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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Of course he failed. If he hadn't failed he wouldn't have been rebooted. If he hadn't have failed the whole new 52 probably wouldn't have happened as it was born as a whole from the distinct need to fix what at that point in time was an irrevocably broken Superman. Likewise, to be fair, at a point in time the Bronze Age Superman ended up failing, hence the need to reboot him at that time. But yes, pre-Flashpoint Superman as of August 2011 was dead as dead could be. A complete unsalvageable mess.
    I don't think that I agree on this point. I mean, Grounded is probably the worst Superman story ever, but IMHO it didn't ruin Superman's reputation beyond repair. It was just an extremely bad storyline, but every character sooner or later is involved in a bad storyline, and even if this happened with Superman more often than not in the latest 20 years, it's not like they made Superman a murderer or something like that.

    By the way, maybe it is true that most people recognize Superman because of some silly elements of the 50s (multi-colored kryptonite) or the 70s (Reeve), but all of these elements had been entirely re-introduced way before the New52. I didn't read Lois and Clark regularly, so I don't really know which version of the characters was used there, but from a strictly technical point of view pre-FP Superman ISN'T Byrne Superman, but rather Byrne Superman mixed with Waid Superman (Birthright) and Johns Superman (Secret Origins).

    Frankly speaking, I think that the only reason they made Superman so strongly involved in FP was because they wanted to get rid of the marriage - which, more or less, was the ONLY thing which couldn't be erased with the umpteenth soft retcon.

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    It wasn't Grounded that ruined the pre-Flashpoint Superman. Grounded was just the last straw because it was another in a long string of terrible stories, the worst of that long string to boot. But it wasn't one singular thing, one simple bad story doesn't ruin a character. It was the end result of years of mismanagement and mangled history. I think far more than the marriage, for instance (which I do agree with a motivation because it got stale and began hurting both characterizations), was his shoddy foundation. You didn't even know this guy's history anymore because he had three different origin stories running concurrently and no one really knew which one was the standard anymore. With that in mind, it was Superman #200 that really started the destruction in motion, in my opinion. That was when the seemingly steadfast decision was made to replace the byrne origin with the Birthright origin. Which would have been fine but then IC happened, which changed stuff apparently but confused readers as to what as Birthright didn't seem to mesh anymore. So maybe was Byrne's origin mostly back? Was it more a Silver Age-type deal, since we were getting some of those elements back? Who knew. DC sure didn't. This would eventually then lead to Secret Origin, which in of itself was a complete disaster because it was less interested in shoring up a confusing continuity than it was to function as a big prologue to New Krypton....a storyline that in of itself got so bad that tbe plug was pulled on it while Secret Origin was still in publication, leading to rewrites where the back half of the tale just became a run-of-the-mill Superman vs. Parasite showdown. By the time it was over, with New Krypton blown up literally and figuratively, SO just became one huge waste of time. So knowing this guy is that same mix of all three? That's a condemnation of the move to me, not a positive. DC fans like a strong continuity, and that was just long-gone with Superman before Flashpoint. That being the same mold this version born from Convergence is? It'l be why I think Superdad will ultimately fail in this role as "the" Superman. His own history is a mess, and now he's operating in a place that isn't his world. Fans know, and it it'll always be a big mahtzah ball hanging out whether its brought up often or not.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-29-2016 at 12:10 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  3. #63
    Back for noon feeding The Shredder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    By the way, maybe it is true that most people recognize Superman because of some silly elements of the 50s (multi-colored kryptonite) or the 70s (Reeve), but all of these elements had been entirely re-introduced way before the New52. I didn't read Lois and Clark regularly, so I don't really know which version of the characters was used there, but from a strictly technical point of view pre-FP Superman ISN'T Byrne Superman, but rather Byrne Superman mixed with Waid Superman (Birthright) and Johns Superman (Secret Origins).
    From what I can recall, it seems like the editorial following Byrne's Superman somewhat shied away from re-introducing Pre-Crisis elements/characters, just as they were, into the Post-Crisis world. Which is why we never got a Supergirl who was actually Superman's cousin, or a acknowledgement of a Superboy career. I believe there was actually a "Krypto" that was just a regular dog introduced, as opposed to a bona fide kryptonian dog.

    But a few years prior to Waid's Birthright, and definitely by the time of Johns' Secret Origin, alot of the Pre-Crisis stuff crept back into Post-Crisis continuity. As it continued to do during the New52, if even just on a surface level, it was there. I would even consider Lex Luthor's green/purple battle armor suit a call back to the Pre-Crisis era, since it was 1st introduced in that era. In some ways, it's surprising DC refrained from alot of Pre-Crisis material from 1986-sometime in the late 90's/early 2000's.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I hate to disappoint you more buddy, I really do, but he's not in Superman either. Superdad is the star of both books.
    Hm. Yep, took a look at the solicits and it looks like you're right. So what's this image?

    Rebirth-Superman1.jpg

    It appears to be associated with Superman but his boots are red and his "S" is sharp at the tail like Kal's has been rather than rounded like the "S" Superdad is sporting, and it's clearly not Superdad's outfit. This image had spurred speculation on the Superman Homepage that Kal got to keep Superman while Clark was in Action and pretty much everything else. Guess the artists just messed up.

    Dammit. I'm pissed about this stupid unboot all over again.

  5. #65
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    That was a submission when the new costume was still under design. Superdad is all we get--or all readers get I should say, I dropped everything--for the foreseeable future.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-29-2016 at 12:17 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shredder View Post
    From what I can recall, it seems like the editorial following Byrne's Superman somewhat shied away from re-introducing Pre-Crisis elements/characters, just as they were, into the Post-Crisis world. Which is why we never got a Supergirl who was actually Superman's cousin, or a acknowledgement of a Superboy career. I believe there was actually a "Krypto" that was just a regular dog introduced, as opposed to a bona fide kryptonian dog.

    But a few years prior to Waid's Birthright, and definitely by the time of Johns' Secret Origin, alot of the Pre-Crisis stuff crept back into Post-Crisis continuity. As it continued to do during the New52, if even just on a surface level, it was there. I would even consider Lex Luthor's green/purple battle armor suit a call back to the Pre-Crisis era, since it was 1st introduced in that era. In some ways, it's surprising DC refrained from alot of Pre-Crisis material from 1986-sometime in the late 90's/early 2000's.
    Well, technically speaking they found several ways to re-introduce SA elements. Krypto as a Super-Dog was reintroduced TWICE. The first time happened during the Return to Krypton storyline - which was firmly in Byrne-continuity - and the second time with Secret Origins, which was basically a soft retcon. Anyway, that doesn't change the fact that pre-FP Superman was basically a revamped version of the SA character mixed with Byrne elements. But frankly speaking it's not that postFP was thematically THAT different from his pre-FP incarnation, except for some details (the Champion of Oppressed thing) which nobody really followed (and IMHO could be introduced in preFP Supes with another retcon). I repeat it, the only HUGE difference was the relationship between Superman and Lois and some background elements (the dead Kents).

    DC fans like a strong continuity, and that was just long-gone with Superman before Flashpoint.
    I agree that preFP continuity had become rather messy, but IMHO it's not enough of a reason to say that preFP Superman was ruined beyond repair. The character - in his fundamental elements - was still rather solid and could still be used for many stories. And a messy continuity could always be repaired with a miniseries or something like that. I agree that SuperDad will probably fail, but I don't think that it will happen because the character belongs to a dead continuity or postFP world is so different from preFP. He will fail because its most important elements - Jon in particular - haven't been introduced in an organic way (as it happened with Damian Wayne), and having two Supermen around is just confusing.

  7. #67
    Incredible Member victorsage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shredder View Post
    I was more referring to Silver Age and Bronze Age as a whole, which is why I continued saying Pre-Crisis rather than being more distinct with Silver Age Superman, and Bronze Age Superman. To me, the Reeve/Donner films were more influenced by the Pre-Crisis Superman than the Golden Age. Which, in their defense, is justifiable since that incarnation was still being featured, and had been featured for some time. As a consequence, especially under Geoff Johns, some of that Donner/Reeve stuff was brought back during the mid-2000's Pre-Flashpoint era, much like how a Supergirl, who was actually Superman's cousin, as opposed to a shape shifting alien or what have you, was incorporated in 2003/2004-ish. Just as she was during the Pre-Crisis era.
    I use the distinction, because technically Golden Age, Silver Age, and Bronze Age are all Pre-Crisis. I have nothing against the Bronze Age, but the Silver Age style and themes are dead. With regards to "Supergirl" as you said she was brought back as Clark's cousin, but she has very little in common with her Silver Age counterpart which is my point. Silver Age Supergirl was Superman's "back up" that's all she ever was in those stories. She had Comet the Super Horse, who wanted to sleep with Supergirl and later Lois Lane, but besides that she mostly was just in the background. Her biggest impact is in a Jerry Siegel what if story when Lex Luthor kills Superman, and Supergirl is forced to take his place. So basically she didn't have much of any real impact until the Bronze Age, when she began to step out of Clark's shadow.

    In that regard I think it's more honest to talk about the Bronze Age, because what Silver Age ideas that are still in vogue are so, because they survived the Bronze Age. The Bronze Age was when ideas were allowed to change, and frankly forced to grow up. When Supergirl finally became "Supergirl" again in the time period you mean it, she had more in common with Bronze Age Powergirl, then any other character, especially Silver Age Supergirl. She is always trying to get out of Clark's shadow, well also being happy to have a family once again, a family that is connected completely to Clark. They take her in, the same way Powergirl was taken in by Lois and Clark on Earth-Two.

    Post Crisis Supergirl is not to the level of Bronze Age Supergirl, because she never had that hero moment that Bronze Age Supergirl had because of the Crisis.

    Now as far as the Reeve/Donner films go, for what affect they have now it is more of an echo, an a very faint one at that. The elements that are played to are largely done so only in half measures, and largely mean more to the people who grew up with that story. Most of the ideas from that universe have been scrapped. The idea of "Dork Kent" walking around falling down every 15 feet he walks, well running into people, and stuttering politely towards people is long gone. Superman when he is polite, is just that he's polite he doesn't cross over towards the cornier elements of that age. Lex Luthor will never be trying to break off California so he can sell "new" water front property along with is bubbling idiot side kicks. Nor is Lex ever again going to be happy to just rule over Australia. Basically my point is the tone of the Donner films will not be brought back to any great effect. That very idea is what held back Superman Returns, they tried to revive that style of Superman in an age that had long ago forgotten about him.

    On the other hand, even today, the version of Superman in MoS and BvS is much closer to Post Crisis, then New 52, or the Silver Age. The biggest difference is that Johnathan is dead now, where he was alive in Post Crisis world. The biggest influence that the new 52 has on the Superman from MoS is his costume, and little else. This is a Superman who spent time fighting crime, and doing small miracles in the background like Post Crisis Superman, he is not dressed in jeans and a t-shirt with an S on it telling people to do what he says. This Clark Kent saved people, and then left, usually leaving people scratching their heads about what exactly happened to save them. The same thing happened in the Post Crisis universe, Martha enjoyed collecting those kind of stories in her scrap book.

    The biggest affect you can say the Donner film has is that Jor-El is still around, and Zod is a bad guy. That's about it though. MoS Krypton is very similar to Post Crisis Krypton, not the Silver Age version, nor the Donnerverse version. Krypton is very much a broken society, which is why it falls.

    By elements, I mean alot of the mythology people know of Superman, was introduced during the Silver/Bronze age/Pre-Crisis era of Superman comics. Not specifically the then DC-art of storytelling. Which left alot to be desired, but what was actually introduced. Stuff that continues to be re-introduced in succeeding versions of Superman. Post-COIE, and even in shows like Smallville. Which, if memory serves, also had a Donner/Reeve influence though much like the comics, not being specifically tied to it.
    Sure certain aspects of the myth will be used from time to time, but those styles of stores, specifically the Silver Age style is dead. Audiences will not buy into those child like stories anymore. The Bronze Age in that regard has a much stronger influence on the modern age, mostly because it was created in order to force the DC universe to grow up a bit.

    Smallville had elements of the Donner films specifically because Reeve was still alive,and the creators loved that story, but Smallville is not really in the style of the Donnerverse. A lot of that has to do with the fact that it's a character driven narrative, but also because it showed Clark growing into the idea of wanting to be Superman. In that sense Smallville is a rejection of the Silver Age Superboy style story, and instead could fit into elements established in the Post Crisis world. Clark does not feel obligated to start being a superhero at the age of 16. When he does try to do something it's in a hidden fashion. When he does adopt an ID it's one that is nothing like what he would become (The Blur), even when real life superheros are a known thing (The JSA exist in Smallville because Clark is NOT the first hero). Indeed much like Post Crisis Superman, Clark does not put on the suit officially until he is working at the Daily Planet with Lois.

    The biggest Silver Age influence that Smallville had, was that Lex Luthor and Clark knew each other in Smallville. But he's already bald, and he's not a farmers son who wants to be a scientist, his the rich kid on the block who's father owns "Luthor Corps".

    As a final thought on this, I think the longest lasting influence the Donnerverse has had on Superman, is the idea that the "s" on Superman's chest means "hope"... which.... imo is rather silly.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorsage View Post
    As a final thought on this, I think the longest lasting influence the Donnerverse has had on Superman, is the idea that the "s" on Superman's chest means "hope"... which.... imo is rather silly.
    Didn't that come from Mark Waid?
    Anyway, I agree with some points of your analysis but IMHO you're not taking into account some aesthetic elements from the Donnerverse (which I never really loved) which IMHO seem to have a certain influence on the Superman universe (not strictly the comics one). The Supergirl TV series - which I don't really like, by the way - is rather Donner-esque IMHO.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member AlexanderLuthor's Avatar
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    After thinking this over:

    (1) The only Superman being solicited is pre-FP Superman
    (2) They seem intent on making Jon Kent Superboy
    (3) Solicits and Jurgens made a point that there will be a "new" Clark Kent around
    (4) They have to unwind the identity reveal
    (5) Shanghai Superman and Superwoman get their powers somehow

    My guess: N52 Supes either gives them up or his powers are otherwise transferred to N52 Lois (Superwoman) and Shanghai Superman. Pre-FP Superman has to take over as Supes and N52 Superman becomes just Clark Kent

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shredder View Post
    The thing about Pre-Crisis Superman, is that I think most people still think of that Superman over others due to all the continuity the Pre-Crisis Superman had. Whether they realize it or not. Superboy. Supergirl. Krypto. Different colored/powered Kryptonite, Kandor. Phantom Zone. Ect. It's all stuff that continuously gets brought back into different continuities time and time again due to how much of that stuff is recognizable to Superman readers. I think another thing about the Pre-Crisis Superman is the Chris Reeve films. Which I always felt was more akin to the Pre-Crisis/Earth-1 universe, than the Golden Age/Earth-Two incarnation. Which, to me, makes sense since the Reeve movies were made almost without exception filmed during the Pre-Crisis/Earth-1 reign.

    The Post-Crisis version of Superman certainly has enjoyed great exposure over the years as well, and though I can't honestly say I was ever engrossed as a reader with the Pre-Crisis style of storytelling when it comes to Superman as I was with the Post-Crisis version, I do think that characters and elements introduced during the Silver Age/Pre-Crisis Universe will always loom large over any of the subsequent Supermen DC decides to go with to be perfectly honest.

    My parents were kids during the Golden Age, comics were written for them back then as well. Mxyzptlk, The Prankster, Toyman, Superboy, Susie, all Siegel ideas from the Golden Age, and all kid friendly. Maybe they were products of editorial pressure, Siegel and Shuster had jobs, and pressure happens but they produced. Still they are kid friendly and that's why Wertham went after the industry he was afraid of the influenc on kids. Also, Bizarro, Braniac, the Phantom Zone, Zod, the Parasite, the Legion, Supergirl, infinite earths, tales from Smallville, these are ideas which still resonate with fans and are constantly mined for story ideas. Even Darkseid debuts in Jimmy Olsen at the tail end of the Silver Age. One other popular idea during the Silver Age Death of Superman stories. I see the Silver Age all over Superman even now. Plus they are coming back with the Supersons title, Bronze Age for sure but definite outgrowths of the Silver Ages love of imaginary tales(else worlds) and parallel universes. Silver age comics were definitely written for kids but they created a huge reservoir of ideas that comic fans still enjoy. And CBS's Supergirl, talk about family friendly and silver age influenced. Plus, what's wrong with comics written for kids? Kids deserve comics.
    Last edited by Johnny Thunders!; 03-29-2016 at 05:15 AM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Shredder View Post
    From what I can recall, it seems like the editorial following Byrne's Superman somewhat shied away from re-introducing Pre-Crisis elements/characters, just as they were, into the Post-Crisis world. Which is why we never got a Supergirl who was actually Superman's cousin, or a acknowledgement of a Superboy career. I believe there was actually a "Krypto" that was just a regular dog introduced, as opposed to a bona fide kryptonian dog.

    But a few years prior to Waid's Birthright, and definitely by the time of Johns' Secret Origin, alot of the Pre-Crisis stuff crept back into Post-Crisis continuity. As it continued to do during the New52, if even just on a surface level, it was there. I would even consider Lex Luthor's green/purple battle armor suit a call back to the Pre-Crisis era, since it was 1st introduced in that era. In some ways, it's surprising DC refrained from alot of Pre-Crisis material from 1986-sometime in the late 90's/early 2000's.
    It seems surprising to me only because it showed a lot of editorial discipline that DC doesn't really have anymore. The post-Crisis Superman set up by Byrne had a lot of rules that were mostly followed, but with some creative nods to the old continuity (like Krypto as a normal dog rescued by Bibbo, as you mentioned), that the creative teams followed through 1999. It helped that there was a lot of consistency in the writers and editors. But after Superman #150, the creative group got overhauled, and that's when it started going to hell. The creative teams that took over at the end of 1999, including Jeph Loeb and Joe Kelly, started throwing out the rules and bringing back what they wanted from the old continuity. Probably not coincidentally, they got a new editor shortly after taking over: Eddie Berganza.

    I tend to look at the Superman character in roughly 15-year eras (20 for the Golden Age), and because of those changes, I can definitely agree that pre-Flashpoint Superman is not the same as post-Crisis Superman. Birthright wasn't published until 2004, but the transition out of post-Crisis Superman began at the end of 1999.

  12. #72
    You guessed it mr_crisp's Avatar
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    New 52 Superman is going to go to that Limbo that all unused characters go to.
    The Gypsies had no home. The Doors had no bass.

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  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    From a new article they just posted:

    "Superman: Rebirth" and "Superman" will further establish that the pre-New 52 Superman from "Lois & Clark" is now the Superman of the DCU


    'Kay, I think I'm done here. Superman is now officially from another universe with a history so convoluted nobody even knows what it is anymore. DC officially doesn't know what it's doing.

  14. #74
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Yeah, stuff like that makes it seem like they're just done with the New 52 Superman, so I'm pretty much done with them. I'm guessing that LA Times article was wrong, and the Rebirth Special is going to concretely kill off the character. I'll find out second-hand though, because I'm sure as hell not buying it. Hell did you see the new JL #51 cover that they've changed (already changes) into being a past story featuring Dick Grayson meeting the League? They actually shadowed out Superman's face on the cover. Way add insult to injury with a completely unnecessary middle finger.

    I give it six months to a year before everyone hates this guy as well. DC is just poison to any Superman.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 03-29-2016 at 10:10 AM.
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  15. #75
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    They say Valiant is putting out some cool stuff. That Faith book looks like a classic Superman type character. And I read the first Bloodshot Reborn arc and it was pretty good. Has a very "What if the Punisher had Wolverine's powers" feel to it. Depending on what you're into.

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