52
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    I truly think that DC believes the sense of family that is evoked in the Bat titles, may be a winning formula with the Super titles as well, and to which is why, to some extent, Pre-Flashpoint Superman is being brought in as Rebirth Superman. Creatively, DC has been in a rut with in-continuity Superman for well over a decade now. With only brief moments of excellence (Morrison/Elseworlds-type stories).

  8. #53
    Incredible Member victorsage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Yet that character ultimately failed, and failed again when brought back for a second time (to which he was rewarded with a promotion for, apparently) so something's not right with that version. Its been the most recognizable since 86, but the character's been going downhill ever since, never capturing the popularity it had in its heyday of the mid 20th century. When it comes to classic I go with the definition of highest quality, and the highest quality and most successful has always been the Golden and Silver Age. Easily. Post-Crisis has been a blueprint for the past 30 years, but its an inferior blueprint. They figured that out in 2011, seemingly mercifully, in 2011 but apparently have gotten cold feet.
    Failed? The character has more series, and reached huge audiences from the multiple series created off of his template. The Silver Age Superman is a joke, written largely for children of the 60s and 70s that "Great Rao" nonsense is gone, thank God. Those kinds of stories could now only ever work for young children, not for a wider audience. The Golden Age Superman and Post Crisis aren't that different. Neither is the Bronze Age the different, which attempted to make the Silver Age less child like.

    The Post Crisis Superman was much more interesting, and a return to norm compared to the new 52.

    But this is getting off topic, I'm glad to agree to disagree on this one. The question is what's to become of this Earth's Superman, and I still hope he returns, though I wouldn't expect it till the new year if so. I hope Supergirl can hold the fort down till then.
    I'll never agree with the idea you are pushing. I'll take the Golden over the Silver, and Post Crisis over 52, every day of the week. I'll also always take Lois and Clark over SM and WW. We will always have to agree to disagree on that.

    I don't want to sound like a complete ass. I can understand how the people who like the 52 Superman feel, I felt the same way when the New 52 happened. So don't take this as a "burn in hell" or whatever style of declaration, I'm simply defending what I like. The same way everyone else is.
    Last edited by victorsage; 03-28-2016 at 10:16 PM. Reason: Added final paragraph for politeness.

  9. #54
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    The thing about Pre-Crisis Superman, is that I think most people still think of that Superman over others due to all the continuity the Pre-Crisis Superman had. Whether they realize it or not. Superboy. Supergirl. Krypto. Different colored/powered Kryptonite, Kandor. Phantom Zone. Ect. It's all stuff that continuously gets brought back into different continuities time and time again due to how much of that stuff is recognizable to Superman readers. I think another thing about the Pre-Crisis Superman is the Chris Reeve films. Which I always felt was more akin to the Pre-Crisis/Earth-1 universe, than the Golden Age/Earth-Two incarnation. Which, to me, makes sense since the Reeve movies were made almost without exception filmed during the Pre-Crisis/Earth-1 reign.

    The Post-Crisis version of Superman certainly has enjoyed great exposure over the years as well, and though I can't honestly say I was ever engrossed as a reader with the Pre-Crisis style of storytelling when it comes to Superman as I was with the Post-Crisis version, I do think that characters and elements introduced during the Silver Age/Pre-Crisis Universe will always loom large over any of the subsequent Supermen DC decides to go with to be perfectly honest.

  10. #55
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Of course he failed. If he hadn't failed he wouldn't have been rebooted. If he hadn't have failed the whole new 52 probably wouldn't have happened as it was born as a whole from the distinct need to fix what at that point in time was an irrevocably broken Superman. Likewise, to be fair, at a point in time the Bronze Age Superman ended up failing, hence the need to reboot him at that time. But yes, pre-Flashpoint Superman as of August 2011 was dead as dead could be. A complete unsalvageable mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by victorsage View Post



    I'll never agree with the idea you are pushing. .
    You don't have to. That's not what agreeing to disagree means. Its been discussed, and the end result is I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me, and that's basically that; that's all it means. I don't agree for a second that the Silver Age was in any way shape or form inferior to post-Crisis, and will never ever submit to that. Me just being comfortable with the simple fact that you feel much differently and that's okay isn't any sort of submission, nor vice versa.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-28-2016 at 10:48 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  11. #56
    Incredible Member victorsage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shredder View Post
    The thing about Pre-Crisis Superman, is that I think most people still think of that Superman over others due to all the continuity the Pre-Crisis Superman had. Whether they realize it or not. Superboy. Supergirl. Krypto. Different colored/powered Kryptonite, Kandor. Phantom Zone. Ect. It's all stuff that continuously gets brought back into different continuities time and time again due to how much of that stuff is recognizable to Superman readers. I think another thing about the Pre-Crisis Superman is the Chris Reeve films. Which I always felt was more akin to the Pre-Crisis/Earth-1 universe, than the Golden Age/Earth-Two incarnation. Which, to me, makes sense since the Reeve movies were made almost without exception filmed during the Pre-Crisis/Earth-1 reign.
    I think Reeve's influence is way overblown, especially when it comes to people who are in their twenties to mid 30s now. When I was coming to age Reeves was an older version of Superman that was a bit corny, and outdated. I never understood how him kissing Lois worked, or why he threw a plastic S symbol as a weapon. For many people my age in that regard the cartoons had more influence, as did the tv series like Lois and Clark as well as (later of course) Smallville. There are aspects of the Silver Age that survived, but more so on the strength of elements of the Bronze Age then the Silver. The only show I can think of that's really close to the Silver Age, was the Superman that appeared in Batman the Brave and the Bold.

    In many ways George Reeves had more influence in that regard, because George Reeves "Clark first" style of story telling took over to such a point that eventually Smallville was nothing but Clark, no Superboy, no Superman. Just Clark.

    The Post-Crisis version of Superman certainly has enjoyed great exposure over the years as well, and though I can't honestly say I was ever engrossed as a reader with the Pre-Crisis style of storytelling when it comes to Superman as I was with the Post-Crisis version, I do think that characters and elements introduced during the Silver Age/Pre-Crisis Universe will always loom large over any of the subsequent Supermen DC decides to go with to be perfectly honest.
    Only if by elements you mean story points. If by elements you mean story style, and themes the Silver Age is long dead. You may see a child concentrated version of Superman again, the way Batman The Brave and The Bold was, but as far as an audience at large goes I don't see it ever happening again. In certain ways even Christopher Reeve was beyond what you'd ever see in a Silver Age comics, Silver Age Superman never had to answer what color Lois' underwear was. Say what you want about Margot Kidder, her Lois Lane was a real woman, and not the annoying little girl that Silver Age Lois acted like.

    There is a big difference from this:

    To this:

  12. #57
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    OK, we are all playing fanfic here. So here's my take.

    The Morrison-like ending.

    New52 Superman creates the Super League (which includes Superman-like characters like Conner Kent, Ulysses and new52 Lois Lane who has become SuperWoman).

    The Super League - which, in a distant future, will become the Superman Squad (the same which we have seen in All Star Superman) - exits our continuum and begins protecting the megaverse from the outside, so to speak (more or less like President Superman does at the end of Multiversity) with New52 Superman at helm. The Super-character who is assigned to our earth is SuperWoman.

    SuperDad becomes fully integrated in DC continuity. The end.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I love the post-Flashpoint Superman. For lack of a better term, he was "my Superman". In my first memory of Superman (watching a Fleischer cartoon at age 3), I already knew who he was, but I quickly understood that there were inconsistencies in how Superman worked, and I liked every version of the character.

    But the best was the post-Flashpoint version, partially because I started reading comics on a monthly basis with the reboot, partially because he was a very successful mix of several extant versions of Superman that I already liked. He had the attitude, he was a roughneck like the Golden and Bronze Age versions. He did the impossible on a daily basis like the Silver Age version, and hung around with the Legion as a kid like that version had too. He was the classic, proletarian GA Superman ramped up and given SF trappings inspired by the last 73 years of comics, and reconfigured for the contemporary world. He was perfect.

    Not everyone got him right, but when they didn't, it was either because they needed a script editor and several rewrites (eg Lobdell) or they were writing him like the pre-Flashpoint version (Snyder, Johns, etc). Morrison nailed his character together. Pak nailed him too- nailed him right to the cross. He wrote him so well, it bothered me that from Action 25 on, Pak never let him win an unequivocal victory, not even once. Still, he was well written as a character even then, even during Truth, which so many hate, and I don't fundamentally think Superman's had more poor stories than good ones since 2011- just not enough great ones.

    All of which is a lead-up to me saying that I've sort of stages-of-griefed my way through the day since finding out that "my" Superman was going to be replaced by arguably my least favorite version of the character. It looks like he'll still be headlining Superman, but not Action, not even Justice League. Superman being replaced had been my greatest fear for rebirth, but I didn't think I had to worry. I just thought that I had to worry about him being written like his past self. Now I see I was overly optimistic, and my favorite version of my favorite character is being edged out of his own comic by a has-been, if I may allow myself to be a little bitter. Now, I can only hope that Superman is a well-written, popular book, and that "my" Superman doesn't slowly get Connor Hawke'd into limbo, until the only collective memory of his five year tenure as THE Superman is that it started off well and was trashed by bad writing that I can't convince anyone was mostly pretty decent.


    Just for the record of the ongoing fight though: Both the pre and post Crisis Supermen were awesome, and better than the pre-Flashpoint Superman that a series of retcons slowly turned post-Crisis Supes into. If they'd brought back the pre-Crisis Superman rather than the pre-Flashpoint one, I might not be so bitter. Oh, and Chris Reeve's acting is unimpeachable, but his Superman and his movies were bad, and should have been more like the comics at the time, kitsch accusations be damned.

  14. #59
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I hate to disappoint you more buddy, I really do, but he's not in Superman either. Superdad is the star of both books. The popular theory right now, and this part is just theory, is that the New 52 version is being killed off in Rebirth, and is Didio's stupid "I've-learned-nothing-from-my-mistakes-during-my-DC-tenure" controversial moment. But maybe there's hope yet he's just shunted off for this current gimmick and will be back. But he's definitely not the star of either Superman book come June. Sucks I know but so it goes.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  15. #60
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    I was more referring to Silver Age and Bronze Age as a whole, which is why I continued saying Pre-Crisis rather than being more distinct with Silver Age Superman, and Bronze Age Superman. To me, the Reeve/Donner films were more influenced by the Pre-Crisis Superman than the Golden Age. Which, in their defense, is justifiable since that incarnation was still being featured, and had been featured for some time. As a consequence, especially under Geoff Johns, some of that Donner/Reeve stuff was brought back during the mid-2000's Pre-Flashpoint era, much like how a Supergirl, who was actually Superman's cousin, as opposed to a shape shifting alien or what have you, was incorporated in 2003/2004-ish. Just as she was during the Pre-Crisis era.

    By elements, I mean alot of the mythology people know of Superman, was introduced during the Silver/Bronze age/Pre-Crisis era of Superman comics. Not specifically the then DC-art of storytelling. Which left alot to be desired, but what was actually introduced. Stuff that continues to be re-introduced in succeeding versions of Superman. Post-COIE, and even in shows like Smallville. Which, if memory serves, also had a Donner/Reeve influence though much like the comics, not being specifically tied to it.

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